Oil filter discussion

Messages
1,241
Location
Glenshaw, PA
Thread starter
Well, it has been quite a long time for me posting on this board, as I have been mostly reading about the latest and greatest things, combos, and such...so in that vein, and without further ado...I pose these questions: 1) After going nuts trying to keep all of them straight...who exactly owns who anymore, and have any of them actually gotten worse than normal (manufacturer's that is) 2) Is Baldwin still a pretty decent manufactured filter? My batch of B7243's say that they are made in the US. Am asking this in reference to possibly buying my next case of the Mann W811/80 variety, as since there change, they look quite comparable for about the same price. And 3) Other than Royal Purple, Purolator BOSS, or Fram Ultra Guard, is there another one that stands out as an overachiever for the price. Yes, let the flaming/discussion/slap sticking begin.
 

CT8

Messages
15,408
Location
Idaho
Unless the oil filter fails Your engine will last and last no matter which filter you choose.
 
Messages
24,823
Location
Upstate NY
Originally Posted by CT8
Unless the oil filter fails Your engine will last and last no matter which filter you choose.
Unless you are pushing it past 7500 miles, any filter will do. I think a silicone ADBV is a good idea. So if I could choose from a bunch of filter for the same price, the ones with a silicone ADBV would be my choice. We will see what the April NAPA sale brings as far as NAPA filters on sale. The majority of car owners are getting their oil changed at the dealer with (I assume) an OEM flter or a JiffyLufe or indy mechanic and both probably use a "good" (in the good, better, best rating) filter. A small percentage change their own oil and use what they sell at Walmart.
 

4WD

Messages
13,527
Location
Texas
Originally Posted by Donald
Originally Posted by CT8
Unless the oil filter fails Your engine will last and last no matter which filter you choose.
Unless you are pushing it past 7500 miles, any filter will do. I think a silicone ADBV is a good idea. So if I could choose from a bunch of filter for the same price, the ones with a silicone ADBV would be my choice. We will see what the April NAPA sale brings as far as NAPA filters on sale. The majority of car owners are getting their oil changed at the dealer with (I assume) an OEM flter or a JiffyLufe or indy mechanic and both probably use a "good" (in the good, better, best rating) filter. A small percentage change their own oil and use what they sell at Walmart.
I tend to combine two of your thoughts since I run around 7k mile OCI's and change oil and filter. (very easy on my truck/SUV). The vertical mount filters on my GM's are not as dependent on the ADBV and the nitrile in the AC Delco filters hold up and clearly work. As I was slowly building confidence in these (once I knew my older XG10575 stash had the low pressure PRV) ... I did early changes on the PF63E (5k)... each and every time it took a full quart to change the filter (0w30 to help the 0w20 with dilution) ... and that small filter does not hold much ... so the high side of the U-tube is being held by the ADBV (it dumps a fair amount when the filter comes off seat)
 
Messages
10,000
Location
Waco, TX
Originally Posted by PPWarrior
I think Mobil 1 filters are really good. I think Wix filters are overpriced.
Mobil 1 filters are *nothing* special at all. You can't tell the element from any other cheaper oil filter by looks alone: it looks like any plain pleated paper thing. Fram Ultra, Puro Boss, Amsoil, Donaldson Synteq, and Royal Purple are OBVIOUSLY synthetic by their construction.
 
Messages
7,538
Location
Cajun Country, La.
Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by PPWarrior
I think Mobil 1 filters are really good. I think Wix filters are overpriced.
Mobil 1 filters are *nothing* special at all. You can't tell the element from any other cheaper oil filter by looks alone: it looks like any plain pleated paper thing. Fram Ultra, Puro Boss, Amsoil, Donaldson Synteq, and Royal Purple are OBVIOUSLY synthetic by their construction.
They do have one thing going for them; they're very heavy!
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
21,967
Location
Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted by CT8
Unless the oil filter fails Your engine will last and last no matter which filter you choose.
horse You keep repeating this tired mantra over and over again and it's not helping this board. The OP had specific questions, if you feel that any oil and any oil filter is good enough, maybe you need to find another place to post. This board doesn't need your canned responses.
 
