The Freezer Again...

[toocrazy2yoo]

Practical, not scientific, but I see what I see..

I got curious seeing GMan's freezer thread and since I've been convinced the 0W20 M1 would be water in the freezer (prior to this), I decided to put on my own little Pepsi challenge. Freezer runs 14 below 0F. Took a quart of my new Mobil 1 0W20, a quart of 5W20 Havoline, one of 5W20 Pennzoil Platinum (May 11,2006 Mfg date), and a quart of 10W30 Pennzoil Platinum (Sept2005 MFG date) and a quart of yellow bottle Pennzoil Dino 5W20. Pennzoil Johnny can explain the Pennzoil manufacturing dates and why they might be significant to the Platinum. I poured off into other (like brand) bottles about a third of each quart that was going into the freezer to give each some head room and into the freezer they went this morning.

After 10 hours, I cracked the lids on each as they came out to allow the air in to expand the bottles, and I can categorically state the following based on the feel and splash within the bottle, thinnest to thickest:
PP 5W20, Havoline 5W20 were thinnest by a wide margin feel-wise (PP a bit looser than the Havoline, but barely) over the next two, the 0W20 Mobil 1 and 10W30 Pennzoil Platinum. These two were a dead heat. The 5W20 PP and Havoline were CLEARLY thinner at that temperature than the 0W20 Mobil1. The Pennzoil Yellow Bottle dino was the thickest of all right out of the freezer, which really surprised me, given the cold weather performance of the dino Havoline. The 5W20 Pennzoil dino was thicker even than the 10W30 Pennzoil Platinum right out of the freezer.

As I said, I'm cognitive of the idea this isn't scientific, but it is rather practical, and the eyes and mitts and ears don't lie. Soooo, given that my previous assumptions have been challenged here before, I ask the following:


1> How is the Havoline 5W20 dino hanging in at these temps very nearly as thin the 5W20 Pennzoil Platinum, not to mention very much thinner than the 0W20 Mobil 1?

2>How are the 10W30 PP and OW20 Mobil 1 so close in thickness at that temp (14 below, that is) I can hardly tell them apart? Or is viscosity measured and labeled of absolutely no account in an experiment such as this? The differences are dramatic and bear no practical relationship in terms of what I would have thought the differences would be between an 0W, three 5Ws and a 10W in what would be, around here, extreme winter temps.

Any light shedding to be done here, or was this test just fulla poo?

 

[Cooper]

Well, I can't shed too much light on it, other than the pour points are different for these oils. You can have a 10w30 that has a lower pour point than a 5w20. But, scientifically, I don't exactly know why. Might want to ask G-Man, AEHaas, Johnny, MolaKule, Terry, Pablo, Gary Allen.....etc....you get the point. It is definitely a good test, and it gives some insight to what not to use in the winter months.

 

[G-MAN]

Quote:

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1> How is the Havoline 5W20 dino hanging in at these temps very nearly as thin the 5W20 Pennzoil Platinum, not to mention very much thinner than the 0W20 Mobil 1?

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I'd say the healthy slug of AN in the Mobil 1 is negatively affecting the pour point. The Havoline (was this DS or pre-DS?) is benefiting from high VI Group II+ and a good PPD additive.

Since your freezer gets considerably colder than mine, I'd like to see you test Valvoline's straight 30.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

This was old reliable Havoline, pre-DS. AN? Refresh my memory, can ya? Also, if the pour point is being retarded in this test, so to speak, does that translate to a longer period from sump-to-pump at the same temps?

A straight 30 would be goo, wouldn't it? Ok, G, tell ya what, tell me what it is, I'll get it and throw it in there tomorrow and tell you what it does. Dino? Syn?

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

AN turns out to be too short to search, G, sorry.

 

[wileyE]

off topic, but have done the "freezer" with 2 cycle oils for snowmobiles and you also find some suprises in how thin they felt. Added an incline race to the test, sheet metal set at 45deg, 1 drop of oil at top and see how far/fast it runs, and what kind of streak it left behind. This was interesting too and din't "jive" with the results of the freezer test like you'd think.

