OE or Fel Pro head gasket part?

[ltslimjim]

So, the little Civic's latest UOA has confirmed coolant entry. I really don't care about price difference, I'm interested in the best option. I can get the Nippon Leakless offered by Honda sites online, a Fel Pro Multi-Layer Steel, or even Ishino labeled. They are all MLS type HG, IIRC.

I plan to replace the head bolts, dowel pins, and the intake/exhaust gaskets as well. Nippon leakless lineup or Fel-Pro all around? Any advice? Thanks.

Engine is a D15Z1.

 

[eljefino]

Are these gaskets known for failure in a particular fashion?

 

[ltslimjim]

Not that I know of, my first Civic. Someone in the UOA thread mentioned this engine is known for head lift?

 

[fdcg27]

If the OEM HG has done 265K, I'd be inclined to use the same as a replacement.
You are going to have to remove the timing belt to remove the head, so you may as well do that service as well.
You'll also need to ensure that the mating surfaces are true, so you may have to have some machine shop work done to the head, the block deck, or both.
I hope the job goes smoothly for you.

 

[ltslimjim]

The thing is, the OE was Ishino AFAIK, and it is hard to get that one from online. I'll see what label the local dealers carry, online the offer is for NIPPON LEAKLESS. I could try a could honda dealers sites that are popular online to see what they'd offer it for.

 

[umungus1122]

A check of the product reviews and the civic specific sites will be your best bet. Fel pro usually makes quality stuff, with performance gasket options as well.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Are these gaskets known for failure in a particular fashion?


This was my first question, as well. I'd consider going aftermarket if there was a problem with the factory gasket that Fel-Pro corrected.

From what I understand, the GM lower intake manifolds are an example where Fel-Pro offers a gasket addressing an issue with the original part. But, I'm guessing the GM gaskets from the dealer have also been updated.

Anyway, on the Civic, I don't know enough to know which to recommend. But, if I were going OE, I would make sure to buy a genuine Honda part labeled as such, not just a part from a company that's likely the OE supplier.

I like buying quality parts, and I'm willing to spend more depending on the difficulty of the job. For a job as big as the headgasket, I would make sure I'm getting a quality part. Sounds like the OP is on the right track with either choice, though.

 

[ltslimjim]

So, after reading around a bit it seems you can't go wrong with any of the brands/manufacturers listed.

I may be taking this job on myself with the help of some tech friends.

Ishino is the OE manufacturer, while some references for other apps claim Nippon Leakless is an updated part in other applications. I can't confirm problems with my specific engine's OE gasket. I can get any of the 3 I listed original. There seem to be no references to bad experiences. It seems technique in cleaning the mating surfaces correctly and making sure there is no warpage with a straight edge and feeler gauges, etc. in determing if the head is out of tolerance is more important than HG part choice in a non-racer. As well as alignment and torquing, of course.

Any other tips or help would be appreciated.

Apparently, I can remove the head with the Intake Manifold still attached, debating that one. The exhaust manifold needs removal. I'll buy replacement gaskets, but of course those are other areas of concern such as rusted bolts on the exhaust manifold and the mating surfaces there.

I also don't have experience with a torque wrench, any brands I should buy to be more reliable/easier to use than others? That's where my friends experience, with my FSM with such will come in handy. It's great to have a support system. Thanks for all the help here as well.

Here is a similar D15 engine head gasket swap write-up I'll be using along with the FSM:

http://hondaswap.com/general-tech-articles/how-change-head-gasket-lots-pics-71528/

 

[RH+G]

Have used fel-pro and OEM on those cars and neither gave me problems

 

[ltslimjim]

^thanks. I've had some white exhaust from time to time, like when riding at WOT above 80 MPH in colder weather, etc.

Consumption only recently started getting noticeable and the UOA has confirmed. It appears to have had a 'very' slow leak for a while but only recently(within the past 6 months) has it started getting into the oil more definitively.

The hope is the block/head itself aren't warped. I haven't overheated, so...

 

[ltslimjim]

UPDATE:

Tonight, I realized the HG is further gone than originally thought. I can't confirm coincidence or not, but now my radiator's neck is cracked and the upper hose has a hole/tearing of the hose fibers length wise from end to end but relative to the center of the hose. Over-pressurized from the blown HG? So, not driving until I can replace the upper hose.

Here is some information regarding 1.5L Civic non-Vtec in regards to a previous TSB for Civic's with leaking HGs. It doesn't appear to apply to my 'vtec 1.5l' D15Z1.

PDF of the TSB:

image of TSB

More information from a rebuilders site:

http://www.rebuiltautoengines.com/honda-civic-articles.html

It looks like with the cooling system starting to show pressing needs, this job will be done within a week or two at most and I'll be replacing the radiator/upper hose as well.

Any tips on radiators for a Civic? I've heard some of the all metal radiators have worked well for a user or two that posts to this site?

Link to Altrom import all-metal radiator:

Altrom radiator

 

[The_Eric]

That Altrom part will be from the OE supplier to Honda. You can take that number to most NAPA stores and order it. For instance if you go to napaonline.com, it shows about 72.00 for it at the store I would use.

Altrom also offers a nearly complete line of repair parts including gaskets.

 

[JZiggy]

SlimJim,

Thanks for sharing that TSB. I have a 95 Civic with almost 220k on the clock and it has not shown and signs of a HG problem yet - knock on wood - but now I know the correct procedure if it does give up the ghost.

