Magnason-Moss Act and Amsoil

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ekpolk,

I think you missed the point I was trying to make - that the dealer/manufacturer has the money and the plaintiff/owner/enduser has a broken engine. No matter what the plaintiff/owner/enduser does, all the dealer/manufacturer has to do is refuse to pay. The next step is ALWAYS on the plaintiff/owner/enduser's side. This usually results in the plaintiff/owner/enduser having to do all the work - whether the law says he has the burden of proof or not.
 
Whenever I had a warranty issue, the dealer calls the manufacturer and it has always been taken care of. When I had warranty issures with my extended warranty company, it was also taken care of. In the last case, I used Amsoil for an extended transmission change for the previous 70,000 miles on a 137,000 mile motorcycle and it was not an issue. When they opened the transmission and saw how clean and wear free it was, it was obvious it was not oil related. Plus similar failures using factory oil and changes had similar problems with much less mileage.

I think the point is that Amsoil has recommended extended oil changes for 35 years and they say they have never had a factory warranty denied for using their products for extended intervals. I see no evidence of any complaint registered with the BBB. If I had a warranty issue, I'd sure file a complaint and it would be on record.
 
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ekpolk,

I think you missed the point I was trying to make - that the dealer/manufacturer has the money and the plaintiff/owner/enduser has a broken engine. No matter what the plaintiff/owner/enduser does, all the dealer/manufacturer has to do is refuse to pay. The next step is ALWAYS on the plaintiff/owner/enduser's side. This usually results in the plaintiff/owner/enduser having to do all the work - whether the law says he has the burden of proof or not.




CR:

Point well taken. I do see what your were saying. Your post illustrates well what can be the broad gap between what law says and what may happen to a customer when dealing with the manufacturer. Regardless of how the law is structured (it will vary some from state to state, as the individual Lemon Laws have also a significant impact on how a given case will play out), the mfr is still playing from a position of strength, at least initially. Even if a case is one that the owner will likely win in the end, he's still have to endure a fight (if the mfr insists) and maybe find alternate transportation during the interim.

Mike:

I can envision an almost limitless range of possibilities, from the truly messy to the "cut-and-dry". I think that many of these cases are much more "win-able" than most people would imagine. I think that the oil-related cases that most envision when we talk in this forum fall into that category (generally, some obviously are clear losers). Why? Because the cause and mechanism of failure are not often easily and directly observable, and for the mfr to prevail, it would probably take some expensive expert work, which in many cases, would not be economically justifiable (e.g. 10k for expert work, 5k for a repair -- what do you do?).

As to the little debate between me and GC4, understand that the subtle distinctions between "burden of proof", "burden of production", and "burden of persuasion" eat up a large chunk of a first year civil procedure course. The bottom line, though, is that assuming the existence of a defect, the mfr has to defend itself by proving a non-mfr-connected basis for the failure. That’s more than just "picking apart the owner's case", as suggested by GC4. If the manufacturer questions the existence of a defect at all, it could certainly try to “pick apart” the owner’s case at the outset. I suppose there may be cases where this is an issue (phantom failures, allegedly loose radio buttons, and the like), but if it’s an oil-related failure, as most of us are thinking of here, I don’t see a problem establishing the existence of the problem.
 
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I think the point is that Amsoil has recommended extended oil changes for 35 years and they say they have never had a factory warranty denied for using their products for extended intervals. I see no evidence of any complaint registered with the BBB. If I had a warranty issue, I'd sure file a complaint and it would be on record.




Good point. Getting back to the original question, IMO, those who want to extend OCIs using Amsoil, and whose operating conditions are appropriate for it, are very safe in doing so. Those who aren't comfortable with long OCIs should take a more traditional approach.
 
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That's a nice long post that GC4 put up, but look carefully -- he has offered not one bit of authority to back up his assertions. Not one case or statute.




So it does not count that I quoted the actual language of the specific section of the Magnuson-Moss/Federal Trade Commission Improvement Act of 1976 upon which you rely, and which you have mischaracterized? Apparently, your paraphrase of it is authority, but the language of the sttaute itself is not authority, then?

