Is this the Tesla killer? Lucid baby!

[Snagglefoot]

Something else different I’m seeing as Tesla cars and charging station numbers grow around me.
So, if my wife and I stop for gas … it’s likely planned out and at a convenience store with clean restrooms and good refreshments. In the time we can fill the SUV, one of us went inside and got things for both of us.

Like those tasty corn nuts and two beers in sacks at the local Exxon in Eureka!

 

[UncleDave]

Fair statements all- by the numbers


Lets lump those 3 together in terms of data because your "personal convenience" is not a data point for a legitimate comparison. Add up the total time of..

Move the vehicle to the charge, hook them up, total charge time, unhook time and re-park x 3

time to fill up ONLY ( you need to compare the movement time in terms of units like minutes because its not a level field if the station is 10 miles away and your charging station isn't)

Make all things even and lets see what the total times really are.



That's a faulty comparison fallacy because performance isn't rated by a sticker price- you would need to compare acceleration by performance class. Your point is no more valid than if I hook up that tesla to the bumper of a power wagon and say it has no torque.

Gotta keep it real and even



What do you think EV's need? ( where do you think a lot of that "gasoline" in that wall outlet comes from?

Do you have a Cogen plant or a hydroelectric dam or nuclear reactor at your house?

This is yet another painfully hard reality demonstration of what happens when the typical "green" arguments are challenged by plain simple realities of science and truth. They fall apart on the merits or simply implode on their own lack of substance

Did you read what I said about "green"? Go back and look at my position and dont lump me in with everyone else.

You can dance around it all you want - you cannot fill an ice car at your house and MUST make a separate trip. Period,
That may take you more or less time, but you cannot fill it at your house. You asked what was unique about BEV - that is.

I know very well where and how the energy is generated - I also know where its AVAILABLE - and that is my wall vs a remote location I have to take time to go to.


How do you want to compare performance? by MSRP? by mileage? how many 35K cars go from 0-60 in 5.6 seconds regardless of propulsion?

 

[JeffKeryk]

It does help to show you have an unsurpassed talent at straw man arguments even in the face of actual facts.

I already pointed out the scale being used is tainted and the data is not correlated equally ( rendering the entire comparison invalid) but you keep using it as if you click your heels and say it enough while spinning around that it may one day become true.

Then you post a puff piece 'love me' article from one of the most politically biased institutions on this planet that addresses nothing germane to any of the salient points- for what purpose?

Tell me specifically and exactly- what point of anything in that article is a vetted factual claim and not marketing hyperbole?

Please, paste it here and show me.

Thanks

ABN, I have no doubt you have a lot of knowledge. But it seems anything that does not fit your opinions is wrong.
EVs are clearly more efficient than ICE cars. The EPA measures and puts this information on every MSRP sticker.

You asked for Tesla's market differentiation.
The points in the article I posted are not in dispute.

Perhaps these 2 points do not fit your views.

 

[Rmay635703]

100 miles a day is very common up here in the Seattle area and I imagine other places like the Bay Area where housing costs drive workers further out from employment centers.

Yep and how long will the Burn zone McMansion commute last as the houses burn Down every year?

There are reasons why historically sprawling suburbs in certain areas of the country didn’t exist.

Also vehicles like the Volt make all the points Made above moot

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Did you read what I said about "green"? Go back and look at my position and dont lump me in with everyone else.

I didn't, I was referring to your numbered points 1-3 only. If I didn't make that clear, I apologize.

You can dance around it all you want - you cannot fill an ice car at your house and MUST make a separate trip. Period,
That may take you more or less time, but you cannot fill it at your house.

Actually I most certainly can. I have fuel cells for gas and diesel on the farm. That was not the point I raised (and clearly stated that in no uncertain terms) now lets sweep away all the straw and address the salient points like total time for each activity on a level scale and compare shall we?

How do you want to compare performance? by MSRP? by mileage? how many 35K cars go from 0-60 in 5.6 seconds regardless of propulsion

Already asked and answered. it would have to be the same vehicle by class ( weight, style etc.) otherwise any comparison would be invalid.

