Spin on trans filter and engine oil filters same?

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ExDelayed

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I picked up a external trans filter today. I know that a bypass system would be better, but for now this is what I can afford. I did think ahead and picked up a mounting plate that has dual inputs and dual outputs so if I add a bypass later there will now be a spot for it.

Anyway, the guy at the parts store was telling me that the trans oil filter and an engine oil filter are different. I think hes full of crap. Looking at the catalog, it listed the spin on trans filter (TransDapt 1156) and also listed it as being able to be used where a Fram PH8A would be. Both of these, I know are 3/4-16 threads. What would be the harm in running a Mobil 1, a Purolator Pure One, or equivalent when the time comes to change it? It got ARX'd today so that time is coming up real soon.

-Jon
 
Stop into a parts store that will let you look into a big filter catalog...any brand, WIX, Purolator, Baldwin, etc. Look in the section that shows the dimensions of each filter and the usage. You'll find some with your thread, the external size you need (don't want it to be too big), and some will be listed for lube, some for transmission, and some for lube & trans. If you find one that fits and is listed for transmissions don't assume that you can cross-reference to another brand. You probably can't. If you want another brand, look into that catalog in the same way. I bought a WIX filter that is listed for lube & transmissions, and the cross-reference to Baldwin is for lube only.


Ken
 
Jon: The fact that my uncle asked me a similar question about his RV transmission filter recently, coupled with the fact that I was bored this morning, I thought your question might make for a nice half-hour research project...

I suspect you're primarily concerned about filter MEDIA compatibility, among other things..? If so, I don't have a definitive answer, but here's some helpful anecdotal info:

The Filter Manufacturers' Council tech sheet "Filtration Media" (link at the Baldwin Filters website) addresses your thoughts with a comment, "...media designed for oil fitration cannot be effectively used for air filtration, and air filtration media cannot be used for coolant filtration, etc." Motor oils and ATFs are much more similar than dissimilar in the composition (at least when compared to other liquids such as coolant, gasoline, etc.), and as far as ATF's "thickness," the link below describes DexronIII/Mercon as an SAE 10w-20 oil (ATFs are not normally designated an SAE weight):
http://www.westpenn.com/sheets/atf.html

The MSDS link below confirms that ATF starts with your basic "Lubricating Base Oil - Severely Refined Petroleum Distillate." Sounds very similar to...you guessed it, motor oil. (Link deleted -- too long.)

Based on this anecdotal info, I personally wouldn't see any problem with using a "motor oil" media with a transmission. But there's other issues such as total media area (easy enough to address this -- how big does an actual "transmission filter" compare to a particular "motor oil" filter?), and bypass valve presence and setting.

This transmission filter is "6 micron," suggesting that finer filtration (PureOne, AC Ultraguard, Baldwin, Mobil 1, etc.) is best:
http://www.oilguard.com/Merchant4/m...tm&Product_Code=LFS+22825&Category_Code=other

The Baldwin #B-2 filter, compatible with the PH8A, is described as an 8 psi bypass "Microlite Full-Flow Lube Spin-on (also used as Hydraulic or Transmission)."
http://catalog.baldwinfilter.com

TransDapt #1156 doesn't seem to exist in the common filter cross-reference sites. If you can view one, take note of the filter base and presence of a bypass valve. You can then determine that "It's a Purolator (or Champion, Fram, etc.) base plate," another helpful hint.

At this point my SUSPICION is that you'd do just fine buying any PH8A compatible filter with a low bypass setting of around 8 psi to be safe (settings usually vary from 8-22 psi), preferably a large total media area version of one of the premium, fine-filtering brands mentioned above. An educated guess, but a good one, I think.

[ March 06, 2004, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: TC ]
 
I have often wondered the same thing.

My '96 Saturn has a spin on transmission filter. I can tell you from cutting them open, that they are different (at least for my app.). The transmission filter has a much thicker can (about 2 times at thick at the oil filter). The mounting gasket is also much thicker and stiff than any oil filter I have ever seen. But inside, they look about the same as any oil filter???