Messages
300
Location
So Cal
Without any data, which is not available to consumers, it is a discussion like Chevys or Fords. But nothing good will come out of all these name brands consolidating and moving operations South of the border. Just a bystander until my warranty expires but thinking about Amsoil or Donaldson has good quality. Purflux has been the OEM filter for supercar manufacturers and has a unique way of getting more filter material in a filter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpt_xi8iQqk
 
Messages
6,674
Location
Katy, Republic of Texas
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by CT8
Unless the oil filter fails Your engine will last and last no matter which filter you choose.
horse You keep repeating this tired mantra over and over again and it's not helping this board. The OP had specific questions, if you feel that any oil and any oil filter is good enough, maybe you need to find another place to post. This board doesn't need your canned responses.
I agree with you to a point Patman, we are on this board for a reason. But in the real world, regular changes with whatever oil and filter spec's for the vehicle will probably keep the engine from ever having any oil related issue. But again, that is not why we are here. We do not want the "good" option, we are wanting the better/best (or even bestest smile ) option. Plus many are here running with other than normal engine specs or driving conditions. To the OP, Baldwin still seems to be a solid filter. Nothing spectacular about their regular filters, just built well and never seen any issues with them. As Lintex said, aside from your 3 mentioned, Amsoil has a great filter (identical to the Royal Purple, just a different color ADV) and Donaldson Synteq (Have only seen one cut open here that I can remember offhand). You also have the Wix XP, but not sure how good the filtering numbers are for all that one. But it is a wire backed synthetic media. Also Fleetguard Stratapore are a Synthetic/wire backed filter, but a limited selection for those.
 
Messages
25,022
Location
ON, Canada eh?
Coming from Amsoil EA filters I've now switched to Fram Ultra. They seem to offer the same/better filtration ability at 1/2 the cost for me. Working well so far as I continue to push my OCI's further.
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
21,967
Location
Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted by blupupher
I agree with you to a point Patman, we are on this board for a reason. But in the real world, regular changes with whatever oil and filter spec's for the vehicle will probably keep the engine from ever having any oil related issue. But again, that is not why we are here. We do not want the "good" option, we are wanting the better/best (or even bestest smile ) option. Plus many are here running with other than normal engine specs or driving conditions.
That's my problem with his posts, it's all he seems to respond to most questions. Even if what he says is partially true, it's not in the spirit of this board. What if every single oil and filter topic on here was immediately greeted with that kind of response? It's useless. Yes, we like to split hairs here and picking the best oil and best filter (as we perceive it) might not make a difference, but that simply should not be the answer to every question posted on here.
 

dnewton3

Staff member
Messages
8,459
Location
Indianapolis, IN
There is a big distinction between what is theoretically "best" and what is proven as "best". VERY FEW people here have the data, time and training to discern the differences. Your money can buy more "more", but that does not assure you'll get "more". As with 99% of all the other threads on this site, we see a general lackadaisical effort to define what "good" and "best" mean, as applied against what standards for the conversation. I, for one, repeatedly state that most any decent product (even many house brands) do well enough that you'll never distinguish the performance differences, and that it's far more likely that boredom with your ride or an accident will take your vehicle out of your garage far sooner than the topic of brand "X" oil or brand "Y" filter. We have a slew of folks here that can give us canned answers as to what they believe is "best", but I challenge any of them to PROVE how and why those products are "best" in a manner that actually distinguishes the products in real world use. That some folks tire of the repeated reminder of how superior products don't always return any investment is no more or less irritating than the ad-nauseaum message that more is always better ...
 
Last edited:
Messages
1,241
Location
Glenshaw, PA
Thread starter
To the OP, Baldwin still seems to be a solid filter. Nothing spectacular about their regular filters, just built well and never seen any issues with them. As Lintex said, aside from your 3 mentioned, Amsoil has a great filter (identical to the Royal Purple, just a different color ADV) and Donaldson Synteq (Have only seen one cut open here that I can remember offhand). You also have the Wix XP, but not sure how good the filtering numbers are for all that one. But it is a wire backed synthetic media. Also Fleetguard Stratapore are a Synthetic/wire backed filter, but a limited selection for those. [/quote] That was my feelings on them as well, which given the construction, and the fact that my mileage has been WAY down due to my closde proximity to my workplace, I barely see 5K miles before my down to twice a year OCI. I brought up the Mann, because watching some video on them dated this year, they seem to fall into the same ball park construction and price point wise. Another poster mentioned Purflux..I would love to get my hands on these, but not at $10 per filter AND $10-15 shipping, since I can't seem to locate anywhere on this side of the pond that deals with them directly. As past posts and long time members can attest too, I use to use the very best (also read most expensive,usually) oils and filters, and faithfully do 3K/3 month interval..I have since changed my ways, and do them twice a year, getting roughly between 4K and 6K miles, depending on if I actually get to go on a trip over the summer season!!
 
