asasa11

Keep K&N or NOT ?

Messages
899
Location
Richmond, VA area
The only filter that matters is the oil filter. Starting a new anti air filter group. So far one member. My evidence is my air filter doesn't even look dirty after 50k so how much dirt is really going in per mile, and my platform is most of that is blown out by the exhaust stroke.:p
Those air filters in the engine bay behind the radiator, what is the science behind improving power with hot air intake versus cold?
Can I join your club?

Hot air intakes....a common discussion topic on many enthusiast forums. On my platform, the MK7 VW Golf and all it's variations (GTI, R, Sportwagen, Alltrack, blah blah blah), there is a gentleman that has tested the $hit out of intakes, OE intake mods, and intercoolers w/r to flow and air temp. Great data set. With a modified turbo engine, you have other things going on beyond intake air temp to the turbo, you have flow as well and you have to keep both in mind...it's a balance. Yes, colder air is always better than hotter air but keep in mind the turbo heats this air A LOT and then you have an intercooler to deal with that to bring the temps to the throttle body back down. A larger flowing open-intake vs. stock will pull in warmer air especially around town (on the highway, it's not much different due to flow through the engine bay of outside air through the grille). However, it also flows much more air (keep in mind these are modified/tuned so 2x+ the amount of stock boost). When you run a larger aftermarket intercooler, you can deal with this relatively small amount of extra heat introduced from the engine bay. And you are also forgetting all that glorious turbo noise you get with an open intake!
 
Messages
1,250
Location
USA
Can I join your club?

Hot air intakes....a common discussion topic on many enthusiast forums. On my platform, the MK7 VW Golf and all it's variations (GTI, R, Sportwagen, Alltrack, blah blah blah), there is a gentleman that has tested the $hit out of intakes, OE intake mods, and intercoolers w/r to flow and air temp. Great data set. With a modified turbo engine, you have other things going on beyond intake air temp to the turbo, you have flow as well and you have to keep both in mind...it's a balance. Yes, colder air is always better than hotter air but keep in mind the turbo heats this air A LOT and then you have an intercooler to deal with that to bring the temps to the throttle body back down. A larger flowing open-intake vs. stock will pull in warmer air especially around town (on the highway, it's not much different due to flow through the engine bay of outside air through the grille). However, it also flows much more air (keep in mind these are modified/tuned so 2x+ the amount of stock boost). When you run a larger aftermarket intercooler, you can deal with this relatively small amount of extra heat introduced from the engine bay. And you are also forgetting all that glorious turbo noise you get with an open intake!
Club is full now, in high demand. Good points I only saw air filter in front of radiator and created my story, which in this case was wrong. My driving style is slow and easy, so guess I am out of the modified vw turbo club. Actually I have been driving a plug in so try to coast a lot. It’s amazing how far one can coast. :D
 
Messages
24,562
Location
PNW
The only filter that matters is the oil filter. Starting a new anti air filter group. So far one member. My evidence is my air filter doesn't even look dirty after 50k so how much dirt is really going in per mile, and my platform is most of that will be blown out by the exhaust stroke.:p
LoL ... after the rings and cylinder walls are scored by debris that got sucked in on the intake stroke.
 
Messages
1,250
Location
USA
LoL ... after the rings and cylinder walls are scored by debris that got sucked in on the intake stroke.
Any pics? If I analyze the amount of dirt on my filter at 50 k then divide that by the number of intake or exhaust strokes over 50k the dirt per stroke is going to be unmeasurable. In average suburban air. Besides cast iron is very resistant to wear. I used cast iron laps 12 in that I machined a spiral groove in myself. It took on average 6-8 years of daily use with aluminum oxide abrasive in a slurry of varying grits applied constantly to the cast iron to finally wear down the grooves so another machining was necessary. Aluminum oxide is much harder than “sand.” The club is full anyway no new members.
 
Messages
15,089
Location
Upper Midwest
It’s not the amount of dirt on your filter that you’re worried about. It’s the amount of dirt the filter didn’t capture.

And it doesn’t matter that aluminum oxide is harder than silicon dioxide since both are much harder than cast iron.
 
Messages
1,250
Location
USA
When you are talking about no air filter versus a filter the amount in the filter is all that matters. That’s the part that didn’t get in.
Cast iron is extremely wear resistant. See my first hand account. Both alumina and fused silica abrasives crush easily on cast iron with virtually no damage to the cast iron. It takes a lot of it. Alumina being harder just reinforces the fact silica in nature which is not fused silica is even less damaging than my experience example.
All this is to make the point looking at close test numbers between air filters on a page means probably nothing in real life wear.
 