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GC4, the statute, and the cases I cited, say what they say.



Yes, yes, yes! (However, none of those say what you say.)

The "shifting burden of proof" is a chimera, a fictitious beast. Yes, people, even some lawyers, even some judges, use the phrase, just as some people talk of "centrifugal force" (there is no such thing) or "warped rotors" when speaking of brakes. (Brake rotors that really are warped are rarer than unicorns.) Misleading phrases are common currency in our language.

In any civil litigation, there is a single burden of proof for each count of the complaint and each counterclaim (if any). It is the burden of the claimant to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that he (she or it) is entitled to prevail under the applicable law. That burden never shifts. When the claimant presents evidence, the person against whom the claim is made has an opportunity to present other evidence that may refute the claimant's evidence. The purpose of presenting evidence that refutes the claimant's evidence is to cause the claimant to fail to sustain the claimant's burden of proof. The burden of proof does not "shift." There is never any obligation upon the person against whom the claim is made to present any evidence whatsoever. Indeed, many litigated cases end dispositively when the person against whom the claim is made demurs (enters a demurrer), files a motion to dismiss for failure to state a cause of action, or files a motion for summary judgement that assumes all of the claimant's evidence but argues that the evidence presented is insufficient to sustain the claimant's burden of proof.

In a warranty case, the claimant (usually the plaintiff) has the burden of proving that the warrantor has breached the warranty, usually a warranty that the goods were free of defects in materials or workmanship or (under the Uniform Commercial Code) that the goods were not merchantable or that the goods were not fit for the specific purpose that the warrantor warranted them to be good for. It is the claimant's burden of proof to establish by a preponderance of the evidence that the warrantor breached the warranty. The warrantor has no burden of proof; only the claimant has a burden of proof. The burden of proof never "shifts."

Subsection 2304(c) specifically allows the warrantor to escape performing the remedies that the warrantor promises in the warranty if the warrantor can show that the failure the claimant alleges was not due to a defect in the warranted goods. (It is redundant of the common law, and the warrantor would have that right without the subsection.) It gets more specific than the common law, however to recognize specifically that the warrantor may show that alleged failure was "caused by damage (not resulting from defect or malfunction) while in the possession of the consumer, or unreasonable use (including failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance)," and thereby be relieved of performing the warranty remedies.

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The bottom line, though, is that assuming the existence of a defect, the mfr has to defend itself by proving a non-mfr-connected basis for the failure. That’s more than just "picking apart the owner's case", as suggested by GC4. If the manufacturer questions the existence of a defect at all, it could certainly try to “pick apart” the owner’s case at the outset. I suppose there may be cases where this is an issue (phantom failures, allegedly loose radio buttons, and the like), but if it’s an oil-related failure, as most of us are thinking of here, I don’t see a problem establishing the existence of the problem.



The manufacturer does not have to defend itself; it can perform the warranty remedy (usually repair or replacement, at its option, oftentimes pro-rated for mileage or time); it can demur to the allegations and see if the court thinks that the owner has made its prima facie case. It can simply not answer the complaint, and it may lose the battle in court (or depending on state procedures concerning default judgements, may not lose if the plaintiff fails to jump through the right hoops). Nothing in Magnuson-Moss requires the warrantor to defend itself in court. And if it does defend itself in court, it needs prove nothing other than that the plaintiff (owner) has failed to prove his case.

Where you step off the edge is where you assume the defect. Nothing in Magnuson-Moss assumes a defect. Start from assuming that the reason the owner makes a warranty claim is just a product failure: then the issue for the court to decide is whether the failure was the consequence of a defect. The manufacturer is liable only if the cause of the failure was a defect, and not if the proximate cause was something else. CapriRacer was right that the matter is not cut and dry.
 
TeeDub, your're right, I was talking about an individual. Sorry if I did not make that clear.

