Oil difference between cruiser and Superbike

[devarshi84]

There are 15w-50 oils for both superbikes and cruisers, what would be the difference?

I know cruisers and tourers require long distance riding at high speeds.

Superbikes on the other hand are revved higher for shorter distances.

How is this related to select the correct oil for the same grade?

 

[benjy]

prolly about the same + i use real synthetic PAO 15-50 in my 106" victory + 650 cc bmw thumper + 895cc triumph bonneville. for my weather in Pa it works well, hotter climates can use 20-50, 15-40 diesel is quite popular as well. most any decent oil is fine if changed regularly. air cooled bikes usually need thicker oils + many crotch rockets with some water cooling use 10-40's quite a lot.

 

[blupupher]

Wet clutch/shared sump vs dry clutch/separate primary.

 

[Bonz]

Long distances at high speeds doesn't mean the engine is doing a whole lot. With a cruiser you might be turning 2500-3000 RPM. Even a superbike you're not turning that high of an RPM overall unless you're absolutely flogging it.

The hardest thing on a motorcycle oil is the shared sump, in terms of shearing. I don't know what bikes other than Harley that are cruisers that split the engine sump and transmission in two separate units.

20w50 V-Twin Mobil 1 went over 5000 miles in my ZRX 1200 shared sump this past summer and held grade right in the middle of a 50 weight. Can't ask for any more than that. Mobil 1 10w40 4T was the oci previous to that, almost 5,000 miles and held just below a 40 weight in grade by less than half a point. 4T starts as a light 40 wt so relatively speaking shearing was not worth mentioning.

With that said, Mobil 1 20w50 V Twin does show thickening in air-cooled non-shared sump engine such as the Harleys. Never been proven harmful but no one has a real explanation for it.

I'm really sold on those two oils. I would like to try Mobil 1 15w50 another time, however my UOA's show noticeably lower zinc and phosphorus than what Mobil claims they put in that oil. As well 15w50 did shear down to a 40 weight. Granted I like mobile 10w40 4T however if I put in a 50 weight I would like to have it come out a 50 weight. If I want a 40 weight that's what I'll put in it and the Mobil 1 4T pretty much does that.

The 4T at the time showed less zinc vs 15w50 by Mobil specifications however tested at higher zinc vs 15w50 in my UOA's. Even though wear numbers are basically no different between the oils, shift quality did hold up better with motorcycle specific versions.

 

[dwendt44]

Quote
I don't know what bikes other than Harley that are cruisers that split the engine sump and transmission in two separate units.


There are others. Off the top of my head, BMW, Indian, Some Ducatis, one older Honda model had a separate gear case, Victory, and others
I don't know details about might have separate transmissions.


My 2¢

 

[troop]

Victory/Indian (Polaris owned) all have shared sump motors.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted by Bonz
Long distances at high speeds doesn't mean the engine is doing a whole lot. With a cruiser you might be turning 2500-3000 RPM. Even a superbike you're not turning that high of an RPM overall unless you're absolutely flogging it.

The hardest thing on a motorcycle oil is the shared sump, in terms of shearing. I don't know what bikes other than Harley that are cruisers that split the engine sump and transmission in two separate units.

20w50 V-Twin Mobil 1 went over 5000 miles in my ZRX 1200 shared sump this past summer and held grade right in the middle of a 50 weight. Can't ask for any more than that. Mobil 1 10w40 4T was the oci previous to that, almost 5,000 miles and held just below a 40 weight in grade by less than half a point. 4T starts as a light 40 wt so relatively speaking shearing was not worth mentioning.

With that said, Mobil 1 20w50 V Twin does show thickening in air-cooled non-shared sump engine such as the Harleys. Never been proven harmful but no one has a real explanation for it.

I'm really sold on those two oils. I would like to try Mobil 1 15w50 another time, however my UOA's show noticeably lower zinc and phosphorus than what Mobil claims they put in that oil. As well 15w50 did shear down to a 40 weight. Granted I like mobile 10w40 4T however if I put in a 50 weight I would like to have it come out a 50 weight. If I want a 40 weight that's what I'll put in it and the Mobil 1 4T pretty much does that.