Messages
24,536
Location
PNW
Originally Posted by dnewton3
There is a big distinction between what is theoretically "best" and what is proven as "best". VERY FEW people here have the data, time and training to discern the differences. Your money can buy more "more", but that does not assure you'll get "more". As with 99% of all the other threads on this site, we see a general lackadaisical effort to define what "good" and "best" mean, as applied against what standards for the conversation. I, for one, repeatedly state that most any decent product (even many house brands) do well enough that you'll never distinguish the performance differences, and that it's far more likely that boredom with your ride or an accident will take your vehicle out of your garage far sooner than the topic of brand "X" oil or brand "Y" filter. We have a slew of folks here that can give us canned answers as to what they believe is "best", but I challenge any of them to PROVE how and why those products are "best" in a manner that actually distinguishes the products in real world use. That some folks tire of the repeated reminder of how superior products don't always return any investment is no more or less irritating than the ad-nauseaum message that more is always better ...
Which one is best at keeping the used oil's particle count down by 5 to 10 times less? Real data from UOAs with an ISO particle count. Still waiting for the official test reports that say dirtier oil is just as good or better than cleaner oil for your engine. grin2

ISO PC vs Filter Efficiency.JPG
 

dnewton3

Staff member
Messages
8,459
Location
Indianapolis, IN
In the chart, they're comparing a filter that's 99% at 40um to one that is 99% at 20um. I don't know that any filter we'd commonly see is only 99% at 40um. As you and I have consistently danced around, the fact that most "normal" filters are more than good enough to make stuff last a long, long time. It's kind of hard to ignore the fact that some of the looser OEM filters (Toyota and Honda) end up on engines that typically last well past 200k miles ..... I've personally run UOA data experiments on my 4.6L engines, contrasting TGs to FL-820s and not seen any real, true, disparity of wear control. I've looked at tens of thousands of UOAs, and a large number of which I can directly correlate to UOAs posted here, so that filters are a part of the known equation, and yet I cannot prove that filter choices make a difference. What I can prove is that filter choices do NOT make a difference, in normal applications. REAL WORLD DATA shows that filter choices for normal applications are pretty much moot, as discussed before, because once the oil is "clean enough", making it "more super clean" does not return any substantial improvement. "Clean" is a relative state of mind. Doctors scrub their hands furiously with highly aggressive soaps before surgery. But that's not needed to simply make a sandwich at the kitchen counter. Your engine does not need super-duper ultra fine clinically clean purified lube to make an engine last a long time. Once it's "clean enough", that effect no longer is the predominant factor. - NO SAE STUDY TO DATE HAS DELINEATED WEAR CONTROL EFFECT OF FILTRATION AS THE ONLY VARIABLE IN NORMAL OFCI APPLICATIONS. - ALL SAE STUDIES TO DATE HAVE BEEN ALTS AND/OR ARE BASED ON GROSSLY OUTDATED ENGINES AND FILTER DISPARITY, AS WELL AS HORRIDLY EXAGGERATED CONDITIONS NO ONE SUFFERS FROM. - UNTIL WE HAVE A MODERN STUDY, USING ONLY FILTRATION AS THE VARIABLE, AS APPLIED IN OEM MANUAL OFCI CONDITIONS, EVERYONE'S OPINION IS BASED ON USELESS INTEL. The phrase "cleaner oil" means zilch because there is no study that shows how clean oil needs to be RELATIVE TO the predicted longevity of the equipment. You constantly state that "cleaner oil is better". But that has no context because you've shown no evidence of how clean an oil needs to be to deliver some predefined level of life-cycle expectation. The question should not be "how clean can I make the oil?" The question should be "how clean does the oil have to be before it's cleanliness exhibits a diminishing effect of ROI?" I have a LOT of real world data from normal OFCIs that clearly shows wear rates are NOT affected by typical filter choices. Filter choices are a nuance that sub-exist inside of normal wear trends, and they do not produce a statistically viable means to prove themselves of consequence in those normal applications.
 
