SN vs SN+

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I was wondering if anyone could help me understand any real benefit using the new SN+ oils, as opposed to the SN oils in a regular non turbo-charged, non TGDI automobile? Looking at various VOAs, generally speaking, the calcium numbers have gone way down, usually around 500-600ppm, while magnesium levels have gone way up, giving a rough Ca/Mg total of around 1900ppm-2000ppm. For example if an old SN oil had Ca of around 1900-2100, it will now be around 1500. And Mg will be around 400-500. I understand how this may be good for the whole LSPI thing, but what about in a regular (older) car? In addition, it was my <limited> understanding that Magnesium is a more abrasive detergent than Calcium, so I was just wondering how better/worse/the same it would be vs. its replaced SN counterpart--mainly for engine protection/wear. If anyone can educate me on this, I would be most appreciative. I know the new standards supersede the previous ones, etc.etc., but when seeing the numbers drop, and others add up to address a newer type of engine, while the API protection parameters might be "sufficient", I'm just wondering if ALL potential "good-aspects" of the SN+ will be applied to older car engines (i.e. Manifold Fuel Injection, Fuel Rail, or even Carbureted). Thank you.
 
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Originally Posted by demarpaint
I doubt there's any benefit at all for the engine type you mentioned.
I think you may be right--and correct me if I'm wrong, but won't SN oil will be phased out (i.e. no longer available as stock dwindles) off the shelf--or will be be continued to be sold/produced alongside SN+ oil?
 
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Originally Posted by Doublehaul
IIRC the only difference is low speed pre ignition If you want advantages in non tgdi or gdi or frankly with either of the following dexos 1 gen 2 is what your after
Just everyday cars, 2000-2010s toyotas, 2000s chryslers, 90s GMs, etc. Nothing too new.
 
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SN+ was introduced to address LSPI specifically. You have a NA engine so API SN/GF5 is more than sufficient but if timing chain wear is of particular concern of yours, Dexos 1 Gen 2 would serve you well. Fwiw, the upcoming release of GF6 will address TC and LSPI concerns IIRC. (similar to Dexos 1 but the testing is slightly different IIRC) Good discussion on Mag v. Cal https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2089814#Post2089814
 
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
SN+ was introduced to address LSPI specifically. You have a NA engine so API SN/GF5 is more than sufficient but if timing chain wear is of particular concern of yours, Dexos 1 Gen 2 would serve you well. Fwiw, the upcoming release of GF6 will address TC and LSPI concerns IIRC. (similar to Dexos 1 but the testing is slightly different IIRC) Good discussion on Mag v. Cal https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2089814#Post2089814
Yes...but *will* SN oil continue to be available? Or will all the major brands replace all their SN products (Chevron, Valvoline,Pennzoil, etc. etc.) with SN+. i.e., only SN+ will be available on the shelf since it "supersedes all previous API categories)? In other words, when I goto Walmart, will I soon (if not now) *not* be able to get an SN oil from a preferred brand--and only have SN+ to choose from?
 
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[quote: natas] In other words, when I goto Walmart, will I soon (if not now) *not* be able to get an SN oil from a preferred brand--and only have SN+ to choose from?[quote] I would say yes, that would be my thinking.[/quote]
 
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Originally Posted by natas
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
SN+ was introduced to address LSPI specifically. You have a NA engine so API SN/GF5 is more than sufficient but if timing chain wear is of particular concern of yours, Dexos 1 Gen 2 would serve you well. Fwiw, the upcoming release of GF6 will address TC and LSPI concerns IIRC. (similar to Dexos 1 but the testing is slightly different IIRC) Good discussion on Mag v. Cal https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2089814#Post2089814
Yes...but *will* SN oil continue to be available? Or will all the major brands replace all their SN products (Chevron, Valvoline,Pennzoil, etc. etc.) with SN+. i.e., only SN+ will be available on the shelf since it "supersedes all previous API categories)? In other words, when I goto Walmart, will I soon (if not now) *not* be able to get an SN oil from a preferred brand--and only have SN+ to choose from?
Well if past is precedence I'd say that SN will eventually fade away from Wally's shelves as more and more new vehicle owners manuals begin to spec API SP/GF-6 and command space on the shelves. If you want/prefer the pre SN+ levels of Cal/Mag you're gonna have to hunt it down. But I *think* low Cal is here to stay since the consensus seems to be it's an antagonist to LSPI events.
 
