PIA Airbus Crash

Back when pilots could leave the door open … I was seated in 1D when some wind shear took our incoming Airbus off the stripes and over the snow … they throttled hard and went around for another approach.
That flight deck sounded like a 3 ring circus …
 
I think we've all been there in our careers. ATC isn't perfect but if you think it's not safe for the love of God go around. Or a 360 if traffic and such allows.
 
Crazy decision making pilots ... paid big time for bad decisions. Go around if you have to ... just like people who try to make a freeway exit at the last second and do some crazy dangerous moves to make the exit ... not worth it. Airplanes are not very forgiving when they hit the ground.
 
If this aircraft was at 3500' five NM out, then the PF had less than two minutes to get the plane down and slowed down enough to make the runway threshold.
It appears that they crossed the threshold at around 210 knots, so only around 90 knots faster than they should have been and also neglected to lower the gear, which would have helped them in their wild descent since it would have added considerable drag.
The two guys up front were both captains with PIA, so PF may have felt that he had to show PM who was in charge,
The four most dangerous words in aviation are "I can't? Watch this".
 
[Linked Image]
 
Originally Posted by fdcg27
If this aircraft was at 3500' five NM out, then the PF had less than two minutes to get the plane down and slowed down enough to make the runway threshold.
It appears that they crossed the threshold at around 210 knots, so only around 90 knots faster than they should have been and also neglected to lower the gear, which would have helped them in their wild descent since it would have added considerable drag.
The two guys up front were both captains with PIA, so PF may have felt that he had to show PM who was in charge,
The four most dangerous words in aviation are "I can't? Watch this".

I lost friends in two accidents bcs. of this.
One as particularly indicative of this problem. Colonel coming back from Air War College, needed some hrs. in the plane. He was top notch pilot, flew everything possible, from MIG-21, 29, Eurofighter, F15, 16, F22, Mirage 2000 etc. Major in the back seat was with him. Audio clearly indicated that Major did not want to question openly some decisions, while Colonel was clearly thinking "i have got this." Slam in corn field, luckily missed by few hundred yards school.
It is big problem in some cultures, more in Eastern than Western. Asiana crash in San Francisco is good example of this too.
 
Asiana 214 crash had much more to do with cockpit culture than unstable approach.

That 777 was fine and was on speed on glide slope and fully configured at 500 feet. It met (for a moment) stabilized approach criteria.

But the throttles were at idle and the crew didn't understand that, and no one wanted to embarrass the Captain by pointing out the obvious speed decay.
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
Pilots chatting about Coronavirus- WSJ

Distracted pilots. Unstable approach. Ignored warnings. Lander gear up and chose to go around. Damaged engines subsequently failed.

A perfectly good airplane.

Unbelievable...




That whole story is just head shaking. They had the gear down early on but then raised it on finals? It does sound like the pilots were definitely not focused on the task at hand.

Is there not a standard quiet time that pilots use during takeoff and landing?

The question of fraudulent pilot licenses seems to be a huge part of the puzzle there as well.
 
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by Astro14
Pilots chatting about Coronavirus- WSJ

Distracted pilots. Unstable approach. Ignored warnings. Lander gear up and chose to go around. Damaged engines subsequently failed.

A perfectly good airplane.

Unbelievable...




That whole story is just head shaking. They had the gear down early on but then raised it on finals? It does sound like the pilots were definitely not focused on the task at hand.

Is there not a standard quiet time that pilots use during takeoff and landing?

The question of fraudulent pilot licenses seems to be a huge part of the puzzle there as well.


Yes, sterile cockpit rules apply, but it doesn't mean they are followed.
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
Pilots chatting about Coronavirus- WSJ

Distracted pilots. Unstable approach. Ignored warnings. Lander gear up and chose to go around. Damaged engines subsequently failed.

A perfectly good airplane.

Unbelievable...


Just breaks your heart at the lost of life aboard perfectly good airplane...
 
I am from a 3rd world country and I worked for a large Defense contractor and some times I was asked to support FMS Foreign Military Sales as many times I had more product knowledge then the Full time marketing folks. Anyway we were forbidden to fly most 3rd world carriers that included PIA, Air India etc. unless there wasn't any option. Today PIA or CAA announced that 150 pilots may have been flying with fake credentials. Lol
 
There's a good 15 minute video on the Flight Channel via YouTube on what they think happened at this point. With a final one to come in the future. This is the second one they've posted. I can't post links at the moment in case someone wants to put a link up. It contains some of the audio between the pilots and ATC. Amazing how calm the pilots sound.
 
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Originally Posted by tbm5690
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by Astro14
Pilots chatting about Coronavirus- WSJ

Distracted pilots. Unstable approach. Ignored warnings. Lander gear up and chose to go around. Damaged engines subsequently failed.

A perfectly good airplane.

Unbelievable...




That whole story is just head shaking. They had the gear down early on but then raised it on finals? It does sound like the pilots were definitely not focused on the task at hand.

Is there not a standard quiet time that pilots use during takeoff and landing?

The question of fraudulent pilot licenses seems to be a huge part of the puzzle there as well.


Yes, sterile cockpit rules apply, but it doesn't mean they are followed.

What are the rules specific for Pakistan?
Astro14 will chime in more on this, but I always stay amazed how French operate in two languages.
 
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Final report is out and an interesting read over at the Aviation Herald ( A320 ).

They were a lot closer to the runway than they thought ( flight management system complacency ) , which resulted in the aircraft turning final at 9,640 feet ASL ( airport elevation is 100 feet ASL ) with only 16 miles to go, and fast.

They should have been at around 5,300 feet versus 9,640 feet.

Because they were so high, the Captain pushed the nose down ( versus break off the approach and do an orbit as the FO suggested ) to lose altitude faster which resulted in the speed being too high to extend flaps ( Airbus A330 won’t allow a pilot to lower flaps when too fast ) but he ordered them extended anyway which triggered the flap overspeed warning ( 32 knots above flap 3 speed , crossed the threshold at 200 knots ). Because the flap over speed warning was going off, they didn’t hear the landing gear not down warning and landed gear up ( on the engines ). The rest we already know about.

I see this with some pilots too dependant on technology ( FMS ). Don’t rely entirely on the FMS to calculate the correct descent profile, verify what it’s telling you and intervene accordingly.

A320 has a “ prog “ page that allows pilots to input the runway you are landing on ( e.g KLGA22 ) so you can know for sure how many track miles are between you and the runway. They obviously weren’t aware the FMS felt they had an extra 23 miles to lose altitude.

At my airline, the FO has the authority to call “ unstable” and the Captain has to do a go around or will have some explaining to do later when the safety division calls them.

I read the report quick, but that’s my analysis as an A320 pilot ( how they turned final so high ).
 
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4WD said:
Back when pilots could leave the door open … I was seated in 1D when some wind shear took our incoming Airbus off the stripes and over the snow … they throttled hard and went around for another approach.
That flight deck sounded like a 3 ring circus …
Click to expand...
Similar to that I was coming into Hong Kong on Garuda and the pilot had to do a go-around. The door was open, and I noticed the pilot was wearing leather driving gloves.
 
Last edited:
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