I have done HGs before on Toyota truck engines and was able to "deck" the engine block surface with a large whetstone and some WD-40. I may have done that on the head too.

Does your VX actually have VTEC? Pretty cool if so.

I have had excellent luck with radiators from Radiatorbarn.com. Looks like they offer two versions that are plastic-aluminum. Standard for $62 shipped and HD for $67 shipped. Also says lifetime warranty. They have super customer service too. I would not be scared to go with another plastic-capped radiator... the nylon does give up after 15 years, but by that point half the fins are screwed up anyway! I've used these guys for both my 4Runner (brass radiator) and my old Accord (plastic-aluminum). If I recall, the Accord radiator ended up being a CSF brand which is pretty good, better than Spectra or whatever.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: The_Eric
That Altrom part will be from the OE supplier to Honda. You can take that number to most NAPA stores and order it. For instance if you go to napaonline.com, it shows about 72.00 for it at the store I would use.


I've had some hit-or-miss luck with Altrom. From what I've seen, not all their parts come from OE suppliers.

I bought some Altrom gaskets for the Beetle, and they were made in Germany and good quality.

But I also bought some axle bushings for the Beetle, and they turned out to be Meyle bushings. Meyle is an aftermarket supplier, and the bushings were significantly less beefy than the genuine VW bushings.

I also bought some sway bar bushings from the Altrom line for the Beetle. They were branded Ultra 8, which is the same brand the NAPA website shows for the radiator the OP is considering. The Ultra 8 bushings I received were made in China and seemed to be a cheaper construction than the OE bushings.

So, I've received some good parts and some just OK parts under the Altrom line. Your mileage may vary, though.

 

[mechtech2]

Fel Pro is known for quality. Often better than stock.
Clean the head and block surfaces really well -Scotchbrite on a rotating tool is great. [stuff rags in the cyls, and keep stuff our of oil return and coolant holes]

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: JZiggy
I have done HGs before on Toyota truck engines and was able to "deck" the engine block surface with a large whetstone and some WD-40.


You're not decking the block - only stoning it. Stoning a surface takes down the high points but doesn't necessarily ensure it is flat nor does it address the low points.

At least check the block with a good straightedge and feeler gauges to see if there's any detectable warp. I would also have the head rebuilt while it's out.

Originally Posted By: stephen9666
But I also bought some axle bushings for the Beetle, and they turned out to be Meyle bushings. Meyle is an aftermarket supplier, and the bushings were significantly less beefy than the genuine VW bushings.


Meyle suspension components are well known junk for VWAG vehicles. May I suggest getting OE Audi TT suspension bushings instead? They press right into LCAs of mk4 VWs and lots of folks on TDIClub have made happy noises about them after installation. Otherwise I have used OE Sachs bushings with good success.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: scurvy

Meyle suspension components are well known junk for VWAG vehicles. May I suggest getting OE Audi TT suspension bushings instead? They press right into LCAs of mk4 VWs and lots of folks on TDIClub have made happy noises about them after installation.


My reading on VWVortex and TDI Club didn't turn up too much info about Meyle bushings, so I don't know if they're "well known" as junk.

The Meyle rear axle bushings weren't great. But, I used Meyle bushings in the front and they were actually fine. Made in China, but they appeared good quality. And I did use the heavy duty TT/R32 bushings in the lower control arm.

 

[ltslimjim]

Cost is a limiting factor here, for my circumstances. More and more it seems like I'll be doing this job with the aid of some contacts I have from a garage instead(read home) instead of at a shop.

Unless the valves look beat up and there is obvious warpage beyond what the failed HG has demonstrated, straightedge etc yes the ideal, I'll do my best to get this together again and hope the consumption of coolant into the oil goes away.

I have yet to have the vehicle overheat. FWIW.

PS: Thanks for the tips away preventing old gasket/debris from entering the drain holes and the coolant passages. Any gasket remover products worth using here? Also, I've heard that you have to be very careful not to damage the mating surface beyond 'cleaning' it unless there was a need to re-machine the block???

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: scurvy


Meyle suspension components are well known junk for VWAG vehicles. May I suggest getting OE Audi TT suspension bushings instead? They press right into LCAs of mk4 VWs and lots of folks on TDIClub have made happy noises about them after installation. Otherwise I have used OE Sachs bushings with good success.


Meyle isn't the worst but not the best either, the best are from Febi-Bilstein, and Continential Rubber Products (CRP) a division of the same company that makes Conti Tires.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: stephen9666
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
That Altrom part will be from the OE supplier to Honda. You can take that number to most NAPA stores and order it. For instance if you go to napaonline.com, it shows about 72.00 for it at the store I would use.


I've had some hit-or-miss luck with Altrom. From what I've seen, not all their parts come from OE suppliers.

I bought some Altrom gaskets for the Beetle, and they were made in Germany and good quality.

But I also bought some axle bushings for the Beetle, and they turned out to be Meyle bushings. Meyle is an aftermarket supplier, and the bushings were significantly less beefy than the genuine VW bushings.

I also bought some sway bar bushings from the Altrom line for the Beetle. They were branded Ultra 8, which is the same brand the NAPA website shows for the radiator the OP is considering. The Ultra 8 bushings I received were made in China and seemed to be a cheaper construction than the OE bushings.

So, I've received some good parts and some just OK parts under the Altrom line. Your mileage may vary, though.


Very interesting indeed. I will have to hit up our NAPA rep when he stops in. So far for what I've seen everything has been of OE caliber. Thanks for the heads up!