 

[Merkava_4]

I'd like to put in my request for a freezer test of Synpower 5W-40 at minus 14F for your next round of tests.

Call me stupid, but what is AN abbreviated for?

 

[G-MAN]

Quote:

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This was old reliable Havoline, pre-DS. AN? Refresh my memory, can ya? Also, if the pour point is being retarded in this test, so to speak, does that translate to a longer period from sump-to-pump at the same temps?

A straight 30 would be goo, wouldn't it? Ok, G, tell ya what, tell me what it is, I'll get it and throw it in there tomorrow and tell you what it does. Dino? Syn?

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AN = Alkylated Naphthalenes.

The straight 30 I'd like you to "freeze" is Valvoline Conventional Premium SAE 30. That's what I put in my freezer and it was still pourable at 0F. At -14F it's going to be thick, but I'm willing to bet it will still pour.

NB: Make sure you get the current SM rated Valvoline SAE 30.

 

[JAG]

Kudos for testing and posting it here. I think a different method is needed though. The cup tilting method should work better. You need same amount of each oil in identical cups. Also need to not put too much oil into the cup so when you tilt it, about half of the bottom surface is uncovered by the receded oil. Put the cups on a totally flat surface simultaneously and tilt the surface, then drop it level and watch how long it takes the oils to settle out. It's still not great but not too shabby.

 

[Merkava_4]

Quote:

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AN = Alkylated Naphthalenes.

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Thank you sir

 

[cdherman]

JAG hints at a problem with your test -- the bottles are different from MFG to MFG. If the bottles are different, you nay percieve the shlosh to be different as well. Or at least potentialy. You have too many variables. Use a standardized container in some fashion.

 

[Camu Mahubah]

I feel the same as Jag... one must eliminate variables...
some empty clear water bottles are what I use...dry of course...Good Effort though...I really enjoy reading these freezer tests!

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Well, there is the difference in the bottles, the M1 bottles being wider at the tops than the Pennzoil and Havoline bottles by a wide margin. To control that, I got all the bottles to well below the narrowing in the upper third of the bottles. Also, because the pressure inside the bottles would have dropped as they chilled, I loosened the caps, allowing pressure to equalize to ambient just before the tesing so as to provide equal slosh room. All bottles have the clear stripe up one side so I could see the level of oil remaining (2/3 in each). My observations as to which were viscous or not were reached by how fast the oil moved (one relative to the other) off the stripe in a steady to and fro tilt, and also with vigorous shaking up and down to judge the slosh-factor. This, in an attempt to gauge the surface tension of each oil at 14 below. It's very clear, quite without talking myself into any distinctions, that the Havoline dino 5W20 and Pennzoil Platinum 5W20 are, while neck and neck with one another, MUCH thinner at that temp than the 0W20 Mobil 1 and 10W30 Pennzoil Platinum.

The Pennzoil 5W20 dino simply isn't in this game on any level. It took several violent shakes to break the surface tension of this oil at this temperature in order to produce even the slightest splash within the bottle. Otherwise, it simply moved as a heavy viscous mass, quite like a heavy gear oil at room temperature. It's just very clear using this method to determine which oils are thicker at this temp. The head space I allow within the bottles gives me that room to judge.

My control in all of this of course is with the samples back up to a relatively toasty 80 degrees in the garage outside the freezer, I can tell no difference in slosh, viscosity or "feel" between any of the samples, except possibly, if I really stretch my attitude (which isn't at all necessary when the samples are cold), I can feel a very slight difference between the 10W30 Pennzoil Platinum and the rest of the 20 weights. I also didn't want to get into pouring them into dishes before I chilled them as I was thinking volatility issues might come into play with exposure to outside air, or interface issues with ceramic dishes vs. the plastic bottles. As all bottles have the same feel between brands, and all have the triangle-2 recycle code on the bottom, I have to assume the bottle materials are identical other than color.

