OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Congrats
Phoenix Project: HK Citation 7.0 A/V Controller
- Thread starter sleddriver
- Start date
- Status
Thank you! I might even have to spring for Veuve Clicquot! Bon!
Update XIV:
I left the Citation on for around 8 hours yesterday to 'burn in' the new EC's on both boards, check for problems and be sure the wheels remained attached. It was hooked up to the 36" tv with s-video connections with a movie playing through it. I kept an eye on it occasionally to make sure all was well. Worked fine.
Late in the evening, I connected the FRONT audio outputs to a power amp, ran it in STEREO ONLY MODE and watched part of a movie. All was well! Very nice to have remote volume again...(imagine that). The equipment rack is a bit of a mess, and I need to move around some other pieces, but for now I'm still in the testing phase.
This evening I'll hook the rest of it up for surround sound and go through the set-up process and sit down with dinner and a movie for a listen.
What a long road it's been! Feels VERY GOOD to get this close to the top and have this project off the bench and re-installed in the rack where I can enjoy it once again.
I left the Citation on for around 8 hours yesterday to 'burn in' the new EC's on both boards, check for problems and be sure the wheels remained attached. It was hooked up to the 36" tv with s-video connections with a movie playing through it. I kept an eye on it occasionally to make sure all was well. Worked fine.
Late in the evening, I connected the FRONT audio outputs to a power amp, ran it in STEREO ONLY MODE and watched part of a movie. All was well! Very nice to have remote volume again...(imagine that). The equipment rack is a bit of a mess, and I need to move around some other pieces, but for now I'm still in the testing phase.
This evening I'll hook the rest of it up for surround sound and go through the set-up process and sit down with dinner and a movie for a listen.
What a long road it's been! Feels VERY GOOD to get this close to the top and have this project off the bench and re-installed in the rack where I can enjoy it once again.
Update XV:
Update XV:
Hooked up the surround, center and subs yesterday; used the C7's auto-calibrate feature with microphone. Calibration was successful! (I'd experienced problems with auto cal. in the past). Set-up loudspeaker array to ITU-775 standard (as close as I could in my small living room), entered in all LS distances, then watched about half of Master & Commander and some of Seabiscuit. Very nice enveloping surround in 6-axis mode. Thundering horses sound great running around the track. Dialogue very clear, though more forward than I'm used to as the center spkr is not the same as FL & FR.
Next, watched a football game and set-up a custom mode for it by adding in more delay to the rears/sides, enabling panarama mode and tweaking a few other settings. The result is an enveloping background stadium sound, but with clear, sharp announcer dialogue up front. Switching to STEREO ONLY causes it all to collapse to the front.
Then spent several hours listening to some old favorite tracks, reaquainting (sp?) myself to them. No doubt the Citation sounds excellent, particularly with 100% new electrolytic caps through-out.
I also noticed that operation of the remote control is much more reliable and responsive. I was using new batteries, but the IR receiver and surrounding circuit could have been iffy due to the old caps, making its operation flaky. One nice touch is that it's designed to be held near vertical when used, not horizontal. So you don't need to look for a button, put your finger on it, point it horizontal towards the C7 and then push. Also the most frequently used buttons are in the middle and they light up in soft-green when you pick it up.
I've also noticed that even though I've been using the analog power-switch on the rear panel, which turns off ALL power, the settings I've stored are still preserved the next day when the unit it powered back on! I suspect that all new EC's have something to do with this. This is nice to know as I commented earlier that this thing remains burning hot when turned 'soft-off' from either the front panel or the remote. This is what cooked the caps, the diodes, some of the regulators and damaged parts of the PCB traces: High heat dissipation over an extended period of time (more than a decade in my case). I created a SS to fill in with all settings so that when the memory is cleared, I'll be able to quickly restore it.
So far I'm very pleased with all my efforts and the 'resurrected' Citation's performance. The Phoenix remains aloft with clear air beneath her wings.
After I've cleaned up the rack, I'll post some photos. Thanks for following along with me!