A diesel electric locomotive is more fuel efficient overall than any car and your EV but it cant do 0-60 in 5.6 seconds either

 

[philipp10]

What exactly does "for all practical purposes" mean?

Does it really matter?

If your job is on the road I would say that "commute" IS in fact an issue ( not to mention the payload in that service vehicle)



Here we go again with just your 'worldview" trying to be a stand alone fact when it isn't. heres an example- I have technicians who routinely log 500 miles a DAY in their "commutes". This idea of a short trip to a parking lot commute is a fallacy in and of itself.
So those technicians would not drive an EV. SO WHAT. They are in the 1% or 5% of long commutes. SO WHAT. You still won't cede that the majority of commutes land within an EV.



Who are you to make such an asinine judgment?
Luddite.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

EVs are clearly more efficient than ICE cars. The EPA measures and puts this information on every MSRP sticker.

Negative Ghostrider, those are cooked comparisons.
Show me specifically and exactly what area the EV is more "efficient" than an ICE in and what are the standards of comparison and evaluation criteria.

See, I have to be an expert witness at times and cut claims like this to pieces routinely. Don't tell me the claim- show me the data. That's where the truth is.

You asked for Tesla's market differentiation.
The points in the article I posted are not in dispute.

No, that's never been what I have asked for. I have been specific and exact in my requests and you know this, you are just trying an end run around addressing them. ( for reasons we both know) Do you want me to repost them all again?

Perhaps these 2 points do not fit your views

I have no "view" or opinion. I have already stated in no uncertain terms I endorse the EV ( as a legitimate technology and item) with a legitimate market niche and usage market. That's my "view" and I have not wavered from it.

Its the facts in the case that are falsely claimed and promoted from the EV community I routinely challenge- not because of my 'view' but because the claims as stated are deliberately false and misleading to promote a hidden agenda.

 

[UncleDave]

I didn't, I was referring to your numbered points 1-3 only. If I didn't make that clear, I apologize.



Actually I most certainly can. I have fuel cells for gas and diesel on the farm. That was not the point I raised (and clearly stated that in no uncertain terms) now lets sweep away all the straw and address the salient points like total time for each activity on a level scale and compare shall we?



Already asked and answered. it would have to be the same vehicle by class ( weight, style etc.) otherwise any comparison would be invalid.

A diesel electric locomotive is more fuel efficient overall than any car and your EV but it cant do 0-60 in 5.6 seconds either

I have fuel cells as well, but gasoline has a finite life thanks to ethanol and those need to be taken in and fueled as well.
gasoline storage is a pia.
You need a separate trip to fuel ICE, or a remote ICE tank.
Would you agree most dont bother with fueling from cells or should you say they do.

ICE simply loses the daily commute convenience battle as long as you can charge from home.
If you cannot charge from home to me the big differentiator goes away.

I wasnt talking about efficiency with EV's I avoided that entirely.
I would agree a diesel train is more efficient than any car, but we dont own these as individuals.

Are you saying that relative performance comparisons should ignore MSRP ?
We can compare sedans to sedan, in like size and the BEV will typically perform in the upper 20%
If you are saying a 100K ice sedan should be compared to a BEV 35K sedan then Im going to disagree thats relevant.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

I have fuel cells as well, but gasoline has a finite life thanks to ethanol and those need to be taken in and fueled as well.
gasoline storage is a pia.
You need a separate trip to fuel ICE, or a remote ICE tank.
Would you agree most dont bother with fueling from cells or should you say they do.

All matter in the universe has a finite life. I was pointing out how circular your argument was and how you continue to evade the salient points by pouring more straw onto the fire.

ICE simply loses the daily commute convenience battle as long as you can change from home.
If you cannot charge from home to me the big differentiator goes away.

What actual vetted data supports this conclusion?

I wasnt talking about efficiency with EV's I avoided that entirely.
I would agree a diesel train is more efficient than any car, but we dont own these as individuals.

I was using that as a false comparison example and you know that. You can read and comprehend English as well as I can. Now address the point of comparison that was referenced.