The 4T at the time showed less zinc vs 15w50 by Mobil specifications however tested at higher zinc vs 15w50 in my UOA's. Even though wear numbers are basically no different between the oils, shift quality did hold up better with motorcycle specific versions.


WITHOUT a shared sump, my Burgman sheared 10W-40 to 10W-25 in 3000 miles.

I switched to 15W-40.

 

[jayg]

Originally Posted by dwendt44
Quote
I don't know what bikes other than Harley that are cruisers that split the engine sump and transmission in two separate units.


There are others. Off the top of my head, BMW, Indian, Some Ducatis, one older Honda model had a separate gear case, Victory, and others
I don't know details about might have separate transmissions.


My 2¢


And older British bikes.

 

[Bonz]

I said "I don't know what bikes other than Harley that are cruisers that split the engine sump and transmission in two separate units". The operative term is "cruisers". BMW and Ducati really don't do cruisers however many newer BMWs have wet sump systems now. I wasn't thinking of scooters as cruisers either... Victory used and Indian still uses a semi dry sump, which shares the oil between the transmission and engine but compartmentalizes it and it flows between them, for a simple way of saying it. It is still subject to the forces of shearing of a fully shared sump.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

There is little difference between Veedol Auto and Veedol Super 4T oil
to make any appreciable difference in engine longevity let alone the
difference between a Sport and Cruiser oils except as always the
limited quantities of motorcycle specific oils cost more for the
manufacture to produce and market... Technically speaking either
Veedol 15w50 will meet and exceed your mileage expectations...

 

[Bonz]

Yeah that's a good post. The OP was asking if there's a difference in similar weight oils that would make him choose one or the other for a different type of bike and engine combination.

What is Veedol oil? Never heard of it, where does it come from, who makes it for them, etc?

I maintain a synthetic, like the Mobil 1 MC specific oils, does maintain shift quality for at least 5000 miles in a powerful shared sump engine. Only basing that from my personal experience, there may be conventional oils that do as well for some folks. I love to hear about those oils.

With respect to the oils in the above post, what would be the rationale for a much lower TBN on the MC specific well? That does seem to be an appreciable difference. As well, it shows a marginally higher viscosity despite being of the same weight yet the pour point is lower.

Their starting TBN of 6.0 is lower than either of the Mobil 1 motorcycle specific oils after 5,000 miles in my engine.

 

[devarshi84]

My post was not related to Veedol oils specifically. The confusion comes from the fact that my motorcycle requires a strong but basic oil.

1. It is a 500cc torquey single which makes its power below 4500 rpm. Usually 500-650cc bikes have a twin cylinder where each cylinder would be 250-300cc but making power at 8000-10000 rpm. That should definitely have a bearing on the oil we use.

2. My bullet has a shared sump vs. a seperate sump on many British vintage motorcycles. Thicker oil is definitely needed. But I had best experience with a thin Elf moto4tech 10w-50 followed by Veedol take-off 15w-50 mineral followed by others including shell advance4t full synth. So, a Veedol mineral has better shifts than a Shell Advance Ultra synthetic which is surprising. The only explanation is that Veedol says that it is specifically made for my Royal Enfield ( meaning additives?). Shell has active cleansing agents which may have removed the necessary sludge from gaps rather than smoothening the drive.

So this led to me asking whether there are different oils for superbikes (I used Shell advance Ultra Ducati edition ) vs. Veedol Take Off which is a basic mineral oil but maybe with specific additives. But then how did ELF moto4tech full synth made for sports bikes provide me with the best experience?

 

[Bonz]

Those are some really good thoughts and you put a lot of time into what you posted. I think what you have seen and what makes sense overall, is different oils regardless of whether they are made for a specific style bike or otherwise, can work differently in any given situation.

 

[jeff78]

Originally Posted by devarshi84
So this led to me asking whether there are different oils for superbikes (I used Shell advance Ultra Ducati edition ) vs. Veedol Take Off which is a basic mineral oil but maybe with specific additives. But then how did ELF moto4tech full synth made for sports bikes provide me with the best experience?


We can't answer that question because none of us here know the exact compositions of any of these oils - the only people who know are the ones who formulated them. And they're not talking. What the label or their Web site says is mostly marketing babble, take it with a shaker full of salt.