Hooked up the surround, center and subs yesterday; used the C7's auto-calibrate feature with microphone. Calibration was successful! (I'd experienced problems with auto cal. in the past). Set-up loudspeaker array to ITU-775 standard (as close as I could in my small living room), entered in all LS distances, then watched about half of Master & Commander and some of Seabiscuit. Very nice enveloping surround in 6-axis mode. Thundering horses sound great running around the track. Dialogue very clear, though more forward than I'm used to as the center spkr is not the same as FL & FR.
Next, watched a football game and set-up a custom mode for it by adding in more delay to the rears/sides, enabling panarama mode and tweaking a few other settings. The result is an enveloping background stadium sound, but with clear, sharp announcer dialogue up front. Switching to STEREO ONLY causes it all to collapse to the front.
Then spent several hours listening to some old favorite tracks, reaquainting (sp?) myself to them. No doubt the Citation sounds excellent, particularly with 100% new electrolytic caps through-out.
I also noticed that operation of the remote control is much more reliable and responsive. I was using new batteries, but the IR receiver and surrounding circuit could have been iffy due to the old caps, making its operation flaky. One nice touch is that it's designed to be held near vertical when used, not horizontal. So you don't need to look for a button, put your finger on it, point it horizontal towards the C7 and then push. Also the most frequently used buttons are in the middle and they light up in soft-green when you pick it up.
I've also noticed that even though I've been using the analog power-switch on the rear panel, which turns off ALL power, the settings I've stored are still preserved the next day when the unit it powered back on! I suspect that all new EC's have something to do with this. This is nice to know as I commented earlier that this thing remains burning hot when turned 'soft-off' from either the front panel or the remote. This is what cooked the caps, the diodes, some of the regulators and damaged parts of the PCB traces: High heat dissipation over an extended period of time (more than a decade in my case). I created a SS to fill in with all settings so that when the memory is cleared, I'll be able to quickly restore it.
So far I'm very pleased with all my efforts and the 'resurrected' Citation's performance. The Phoenix remains aloft with clear air beneath her wings.
After I've cleaned up the rack, I'll post some photos. Thanks for following along with me!
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Looking forward to the pictures, what a fantastic saga!
-Chris
-Chris
Good job!
Now that it all works you can start thinking about some modern op-amps in there...
Now that it all works you can start thinking about some modern op-amps in there...
Not a good idea in something like the Citation and I'm quite skeptical it would be worth the effort, expense and improve the sound quality. Both audio & video signals pass through numerous MUX/DEMUXs and CMOS analog switches in addition to various contouring networks that are required for THX certification, for example.
In other words, the signal path is quite complex!
In other words, the signal path is quite complex!
Update XVI
The Citation 7 has performed flawlessly since last post. It remembers the custom programming, even though I completely power it down, even over several days. No reprogramming necessary.
I've since rearranged the equipment rack to move all the source components to the same side to minimize wiring runs and cable tangles. I've also removed the FM tuner, laserdisc player and cheap DVD player as I'm now using the DVD recorder/player for that function. The cheapie is out in the garage playing CD's.
I have each component on sliding panels to ease rear access and wiring. Originally, I had a solid front that covered all except the face of each component. Unfortunately, it didn't work near as well as I envisioned. It did look nice though. Of course, changing any component meant cutting a completely new panel. Major PITA.
Another Phoenix project will be the CAL Icon Mk II CD player shown at the bottom. It powers up, accepts a disk and ticks off the time played, but no sound. Something's Tango Uniform inside and needs excavation to find the cause. Great player though.
For those curious about the loudspeakers:
I'm currently using this MTM array employing all Scan-Speak drivers. Sounds very detailed, yet very smooth. The upper slot is a vent as this is a bass-reflex (4th order) design and there's another at the bottom. Nice idea, but not necessarily with a large Xmax driver like the SS woofer as they can 'chuff'. These just sound phenomenal though..they just disappear meaning you don't associate the sound as emerging from the LS at all. It's almost as if you could remove them and the sound would still be there.
Bass is being handled by this pair of 10's in a bass-reflex cabinet, powered by a separate amplifier. Currently I'm using the Citation's low-pass internal filter @ 85Hz to split the signal between the two LS as it keeps bass out of the remaining speakers as well.