Messages
24,562
Location
PNW
Any pics? If I analyze the amount of dirt on my filter at 50 k then divide that by the number of intake or exhaust strokes over 50k the dirt per stroke is going to be unmeasurable. In average suburban air. Besides cast iron is very resistant to wear. I used cast iron laps 12 in that I machined a spiral groove in myself. It took on average 6-8 years of daily use with aluminum oxide abrasive in a slurry of varying grits applied constantly to the cast iron to finally wear down the grooves so another machining was necessary. Aluminum oxide is much harder than “sand.” The club is full anyway no new members.
Maybe that should be part of a sales pitch for low efficiency air filters, lol. "Run our filters because engines are much tougher than dirt". 😄
 
Messages
24,562
Location
PNW
When you are talking about no air filter versus a filter the amount in the filter is all that matters. That’s the part that didn’t get in.
Yeah, and that tells you nothing about how much got past the air filter unless you have some ISO efficiency test ratings to compare filters. So now it "no big deal" to run low efficiency air filters along with low efficiency oil filters because metal is "tougher than dirt" ... might as well have a matching pair, lol.
 
Messages
1,250
Location
USA
Yeah, and that tells you nothing about how much got past the air filter unless you have some ISO efficiency test ratings to compare filters. So now it "no big deal" to run low efficiency air filters along with low efficiency oil filters because metal is "tougher than dirt" ... might as well have a matching pair, lol.
taking my words out of meaning what else is new for you. The question was no air filter what would it do? With ANY air filter take the dirt captured and that is what you didn’t get in your engine. Then divide that by the intake strokes and that’s what the filter prevented per stroke. On each stroke virtually nothing. It was meant as a devils advocate argument. If you want to have honest discussions don’t take others words out of context and make a new story to fit your agenda. It has nothing to do with what the filter didn’t capture regarding what I was talking about. It actually was a light hearted idea. No more, done I say no more.
 
Messages
42,993
Location
Ontario, Canada
When you are talking about no air filter versus a filter the amount in the filter is all that matters. That’s the part that didn’t get in.
Cast iron is extremely wear resistant. See my first hand account. Both alumina and fused silica abrasives crush easily on cast iron with virtually no damage to the cast iron. It takes a lot of it. Alumina being harder just reinforces the fact silica in nature which is not fused silica is even less damaging than my experience example.
All this is to make the point looking at close test numbers between air filters on a page means probably nothing in real life wear.
Dusted diesels (I've got a thread about one here) would tend to indicate otherwise. Engines with inadequate or failed filtration will fail.
 
Messages
24,562
Location
PNW
taking my words out of meaning what else is new for you. The question was no air filter what would it do? With ANY air filter take the dirt captured and that is what you didn’t get in your engine. Then divide that by the intake strokes and that’s what the filter prevented per stroke. On each stroke virtually nothing. It was meant as a devils advocate argument. If you want to have honest discussions don’t take others words out of context and make a new story to fit your agenda. It has nothing to do with what the filter didn’t capture regarding what I was talking about. It actually was a light hearted idea. No more, done I say no more.
Why would anyone run NO air filter ... except maybe at a relatively dust free drag strip for a few 1/4 runs because they want a couple more HP. I'm not taking words out of meaning because if you look at the bolded part of your quote I commented on it's about dirt captured in the air filter, not about running no air filter.

For awhile now in this thread you've been saying dirt getting past the filter is no big deal because cast iron is tougher than dirt, and the dirt will just blow out the exhaust pipe on the exhaust stroke and therefore no damage will occur. I highly doubt that. Every particle of dirt the filter can catch is one less particle of dirt that will get sucked into the engine to possibly do some damage/wear. It's amazing how some people disregard filter efficiency and think it really doesn't matter just because their car "still runs OK" on the day they get rid of it.
 
Messages
4,100
Location
Kansas
Prefilters/pantyhose work. I'm on the non oiled dryflow wagon and aint going back. I do think if people are gonna run KN filters that running occasional high quality oil flushes might be a good idea. If its extremely dusty a thicker oil will help but wont prevent wear.
 
Messages
15,089
Location
Upper Midwest
Prefilters/pantyhose work. I'm on the non oiled dryflow wagon and aint going back. I do think if people are gonna run KN filters that running occasional high quality oil flushes might be a good idea. If its extremely dusty a thicker oil will help but wont prevent wear.
So how does a flush reverse wear then?
 
Messages
899
Location
Richmond, VA area
I've always wondered about the cars where the turbo is exposed with no intake/filter - I've seen some that just have a wire screen to keep out the big turbo-destroying bits.
 
Messages
1,191
Location
south dakota
I had a K&N filter on my Honda Civic and on my F150. After reading several articles I decided to go back to high quality paper filters. I gave the K&N to my son for his Civic and still have the one for my Ford F-150. I previously had a 2005 Ford F-150 with a K&N and I sold it with 215,000 miles and it still ran great. I am not a K&N hater but just like the old style paper filters better. I do kind of like the extra noise the K&N filters make due to letting more air in. For a Subaru I would go back to paper.
 
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