And ekpolk, administrators in our fleet have gone to court over failures during the warranty period and they always end up in arbitration. We present maintentance records, lab work if any and some x-judge makes a decision. Even if there has been any doubt, we have always won. The abritration appears to be on our side. We have never tried to deceive or make any statements beyond what the records show. We have never stated, that we do this or that, we just show the records and answer questions. If you go up against an auto manufacturer it's possible that they have more resources to fight the case, but often these cases are brought about by lower level administrators that cause actions that have no place in court or arbitration. Thankfully failures of vehicles that end up in dispute are very few, to the point of being the exception.
 
GC4:

No, unless you're a lurking judge, which wouldn't matter here, I'm not impressed with your personal interpretations of the subject statutes. You can read them any way you want. I have clients who think that the Second Amendment means that they should be able to park a fully armed M-1 tank in their garage (OK, maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but you know what I mean). They can read it as they want, but in the end, it's the various courts' interpretation that matters.

Same situation here. You're fully entitled to your opinion about how the MMWA (and your state's Lemon Laws) read, I won't begrudge you that. On the other hand, I notice that, despite your lengthy argument, you still haven't offered one authoritative case which backs your position.

No defendant is ever required to defend itself -- they can choose to be defaulted or fold on summary judgment, if they decide that's best, for whatever reason.

In most of the discussions we've had here in the past, yes I do assume the existence of a defect. In the context of motor oil discussions, IMO, it would be pretty rare to have a situation in which there was a dispute about whether or not a problem exists. A molten engine is pretty hard to miss. It would, of course, be a very different story if a spoiled Lexus owner was claiming that his optional Mark Levinson stereo was not putting out full wattage, while Toyo/Lex thought it was. In a case like that, the owner might very well be unable to show the existence of a problem to the satisfaction of the local courts.

"Burden Shifting" is far from imaginary. I personally litigated (through trial and appeal) one case in which the trial judge, following our case law, completely reversed the burden of proof in a civil case. It was a chair collapse case, where a local hospital owned the chairs, and knew that they had a bunch of bad chairs (others had failed before, but with no one had been hurt until our client). After our lady was hurt, the hospital, it turns out, got rid of the chair on purpose, with the specific intent of keeping anyone from seeing how bad it was. Based upon this conduct, and again following our Florida case law, the trial judge shifted the burden to the hospital to prove its own non-negligence. Although the client ended up losing on other grounds, the appellate court ended up affirming the burden shift. If burden shifting is a fictitious beast, it was sure a helpful fiction in that case.

Look, we obviously disagree on this issue. Alas, again, we seem to be short one judge. . . You think I mis-read the cases. I don't agree. At least I've offered case law to support my position. You have not. I think you have offered no support for your argument, other than your personal reading of the statutes. You feel your reading is authoritative. I don’t. Until we find a judge willing to rule in this setting, we can go in circles endlessly.

Perhaps we can agree on what I've always tried to remember to add to my MMWA posts in the past: anyone reading here who finds themselves with a looming warranty fight should consult a lawyer in their jurisdiction who is familiar with how their state and federal appellate courts have interpreted the MMWA and their state Lemon Laws (assuming they have one).

Edited to remove "gram-o".
 
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Lonnie:

Yes, in most states, cases will be funneled through an arb (or some other "informal" resolution mechanism) before they can actually go to court. If the arb works well enough in the estimation of both sides, that will be the end of it. Most states do allow taking the case to court if the arb does not work out. How that court proceeding will work depends upon where you are, but one thing that won't change is the "overlay" of the MMWA, as the state legislatures are not free to "rewrite" federal law (unless fed law permits some rewriting).

Hey, if the arb has worked for you, good on you. The court system certainly isn't underused at this point. . .
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ekpolk, we found that showing the records and saying as little as possible has worked. No excitement, nothing. Make no statements that are not backed up by solid paperwork, ever, have every piece of paper you could possibly think of, organized in a folder with any lab work or photos and a clear index. If needed, include a resume of any tech, with license, certs or anything else like that, including qualifications of labs and specs for any fluids, parts and calibrations of any tools, computers or anything else. As Daffy duck said to Bugs Bunny, "Of course you know, this means WAR!"
 
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