Previously I used a custom filter designed for the bass cabinets that resulted in a 6th-order alignment for better extension and control as well as independant volume control. I can tell the difference and may change it back. The Citation 7 does allow some limited contouring of the bass response though which is nice. The other side is a similar configuration. Having four 10" drivers handling everything from 85Hz and down results in effortless bass.
When the day comes I replace the old 36" JVC, I'll have to rebuild this whole cabinet to hold a larger set. This one has served me well for 23yrs and I learned a lot about woodworking when I built it.
I'll have to warm up the oscilloscope and dig deeper into the TU status of the CAL player. Stay tuned....
The Citation 7 has performed flawlessly since last post. It remembers the custom programming, even though I completely power it down, even over several days. No reprogramming necessary.
I've since rearranged the equipment rack to move all the source components to the same side to minimize wiring runs and cable tangles. I've also removed the FM tuner, laserdisc player and cheap DVD player as I'm now using the DVD recorder/player for that function. The cheapie is out in the garage playing CD's.
I have each component on sliding panels to ease rear access and wiring. Originally, I had a solid front that covered all except the face of each component. Unfortunately, it didn't work near as well as I envisioned. It did look nice though. Of course, changing any component meant cutting a completely new panel. Major PITA.
Another Phoenix project will be the CAL Icon Mk II CD player shown at the bottom. It powers up, accepts a disk and ticks off the time played, but no sound. Something's Tango Uniform inside and needs excavation to find the cause. Great player though.
For those curious about the loudspeakers:
I'm currently using this MTM array employing all Scan-Speak drivers. Sounds very detailed, yet very smooth. The upper slot is a vent as this is a bass-reflex (4th order) design and there's another at the bottom. Nice idea, but not necessarily with a large Xmax driver like the SS woofer as they can 'chuff'. These just sound phenomenal though..they just disappear meaning you don't associate the sound as emerging from the LS at all. It's almost as if you could remove them and the sound would still be there.
Bass is being handled by this pair of 10's in a bass-reflex cabinet, powered by a separate amplifier. Currently I'm using the Citation's low-pass internal filter @ 85Hz to split the signal between the two LS as it keeps bass out of the remaining speakers as well.
Previously I used a custom filter designed for the bass cabinets that resulted in a 6th-order alignment for better extension and control as well as independant volume control. I can tell the difference and may change it back. The Citation 7 does allow some limited contouring of the bass response though which is nice. The other side is a similar configuration. Having four 10" drivers handling everything from 85Hz and down results in effortless bass.
When the day comes I replace the old 36" JVC, I'll have to rebuild this whole cabinet to hold a larger set. This one has served me well for 23yrs and I learned a lot about woodworking when I built it.
I'll have to warm up the oscilloscope and dig deeper into the TU status of the CAL player. Stay tuned....
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Looking forward to your updates
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Looking forward to your updates
Thanks OK! Cheers & Beers back to you!
Looking forward to your updates
Thanks OK! Cheers & Beers back to you!
I think that it's neat that you know how to get an older receiver going again. Thanks for sharing the story and photos.
I am looking to get into getting old tube powered radios working and am just starting to study how the electronics work. I am clueless at this point.
I am looking to get into getting old tube powered radios working and am just starting to study how the electronics work. I am clueless at this point.
i am willing to bet that every last one has high esr too.
if its something you want to keep i would replace every one of them.
since the lowest esr grade i stock is panasonic fc thats what it would get here.
and if there is room under those regulators install their caps underneath to spare them the heat.
dont relocate them as they must be close to the ic for stability.
Originally Posted by sleddriver
Update:
Heated up the iron this evening and pulled a few electrolytic capacitors for a value check. First up where the three 4700uf/50V main caps. I'm not able to measure these with the Wavetek I use directly as it only measures up to 2000uf. However, given they lived a very hot life next to the power diodes, they'll be replaced with new caps.
Next, I pulled several 220uf/25V caps: They measured 146, 134, 95, 82, 22 & 5uf! 10% low would be 180uf. 20% would be 176uf. The highest one is 34% low. The rest are even worse. The Citation has 20 of these. I'll bet they're all bad.