Are you saying that relative performance comparisons should ignore MSRP ?
We can compare sedans to sedan, in like size and the BEV will typically perform in the upper 20%
If you are saying a 100K ice sedan should be compared to a BEV 35K sedan then Im going to disagree thats relevant.

Now you are waffling. I said what I said clearly and concisely and in detail. I left nothing unclear. Now please stop stammering in circles doing the "Ralph Kramden" (haminahaminahamina) and address the inquiry as originally presented in context.

Thanks

 

[UncleDave]

All matter in the universe has a finite life. I was pointing out how circular your argument was and how you continue to evade the salient points by pouring more straw onto the fire.



What actual vetted data supports this conclusion?



I was using that as a false comparison example and you know that. You can read and comprehend English as well as I can. Now address the point of comparison that was referenced.



Now you are waffling. I said what I said clearly and concisely and in detail. I left nothing unclear. Now please stop stammering in circles doing the "Ralph Kramden" (haminahaminahamina) and address the inquiry as originally presented in context.

Thanks

You can keep asking question after question, but cannot dispute the fact that home charging is a unique benefit to BEV.
Yes you can keep a fuel cell, but it too needs a separate filling run at some point and adds additional points of maintenance complexity and mess.

"Already asked and answered. it would have to be the same vehicle by class ( weight, style etc.) otherwise any comparison would be invalid."

You are saying here MSRP isnt a factor in comparative performance. Usually you are very keen on costs, yet seem to indicate its not relevant here.

This is moving goalposts.

Personal attack by you surprises me, usually you and I have good conversations.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

You can keep asking question after question, but cannot dispute the fact that home charging is a unique benefit to BEV.
Yes you can keep a fuel cell, but it too needs a separate filling run at some point and adds additional points of maintenance complexity and mess.

I dispute nothing. Now or before. I just continuously point out your obstinate obfuscation and refusal to directly acknowledge and address the exact points I called you on earlier. Your continuous circular deflections just illustrate how weak your original points actually are and how you are avoiding addressing them with all this straw. Its not question after question- the points never changed from the first time they were pointed out.. They were clear and specific then and relevant to the point and they still are ( as well as still unaddressed)

Your point about the cell needs filling too is well taken but you seem to want to pretend the miracle battery needs "nothing" by comparison.

In reality as stated earlier, its a comparison fallacy.

"Already asked and answered. it would have to be the same vehicle by class ( weight, style etc.) otherwise any comparison would be invalid."

You are saying here MSRP isnt a factor in comparative performance. Usually you are very keen on costs, yet seem to indicate its not relevant here.

This is moving goalposts.

Simply put, No I have not moved anything. You are deliberately taking my words out of context to create a straw man argument and I keep not letting you get away with it. Now address the point in context as it was originally raised without all the circular rhetoric please.

Personal attack by you surprises me, usually you and I have good conversations.

I have made no attack to you or anyone and if anything I said appears so then it simply is not and I apologize. I would appreciate you highlighting one of these alleged "attacks" to show me how I might have phrased something wrongly.

That said, calling hands on points is not an attack, personal or otherwise.

 

[UncleDave]

Nobody disputes anything you just wrote but the point is both non sequitur and a red herring because the differences in efficiencies are not on the same scale in the same manner. The overall "efficiency" of the EV ( not model or manufacturer specific) is still somewhat vague and ambiguous.

Now back to the other specific points I initially referenced that you failed to address.

Tell me again what the EV does "better" or some trait is can do that an ICE vehicle cant?

What was the unique "invented thing" for the EV that never before existed? ( from the other thread)

Thanks

Lets go back to the start

Home charging cant be done with ICE. Agree or disagree?

I never said or inferred the battery "needs nothing" - you bringup up something I did not creates a fallacy where none existed

Once can dispute the value of this, but not that it is a differentiator.

One can store fuel, but it as well is acquired external to the home.

I said " typically" BEV will outperform its ice counterpart - I still think this is true, but thats secondary to the point above.
If one removes MSRP from a calculation then no all kinds of cars outperform it.
If one add it in then it typically will.
There aren't that many ICE cars that go 0-60 in 5.6 seconds for 35K.

you saying I sound like Ralph Kramden, would be a bit like me saying you sound like Kramer from Seinfeld bouncing around desperately trying to misdirect into being right.