Last edited:
Messages
12,657
Location
Kendall, FL
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by blupupher
I agree with you to a point Patman, we are on this board for a reason. But in the real world, regular changes with whatever oil and filter spec's for the vehicle will probably keep the engine from ever having any oil related issue. But again, that is not why we are here. We do not want the "good" option, we are wanting the better/best (or even bestest smile ) option. Plus many are here running with other than normal engine specs or driving conditions.
That's my problem with his posts, it's all he seems to respond to most questions. Even if what he says is partially true, it's not in the spirit of this board. What if every single oil and filter topic on here was immediately greeted with that kind of response? It's useless. Yes, we like to split hairs here and picking the best oil and best filter (as we perceive it) might not make a difference, but that simply should not be the answer to every question posted on here.
Your reasons for this board maybe. But respectfully, others may see Bitog differently. Opposing views are fine.
 

dnewton3

Staff member
Messages
8,459
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Here is an example of what I'm talking about from my UOA files. This is the example used in my UOA basis study for "normalcy". The owner ran 5k mile OFCIs. He started out using Mobil 1 and PureOne filters, because by gosh they were the "best". He did that for the first 140k miles of the UOA cycles. He then switched over the Mobil Clean 5000 and Purolator Classic, and ran another 135k miles. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/ The chart below is the synopsis of the data from the "micro" study in my UOA article. As you can see from the data, there is ZERO ability to distinguish the two sets of data from one another. There is far, far more overlap in "normal" wear than there is able to be assigned to the filter. In fact, the deck was stacked because it was not only the premium filter, but also the premium PAO lube. And yet those two products together could not alter the "normal" wear of a 5k mile OFCI. Now, as I've said repeatedly, if the OFCI were to be greatly lengthened, it would be logical at some point to believe that the premium products would likely show a disparity in performance contrasted to the lessor items. But from all the data in my UOA basis study (more than 15,000 UOAs now), there is CLEAR evidence that wear-rates drop all the way out to 15k miles; that is were my data stops. So normal people, whom follow the OLM or IOLM, are likely to never be able to see any benefit from super duper lubes and uber efficient filters, because the NORMAL VARIATION OF DAILY USE FAR EXCEEDS THE MINIMAL NUANCE THAT THE LUBE AND FILTER CAN AFFECT. This is one of my better examples, because it's statistically viable from a single source; it's micro data. But macro data tells the same story. In normal OFCIs, the filter you use does not produce any discernible effect on wear rates because the normal daily variation is larger than what the filter can affect. I realize it is hard to accept, but that does not make it any less true. I fully realize that superior filters make oil cleaner. What you all seem to keep ignoring is that once oil is clean enough, making it cleaner does not get you any return on the investment. Engines don't need uber-clean oil to last well over 250k miles. This Vulcan engine was at 285k miles, and I personally saw the valve covers off a few times; there was no cleanliness difference. No wear differences. Nothing from using the Mobil 1 and PureOne made the costs payback; it was all wasted money. 140k miles of M1 and P1 made the engine not one bit cleaner and not one bit better wearing than the MC5k and a classic white can (aka tearolator). What this data proves is that both the oil and filter were NOT the controlling entity of wear. If inputs change, and the outputs do not change, then the conclusion is that the inputs did not have effect. Theory: finer filtration and syn lubes make for less wear via cleaner oil Reality: finer filtration and syn lubes did not alter wear in any meaningful manner Conclusion: finer filtration and syn lubes are not the wear-control major contributing factor; other things are more important (TCB; lack of contaminant loading; soot control of the additive package; oil film wedge; etc). Again - this is real life data of 275k accumulated miles of 5k mile OFCIs from one vehicle that was consistently operated its entire life. This is as real as it gets. This is as well controlled as it gets in real life. The tighter filter may have kept the oil cleaner, but that cleaner oil didn't make one difference in wear control. Once it's "clean enough", making it "cleaner" does nothing. Facts don't lie. Is cleaner oil harmful? No. Unless you count all the money you spend not getting anything back in return. Is cleaner oil helpful? Only to a point, and then it's moot.

Vulcan UOAs example.JPG
 
Last edited:

4WD

Messages
13,527
Location
Texas
Yes they are built stout - but M1 filters also have a strong and well spaced blended media - they have not filled this site with torn pleats ... I have used plenty FU's ... and think they are great - but the world moves on mostly without them ...
 
Top