For a low-revving air-cooled single, I wouldn't go lower than a 40 viscosity grade. Since you're in India, you can ignore the W number, as that pertains only to subfreezing cranking performance.

Try different oils and use whatever you feel works the best. Change it on a regular basis and you'll be fine. Bonus points if it is inexpensive. And be aware that oil formulations can change over time.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by devarshi84
But then how did ELF moto4tech 10w50 full synth made for sports bikes provide me with the best experience?



Chemically speaking a 10w is a new and improved formula over a 15w...

API ranks the first number 10 and the letter W from the newest to the
oldest on its ability to lube your engine during critical start up because
the most wear happens during startup before pressure is establish...

0W

5W

10W

15W

20W

If you wish to employ the latest in oil companies technology then you want an one with an API
low number rank...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by devarshi84

2. My bullet has a shared sump vs. a separate sump on many British vintage motorcycles. Thicker oil is definitely needed.



Think again... Blackstone Labs data shows thin is in...

The Importance of Viscosity?
Quote Blackstone Labs

The viscosity, or thickness of the oil, is not nearly as important
as many people think. Oil retains its nature no matter what thickness
it is.Think about this: automakers are continually recommending
lighter multi-grade oil in new engines. The reason is increased
efficiency. It takes power to pump oil through an engine, and the
lighter the oil, the less power required to pump it. The oil's ability
to act like a solid and protect parts is not related to its thickness.
If that doesn't sound quite right, consider this: The gears in a
heavy duty Allison automatic transmission are doing the same work as
the same machine equipped with an Eaton manual transmission. Due to
the hydraulics of the automatic, it runs on a 10W automatic
transmission oil.But the manual transmission uses a very thick
(sometimes up to 90W)gear lube oil. The gears of both types of
transmissions will have a similar life span. We don't find any
significant differences in wear, regardless of oil thickness.


Quote 540Rat
VISCOSITY vs WEAR PROTECTION CAPABILITY COMPARISON:

20 wt oils rank between number 2 and 220

30 wt oils rank between number 1 and 233

40 wt oils rank between number 6 and 219

50 wt oils rank between number 39 and 228

60 wt oil, the only one tested, ranked number 101

70 wt oil, the only one tested, ranked number 177

So, as you can see, this is absolute PROOF that viscosity does NOT
determine an oil's wear protection capability, even though many people
mistakenly believe it does. As mentioned above, an oil's wear
protection capability is determined by its base oil and its additive
package "as a whole", with the primary emphasis on the additive
package, which contains the critical extreme pressure anti-wear
components. And the additive package has nothing to do with viscosity.

In general, it is best to use the thinnest viscosity motor oil that
will still maintain sufficient HOT oil pressure. Thinner oil is best
because thinner oil flows, lubricates and cools critical engine
components better than thicker oils can. Thinner oils reduce bearing
temperatures and sump temperatures compared to thicker oils. Thinner
oils can also help increase horsepower and miles per gallon. Using
thicker oil than is needed, is going the wrong way.

 

[ZeeOSix]

540Rat doesn't know how journal bearings work and doesn't understand the relationship between oil viscosity and it's effect on the bearing MOFT, which is what keeps bearings from having metal to metal contact causing damage. 540Rat only does one armed bandit tests which doesn't prove much, and if it does any segregation of oil performance it would be anti-wear additve based more than viscosity based.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by devarshi84
There are 15w-50 oils for both superbikes and cruisers, what would be the difference?

...

How is this related to select the correct oil for the same grade?


The only difference is marketing and profits.

 

[jeff78]

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
API ranks the first number 10 and the letter W from the newest to the
oldest on its ability to lube your engine during critical start up


So if the newest now is 0W, what are they going to have 5 years from now? -5W?

It's got nothing to do with newest vs. oldest, it's just a measure of the oil's pumpability at subfreezing temperatures, per SAE J300. Where the OP lives, he doesn't have to worry about that. A monograde would work fine.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
API ranks the first number 10 and the letter W from the newest to the
oldest on its ability to lube your engine during critical start up because
the most wear happens during startup before pressure is establish...

0W

5W

10W

15W

20W

If you wish to employ the latest in oil companies technology then you want an one with an API
low number rank...

This ridiculous comment should be deleted from this thread lest someone find it later and believe it.

What an absolute train wreck.