Id call that a personal attack and refrain from them.

Id like to think I can disagree without becoming disagreeable.

UD

 

[Rmay635703]

Negative Ghostrider, those are cooked comparisons.
Show me specifically and exactly what area the EV is more "efficient" than an ICE in and what are the standards of comparison and evaluation criteria.

See, I have to be an expert witness at times and cut claims like this to pieces routinely. Don't tell me the claim- show me the data. That's where the truth is.

I did show you data, you seem to ignore it
I have to assume you can do the basic math of costs which of coarse is all the normals who own one care about

In my case...
12kwhr for 72 miles of EV is under a $1.20 but since my electricity is free Most of the time
on a cost basis including the significantly reduced maintenance I am ahead of the ICE.
The only place I get totally screwed is on taxes.

Brand new my car was $17,500 so your MSRP claims are fictitious compared to what people actually pay.

So I will ask you twice a week on my long trip the below happens, how does my usuage compare to an average car?

The “Community” claims you seem to be referring to are almost entirely made by people in Europe, who can’t comprehend driving over 10 miles a day without chargers on every corner.
the only denizens of the USA that Seem to exaggerate “Capabilities” seem to be folks like yourself and folks that live in the Bay Area and the
I don’t care if they tax BEVs $10,000 a year for roads because it would make them exclusive morons that live on the TSLA forum.

You appear to be an individual paid to have an agenda but your only tearing things to pieces by not providing data Yourself and using emotional calls to nonsense.

No, that's never been what I have asked for. I have been specific and exact in my requests and you know this, you are just trying an end run around addressing them. ( for reasons we both know) Do you want me to repost them all again

Its the facts in the case that are falsely claimed and promoted from the EV community I routinely challenge- not because of my 'view' but because the claims as stated are deliberately false and misleading to promote a hidden agenda.

You appear to believe the EV community is limited to the Bay Area and Europe, you want him to provide canned data that you already have which is pointless,
in the real world like everything YMMV and likely won’t match your preconceived examples from a limited area.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Fair enough- reset to zero

Home charging cant be done with ICE. Agree or disagree?

Well, this is where the subtle changes from the original statement creep in and change things thus becoming straw.

I can both charge the battery on an ICE at home as well as fill from a cell. Your original post was about time and convenience. I qualified that time and convenience on equal terms for an accurate comparison. That's where you started balking and still are.

Go back and re read it- the words are still there for all to see.

I never said or inferred the battery "needs nothing" - you bringup up something I did not creates a fallacy where none existed

Specifically, no you did not but that is not a fallacy because it was a descriptive analogy in proper contradictory context to the image you were trying to convey that the EV "needs nothing" in comparison to the needs of an ICE.

That too is clearly written so you can go back and re read.

Once can dispute the value of this, but not that it is a differentiator.

I don't understand that

One can store fuel, but it as well is acquired external to the home.

Well "electricity" is also acquired external to the home too ( look a those lines outside) and had to be generated by some means ( That has to be accounted for too in a legitimate comparison- there are no free lunches)

I said " typically" BEV will outperform its ice counterpart - I still think this is true, but thats secondary to the point above.
If one removes MSRP from a calculation then no all kinds of cars outperform it.
If one add it in then it typically will.
There aren't that many ICE cars that go 0-60 in 5.6 seconds for 35K.

That's unqualified opinion and conjecture- too vague and non descript to comment on

How was that?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Negative Ghostrider, those are cooked comparisons.
Show me specifically and exactly what area the EV is more "efficient" than an ICE in and what are the standards of comparison and evaluation criteria.

See, I have to be an expert witness at times and cut claims like this to pieces routinely. Don't tell me the claim- show me the data. That's where the truth is.



No, that's never been what I have asked for. I have been specific and exact in my requests and you know this, you are just trying an end run around addressing them. ( for reasons we both know) Do you want me to repost them all again?



I have no "view" or opinion. I have already stated in no uncertain terms I endorse the EV ( as a legitimate technology and item) with a legitimate market niche and usage market. That's my "view" and I have not wavered from it.