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Originally Posted by natas
Yes...but *will* SN oil continue to be available? Or will all the major brands replace all their SN products (Chevron, Valvoline,Pennzoil, etc. etc.) with SN+. i.e., only SN+ will be available on the shelf since it "supersedes all previous API categories)? In other words, when I goto Walmart, will I soon (if not now) *not* be able to get an SN oil from a preferred brand--and only have SN+ to choose from?
No, SN will not continue to be available. It is currently being replaced by SN+ and that is a good thing. With the exception of a few very specific circumstances, API oils are backwards compatible. That means that the SN+ oil exceeds the performance requirements of SN oil and the SN+ oil can be used in any situation where SN oil is specified.
 
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SN+ is fine going forward for any engine. It passes the same engine tests as for SN, plus one LSPI test was added. .... We have another year left of it, and then SP (GF6) takes over. Current dexos1 oil is better than SN or SN+ ratings alone, and combining dexos1 with SP GF6 later on will be a bit better still.
 
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Originally Posted by natas
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I doubt there's any benefit at all for the engine type you mentioned.
I think you may be right--and correct me if I'm wrong, but won't SN oil will be phased out (i.e. no longer available as stock dwindles) off the shelf--or will be be continued to be sold/produced alongside SN+ oil?
In time SN and SN+ will be gone, replaced GF6, etc. A slow evolution.
 
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Yep, the guys here that bought (hypothetical) 10 five quart jugs of Gas Truck, to feed their engines for the next several years, will be in Sell-Sell Mode and starving for the first-ever sales on GF6 oils.
 
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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Yep, the guys here that bought (hypothetical) 10 five quart jugs of Gas Truck, to feed their engines for the next several years, will be in Sell-Sell Mode and starving for the first-ever sales on GF6 oils.
LOL I might miss that liquid of the Gods for one OCI, maybe.
 
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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Yep, the guys here that bought (hypothetical) 10 five quart jugs of Gas Truck, to feed their engines for the next several years, will be in Sell-Sell Mode and starving for the first-ever sales on GF6 oils.
If your current oil is D1G2 I believe it's technically the equivalent of GF6, as there's little space between the two as far as requirements go. Don't quote me on that but I believe it to be true. And fwiw, many of the current crop of SN+ lubes will meet GF-6 test requirements without reformulation. For example I asked this exact question of Gena Fishbeck of SOPUS and she indicated all PP/PUP would meet GF-6 without reformulation. You can read her answer to my question in one of the sticky threads.. I suspect SOPUS is probably not the only in this regards..but I guess the only way to know for sure is to inquire.
 
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I poked around a bit and was surprised to read on api.org that SJ, SL, SM, and SN are all "current" oil categories. Seems like "Resource Conserving" and "SN PLUS" are possible additional classifications of SN oils, but just plain SN is still valid. So, the SN situation is a bit different from that with the recent dexos1 changes...dexos1 Gen 2 is the only current spec and dexos1 is considered obsolete. I did find a scholarly paper that claimed that magnesium-based detergents could interfere with the beneficial synergy of ZDDP and MoS2, but that the use of certain boron-based additives negated that interference. I posted a link to it a few years ago, but don't have it handy right now. Somebody who wants to keep using oils with a good dose of calcium should think about looking for the A3/B4 classification, every oil of that type for which I have seen UOA/VOAs has been high in calcium...not that I can call that proof of anything. For example, M1 0W40 has been unusual in the commonly available (thinking WM here) XOM oils in having a lot of calcium when most of their oils seemed to have gone low Ca maybe 10 years ago. Honestly, if you don't have a Direct Injection Turbo (DIT) engine, SN PLUS probably means nothing to you and I don't blame somebody who wants to stick with the older formulations. I have two DITs in my family now and am grateful for d1G2 and SN+...
 
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With Pennzoil the SN and SN + are both SN+ except for the label on the bottle. I imagine that is true for the other majors too, but Pennz actually states it.
 
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Originally Posted by demarpaint
In time SN and SN+ will be gone, replaced GF6, etc. A slow evolution.
Not so fast. SN+ is an API cert and GF-6 is ILSAC. SN++ or SO? I'm using SN+/D1G2 oil in my old junks and they like it!
 
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