I have cut open three different brands and all three were exactly the same (Napa, Wix, and AC Delco).

Brian
 
Vader and I discussed external transmission filter selection on an Impala forum when I put in my external Permacool. He said he thought I should be more concerned with flow than fine filtering, because any spinon filter is a huge leap forward from the in pan filter a 4L60E comes with. I find it real hard to argue that logic. A transmissions number on killer is heat, if you restrict cooling flow you will retain more heat. Plus transmissions move a large volume of fluid, I am pretty sure a larger volume than an engine but I could be wrong never seen real flow volumes for an engine.

I will be changing the filter on that system soon, right now it is a Permacool filter(came with the kit) and is a Fram
thumbsdown.gif
PH8 equivelant. Just my $.02, I am not an oil expert like many of the fine folks here, but thought these ideas at least worth consideration.
 
Here's an example of a transmission filter:
http://catalog.baldwinfilter.com/PartSpecification.asp?VehicleRef=2&partnumber=B252

Note that they specifically say "Microlite Transmission Spin-on." Here's a different filter, Baldwin B134, "Microlite Full-Flow Lube Spin-on." Here's another, Baldwin B2, "Microlite Full-Flow Lube Spin-on (Also Used as Hydraulic or Transmission)."

There is an internal difference in filters for lube only, lube or transmission, or transmission only.

I tried cross-referencing a Baldwin transmission filter number to WIX...the result was lube only. Each brand will have slightly different filters. I'd say to pick a brand, look into the big catalog, and find one that fits and also says that it's made for transmissions. Why not...the price is the same and the protection is better.


Ken
 
This does all make for an intresting read. I was just wondering how in Trans-Dapt's book how they were comparing it to an 8A. They were doing so in such a way that it sounded like it could be used in a lube application.

Personally, I would think that a bypass in a trans spin on filter would be a good thing. Then, if you are pushing more fluid then the filter could handle, the pressure would increase inside and the bypass would open, saving the trans, right?

I will inspect the TD #1156 further tonight and see what I can find. Since we already know that it crosses with an 8A, the thread pitch is obviously a 3/4-16.
 
Mine are aftermarket parts. I picked it up to give my car an actual transmission filter, since all it has from the factory is a debris screen.
rolleyes.gif
 
A automatic trasmission oil pump typically generates about 100+ psig as I recall (turbo hydramatic). I therefor expect that the can and media are quite different from an engine oil filter. My Subaru external trans filter looks like an engine oil filter untill you lift it as it weights about 1/2 again heaver than the standard engine filter of about the same size. This is one area I would not experiment in as there is too much to loose and nothing to gain. Ed Hayes
 
Like that song goes, "Whooop! There it is!" I -- and probably a few others -- suspected we were missing something in the equation, and thanks to Eddie for pointing it out. I did a quick search and quickly verified Ed's comment with, of all things, a technical bulletin for DeLorean auto transmissions: "The pressure should be 113 PSI±3 when the automatic transmission fluid temperature is at normal operating temperature." (Car ENGINES typically have oil pressures anywhere between 40-90 psi.)
http://www.dmcnews.com/bulletins/ST-16-10.81.html

Don't know which supplier's off-the-shelf transmissions those stainless steel rides used, but it's safe to say they operate in similar fashion to others' transmissions. At the very least this would suggest using a thick-shelled motor oil filter such as Mobil 1 or K&N, with a shell around 0.0175", rather than the more typical 0.0130" (first link below). Mobil 1 has claimed "In Hydrostatic Burst Pressure Tests, Mobil 1 reached 601 psi before failure, while the nearest competitor failed at 303 psi."
http://www.overboost.com/story.asp?id=1143 http://www.unofficialbmw.com/all/engine/all_mobil_1_filters.html

Or, simply go the safe route as Ed suggested and install a "tranny" filter, or at least one that mentions "transmission" as an application, such as the Baldwin B-2. (Baldwins are heavy duty filters for commercial/industrial service.) Also, the Baldwin media filtered almost as fine as the top-ranked PureOne media in the "Mercruiser" study (link below), with largest/smallest pores measured at 25/11 microns PureOne, and 29/14 Baldwin. Lastly, I personally can't see a drawback to having a bypass valve in such an application -- NOT having one might be a problem, I would suspect..?
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001279

[ March 08, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: TC ]
 
I am sure that the fluid pressure out to the coolers is not as high as we are discussing here.