Its the facts in the case that are falsely claimed and promoted from the EV community I routinely challenge- not because of my 'view' but because the claims as stated are deliberately false and misleading to promote a hidden agenda.

Here is better and unique....
Teslas use electric motors that have two moving parts, and single-speed “transmissions” that have no gears. The drive train has about 17 moving parts compared with about 200 in a conventional ICE drive train. The Tesla system is virtually maintenance-free. And because it is controlled by electronics, many adjustments and even repairs to the Tesla system can be made through software adjustments.

I hope this helps.

 

[UncleDave]

The words are all there from my first post. Everyone here can go back and forth and read both our posts.

Both gasoline and electricity are "created" externally. No debate here.

Electricity is available at my home, gasoline is not. I don't have to leave to acquire it. Is this a debate?

I never claimed anything was free, the universe always extracts a price.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

I did show you data, you seem to ignore it
I have to assume you can do the basic math of costs which of coarse is all the normals who own one care about

You showed bogus data and I ignored it.

By the numbers

In my case...
12kwhr for 72 miles of EV is under a $1.20 but since my electricity is free Most of the time
on a cost basis including the significantly reduced maintenance I am ahead of the ICE.
The only place I get totally screwed is on taxes.

The fact you yourself claim a special case disqualifies the argument because all tenets are not equal

Brand new my car was $17,500 so your MSRP claims are fictitious compared to what people actually pay.

Your point is false ( or confused with someone else) I have made no MSRP claim of any sort at any time.

So I will ask you twice a week on my long trip the below happens, how does my usuage compare to an average car?

It doesn't because there is no direct correlation between MPG and MPG "electric". That's a made up meaningless metric.

The “Community” claims you seem to be referring to are almost entirely made by people in Europe, who can’t comprehend driving over 10 miles a day without chargers on every corner.
the only denizens of the USA that Seem to exaggerate “Capabilities” seem to be folks like yourself and folks that live in the Bay Area and the
I don’t care if they tax BEVs $10,000 a year for roads because it would make them exclusive morons that live on the TSLA forum.

You must be confusing me with someone else here. I don't even know what you are talking about.

You appear to be an individual paid to have an agenda but your only tearing things to pieces by not providing data Yourself and using emotional calls to nonsense.

Now I know you are confusing me with someone else. I establish every point I make ( usually in too great a detail as some tell me)

You appear to believe the EV community is limited to the Bay Area and Europe, you want him to provide canned data that you already have which is pointless,
in the real world like everything YMMV and likely won’t match your preconceived examples from a limited area.

Nope

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

The words are all there from my first post. Everyone here can go back and forth and read both our posts.

Both gasoline and electricity are "created" externally. No debate here.

Electricity is available at my home, gasoline is not.I Deontaes have to leave to acquire it. Is this a debate?

I never claimed anything was free, the universe always extracts a price.

Now all that is cleared up,lets go back and address the other points please

 

[UncleDave]

Now all that is cleared up,lets go back and address the other points please

Whats left we didn't discuss or go back and forth on already?

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Here is better and unique....
Teslas use electric motors that have two moving parts, and single-speed “transmissions” that have no gears. The drive train has about 17 moving parts compared with about 200 in a conventional ICE drive train. The Tesla system is virtually maintenance-free. And because it is controlled by electronics, many adjustments and even repairs to the Tesla system can be made through software adjustments.

I hope this helps.

It helps but its meaningless in relation to the points on the table and again, its a red herring.

Its not "unique' because that concept and application has been around for a century ( all electric motors have 2 moving parts in industry and gearless transmissions are common too- just putting 4 tires on that arrangement isn't "better or unique")

"Virtually" maintenance free is not maintenance free any more than a little bit pregnant isn't pregnant.

I do too much electrical and control work- theres plenty to go wrong and requires maintenance and repair.

That whole statement is nothing but marketing hype.

Since you bring it up, lets talk about the 'cost" and 'downtime' of those repairs and if the vehicle is stranded in the field somewhere.( with no signal)

Lets get out of the sterile one off talking points and have some real world stuff.