Again, whether these differences translate to reduced flow-rates through the sump, the filter and on to the reduced-diameter oil passages in many of todays smaller engines, appropriate to the brands as tested here I have no idea. My suspicion is it means a little something at start-up, but how much, and how to quantify wear rate differences between the brands and viscosities is impossible to determine, and I'm not advancing any theories as to any of that.

Mine are merely the inquisitive musings of a layman that sees the ads, reads the viscosity ratings and theories on thick vs. thin, 0W vs. 5W. Now, my assumptions are challenged quite clearly by the personal observation that the Mobile 1 0W20 oil is thicker, as a practical matter, than either 5W20 synthetic, and the same as a 10W-30 synthetic. The only thing I've confirmed for myself is Doc Haas' assertion that until we get up to operating temps (especially when we start at 14-below zero) NO oil is quite thin enough.

 

[mechtech2]

Thanks for doing the testing.
I consider it very valid .
I would never have guessed the final results, though!

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Quote:

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Quote:

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This was old reliable Havoline, pre-DS. AN? Refresh my memory, can ya? Also, if the pour point is being retarded in this test, so to speak, does that translate to a longer period from sump-to-pump at the same temps?

A straight 30 would be goo, wouldn't it? Ok, G, tell ya what, tell me what it is, I'll get it and throw it in there tomorrow and tell you what it does. Dino? Syn?

---

AN = Alkylated Naphthalenes.

The straight 30 I'd like you to "freeze" is Valvoline Conventional Premium SAE 30. That's what I put in my freezer and it was still pourable at 0F. At -14F it's going to be thick, but I'm willing to bet it will still pour.

NB: Make sure you get the current SM rated Valvoline SAE 30.

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Ok, Gee, I got the Valvoline SAE 30 in SM. $$$2.99, pretty expensive for a single-grade dino, dood! "Top choice of US auto mechanics". White bottle, VV159 is the part #, but it says nothing about being Premium. That title is reserved for the multi-vis oils, at least at Advance Auto.

You're in luck, the freezer was showing -17F this morning. I can't believe it's going to flow if the 5W20 Pennzoil wouldn't even splash @5 or so degrees warmer (I figure the surface temps rise instantly a couple of degrees right off the bat, right?). I'll check it every couple of hours. If it reaches a point where it won't even slosh before tonight, I'll letcha know.

 

[pbm]

The Pennzoil 5W20 dino simply isn't in this game on any level. It took several violent shakes to break the surface tension of this oil at this temperature in order to produce even the slightest splash within the bottle.



Is it possible that there was some moisture in the bottle that froze-up causing a thin layer of ice to form on top of the oil ? I only ask because I am trying to figure out how a 5w20 could (apparently) flow slower than a 10w30.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Boy I love it when the thinest oils around and are supposedly going to reduce wear at start up baffles the group!!!

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Well, since water doesn't ride on TOP of oil, I'd say no way. This is SM/GF4 picked up at the .87 sales from Home Depot last summer. First I've ever popped the top was to pour off about a third into other bottles to give it room to shake.

JB, I'm not sure WHAT the thinnest oils around are, per se, but the pre-DS Havoline in 5W20 is about what I expected all of the others to be, frankly. The old SM/GF4 Havoline was a great oil by all accounts, and it certainly performs at low temp, right there with the PP 5W20. Assuming of course, that this test is truly indicative of cold weather performance in any way. I haven't the engineering gravitas to say whether this applies in any way shape or form to startup conditions in an engine. I have a feeling an oil pump has the ability to churn the oil a little more effectively than my shaking the plastic bottle the oil came in..

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

G-man, your Valvoline SAE30 is somewhere between the 5W20 Pennzoil and a bottle of VSOT. Thicker than the Pennzoil for sure. It would pour out, but not efficiently at these temps after five hours in the freezer. Let ya know how it is in a couple of hours.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

G-Mahn!

Locked up, boss..No splash, upside down, no pour. It only begins to drift out of the bottle as it warms. If that's considered the pour point, I probably wouldn't have it in the engine past November there, September here. What do they advertise as a pour point on this stuff?