Next I tested some 1000uf/16V units: 400, 457, 455, 470, 554, 590. Way low. Again, 10% tolerance would be 900uf. 20% would be 800uf. These are more than 50% low! There's 13 of these to be replaced.
On the video switching board, I found some small 10uf/50V caps that serve as the main on-board filters for the +- 5V supplies. All three were a deep orange color. They measured 0uf, 0.06uf, and 0uf. Tango Uniform. They weren't filtering anything. This explains the sqiggles I would see in the background, particularly when the menu overlay was called up.
On the final regulator, it looks someone had replaced the OEM caps with a pair of Panasonic HFS 100uf/63V 105�C units. These are very nice and still holding up well despite their age: 94uf & 102uf. Excellent. Not sure when these were added but it must have been at least 16 yrs. ago before my purchase. Panasonic makes some great low ESR, high temp EC's (electrolytic capacitors) that age very well.
Not much use in showing photos at this stage because it's just meter reading. When I get CLIO up and running on an older machine, I'll do some frequency sweeps of these old caps vs. new.
This is SOP for reworking old & older electronic equipment. As EC's age, the paste inside dries out, their value drops, they become more inductive and begin to allow more ripple onto the DC power rails. Plus, they begin to run hot. So it's a good idea to pull some and test them. Depending on the quality, they may be just a bit low. But even this expensive piece of USA audio gear only used marginal EC's. They fail miserably compared to the two Panasonics.
Another common item to replace are any charbroiled resistors (usually an indication that the wheels came off somewhere) and any small incandescent lamps that have burned out. The Citation doesn't have any of the later, and was one of the first I think to use blue LED's which were quite expensive in the early 90's. That's all for now.
if its something you want to keep i would replace every one of them.
since the lowest esr grade i stock is panasonic fc thats what it would get here.
and if there is room under those regulators install their caps underneath to spare them the heat.
dont relocate them as they must be close to the ic for stability.
Originally Posted by sleddriver
Update:
Heated up the iron this evening and pulled a few electrolytic capacitors for a value check. First up where the three 4700uf/50V main caps. I'm not able to measure these with the Wavetek I use directly as it only measures up to 2000uf. However, given they lived a very hot life next to the power diodes, they'll be replaced with new caps.
Next, I pulled several 220uf/25V caps: They measured 146, 134, 95, 82, 22 & 5uf! 10% low would be 180uf. 20% would be 176uf. The highest one is 34% low. The rest are even worse. The Citation has 20 of these. I'll bet they're all bad.
Next I tested some 1000uf/16V units: 400, 457, 455, 470, 554, 590. Way low. Again, 10% tolerance would be 900uf. 20% would be 800uf. These are more than 50% low! There's 13 of these to be replaced.
On the video switching board, I found some small 10uf/50V caps that serve as the main on-board filters for the +- 5V supplies. All three were a deep orange color. They measured 0uf, 0.06uf, and 0uf. Tango Uniform. They weren't filtering anything. This explains the sqiggles I would see in the background, particularly when the menu overlay was called up.
On the final regulator, it looks someone had replaced the OEM caps with a pair of Panasonic HFS 100uf/63V 105�C units. These are very nice and still holding up well despite their age: 94uf & 102uf. Excellent. Not sure when these were added but it must have been at least 16 yrs. ago before my purchase. Panasonic makes some great low ESR, high temp EC's (electrolytic capacitors) that age very well.
Not much use in showing photos at this stage because it's just meter reading. When I get CLIO up and running on an older machine, I'll do some frequency sweeps of these old caps vs. new.
This is SOP for reworking old & older electronic equipment. As EC's age, the paste inside dries out, their value drops, they become more inductive and begin to allow more ripple onto the DC power rails. Plus, they begin to run hot. So it's a good idea to pull some and test them. Depending on the quality, they may be just a bit low. But even this expensive piece of USA audio gear only used marginal EC's. They fail miserably compared to the two Panasonics.
Another common item to replace are any charbroiled resistors (usually an indication that the wheels came off somewhere) and any small incandescent lamps that have burned out. The Citation doesn't have any of the later, and was one of the first I think to use blue LED's which were quite expensive in the early 90's. That's all for now.
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