There are high internal pressures for clutch and band applications.

The pressure at the cooler lines goes to the radiator, don't forget, and often uses hoses and ordinary radiator hose clamps.

I don't have any references here, but I'll check further.

Also, those who have taken loose a line to pump out their fluid, you don't think you are seeing 100 + psi there, do you ?
 
Internal transmission pressures at least on a 4L60E can reach as high as 300psi in reverse, and still top 200psi in forward gears, but as dkcase said that is not sent out to the cooler. Transmission guy told me he couldn't see a cooler seeing anything over 40psi.

My Permacool kit came with instructions and here are the recommendations.
tight fit / long
permacool 81043 81008
AC PF13 pf2
fram ph43 ph8a
lee lf16 lf1
motorcraft fl173a fl1a
NAPA 1068 1515
purolator per17 per1a
wix 51068 51515

The "a" at the end is a recurring theme, maybe it signifies the hydrolic rating??????????
 
Well there ya have it, straight from the horsey's mouth (Permacool). I think these are all garden variety Ford V-8 oil filters, correct? Good posts, DJ and dkcase. Although one caveat might be that not ALL aftermarket transmission filters have such low pressure filter loops..??? But at least for the Permacools, mystery solved. I still say to go with fine filtration per the "Mercruiser" study link above, in order, PureOne, AC, and Baldwin.

[ March 09, 2004, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: TC ]
 
Ok, I'm lost. Are all you guys refering to 04 models or what? External spin on transmission filter? Wow. That sounds pretty good. Maybe these are all aftermarket parts that ya'll or somebody previous installed.
 
Any of the filters that use cellulose or Micro glass are compatible with both fluids.

Other filter replacements to consider are the "small" (relative term) hydraulic filters. They to use the 3/4-16 threads and have the same gasket size and are rated for higher flow and finer filtration. The can sizes are about 2" longer than the FL-1A but you have to put the media somewhere. Parker, Pall, Nordson and many other make these hydraulic filters and they all rate them by micron size (isn't that convenient). The Parker brand is easiest to come by, they have 3, 10, 20, 25 µm filters all rated for 20 gal/min and 150psi working pressure. Grainger sell these for $12-$40.


Grainger
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/searchresults.jsp
 
quote:
Originally posted by ExDelayed:
I will inspect the TD #1156 further tonight and see what I can find. Since we already know that it crosses with an 8A, the thread pitch is obviously a 3/4-16.
Click to expand...
Ive only taken apart one filter before, a Mobil1, so bare with me on my description.

This filter is small! Its about the size of a Fram 3387. Its painted black, though the paint was applied poorly because it is only glossy on part of the filter. TransDapts logo is on it in the form of a sticker. I was suspecting a repaint so I scratched it to see if I got a different color but it was just metal under the paint. It has fairly large holes for the oil in on its baseplate, there are six or seven of them (I cant remember, but I have pics). The inner tube seems decent and the ADBV holds good but not perfectly. The valve is also black and kinda rubbery looking. Inside of the support tube, which has plenty of little holes for fluid flow there is this little metal bump with what almost appears to be a spring under it holding onto what I am assuming is the bypass valve. It would have to have one being able to cross with a 8A. It did have '58' stamped into the baseplate.

Anyway, I am planning on disecting it when my ARX is complete. I guess I should start looking for a replacement real quick since those miles are going to add up fast.

[ March 12, 2004, 05:20 AM: Message edited by: ExDelayed ]
 
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