11th UOA, 07 FJ 4.0L, Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w40

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The reason I do used oil analysis and extended oil changes is: 1) I find it interesting; 2) so we all might learn something. I could have figured out what oil and oci works after a couple of UOA reports and gone about my merry way. But whats the fun in that, right? My 2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser w/4.0L (I run regular unleaded) gas engine has been a wonderful vehicle. I bought it used March 2009 with 22k on it. The first 9 mths and 15k miles of ownership I did what I had always done to my vehicles, changed the oil and filter every 3k miles w/dinasor oil. In Dec 2009 I switched to Amsoil SSO 5w30 synthetic oil. The original plan(based on Amsoil marketing) was to change this oil every 25k miles with 2 filter changes and the makeup oil in between. But 1 yr(Dec 2010) and 17k miles on the oil later, I sent the first sample to Oil Analyzers Inc(OAI-Polaris Labs). The results told me that 25k miles was too much and I needed better oil filtering. So I installed the Pareto Point TopDog V engine oil bypass filtration system in Jan. 2011 w/55k miles on the clock. This adds almost 1 qt to the sump capacity too. It's still in place to this day. I usually change the Amsoil EaBP90 bypass filter every 3rd oil change. Over the yrs I've tried 6 or 7 different flavors of engine oil. The most expensive being Amsoil SSO 5w30. The least expensive being WalMart full synthetic 5w30. My oil and full flow filter change interval varies based upon what the UOA tells me. This oil report is about Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w40. The ff filter was again a Fram XG8A. This is the 1st time I've run this oil in this engine. The air cleaner element was a Fram XGA9683. I've tried 4 different air filters on this vehicle. I can't find an induction leak? OAI flagged the following: SILICON level(Si) is at the MINOR level. OXIDATION as at a SEVERE level. I'm not too concerned because the oil viscosity hasn't thickened(13.3). Virgin # is 33. NITRATION is at a MINOR level. Virgin # is 7. Boron is slightly low What Say U ????? Old results on the left, newer results as you go right
Code
Oil       Amsoil   Amsoil   Amsoil   Amsoil   Amsoil   Amsoil  SynTec       M1        M1       M1     M Del 1
Brand      SSO       SSO      AMO      AMO     AMO      ACD      ST                   EP       AP       ESP
Weight     5w30     5w30    10w40    10w40   10w40     10w30     5w30      5w30      5w30     5w30      5w40
Iron        28.......14.......12...…...7.......21.......17........19........21........22........24....….18
Copper      1.....…...1........1...…...0........1........0.........1.........1.....…...1.........1.......0
Alum        5.........6........7.......1........3........2.........0.........3.........3.........3.......5

CONTAMINANT METALS-PPM
Silicon     56.......70.......43......32........33......37........38.........30........25........31......30
Sodium      168......45.......17......28........29......31........29.........21........23........26......27
Potassium     4.......2........2.......4........3........5...….....1...…...….3..........3...…....4........0

MULTI SOURCE METALS
Molybdenum  2.........0........0.......0........0........0........32.........65........77........72.......54
Boron       6.........4........3.......1........1........2.........1...….....20........26........24.......32

ADDITIVE METALS-PPM
Magnesium   14.......11.......16.......10.......13.......11.......12.........535.......684.......727......931
Calcium    3394.....3531.....4351.....3589.....3022.....3520.....2417.......1311......1086......1110......1044
Phosph     568.......497......809......929......895.....1037......643........662......684........642.......833
Zinc       691.......591.......989.....1130.....1084....1236......757........817......836........808......1079

V100C       10.9.....10.8.....12.7.....14.3.....15.2....12.7.....10.2.......10.3......10.2......10.8......13.3
IR Oxidation 58.......64.......61......25.......67......50........27.........23...…...17.........22.........42
IR Nitra     39.......41.......17.......9.......18......18........15.........15.......11...….....15........16
TBN        2.66.....2.18.....2.48.....2.35.....1.89.....2.22......1.43......2.64.....2.92......2.32......2.51
[Linked Image]
 
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33,517
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Southern NJ
Originally Posted by BlakeB
There's a guy on tacomaworld that has 400k on a 4.0. I think he said she's changed his oil with Mobil 1 5w30 EP every 8-12k since new. These single VVTI 4.0 engines are great engines. 400k mile 4.0 Tacoma
They are. I'd rather have the Tacoma with the 4.0 and prior gen transmission than the current.
 
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On another site
jetman, what's the oil in slot 4 on the report? That one looks like it did the best, went 14,000 miles and still had some life left. Was it plain 'ole M1?
 

dnewton3

Staff member
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8,454
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Jetman - I might suggest you add a row indicating the miles on the OCI/UOA to your code text. That way it'd be much easier to understand the wear rates in a simple, quick view. Your Fe bounces between 1 to 2 ppm per 1k miles. Good wear rate, but there is a lot of variation in that range, and therefore there's no true ability to discern any "best" or "worst" lube here, because the stdev is so large relative to the expressed range. This data echo's what I have in my database, and does show that the engine has no real preference for the lube brand/grade, and the generally low wear rates certainly bolster the concept of longevity for the 4.0L Toy motor!
 
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186
Location
San Antonio,TX
Thread starter
Here's the data with the "Lube miles" and "vehicle miles" added: I'll also say my FJ doesn't need any makeup oil between changes because it doesn't burn and/or leak any. It has 196k miles now. I also posted recently here on BITOG a Virgin report about this oil and a UOA about my 07 Yukon w/unleaded aluminum 6.2L that has made two runs on this oil. The Yukon is much harder on oil which makes sense. Yukon is 20% heavier than the FJ and get 20% less mpg. The Toyota 4.0L makes 239hp, the GM 6.2L makes 380hp. Why this oil? It's both spark and compression rated and because in 2018 Mobil had a mail-in rebate program and combined with a NAPA sale the oil cost $10/gal. Now I've switched both vehicles to Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w30 because in 2019 Mobil has another mail-in rebate program and combined with an O'Reilly 25% off coupon it's costing me <$13/gal. Here's a link to the Product Description Sheet for Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w40: PDS link
Code
Oil       Amsoil   Amsoil   Amsoil   Amsoil   Amsoil   Amsoil  SynTec       M1        M1       M1     M Del 1
Brand      SSO       SSO      AMO      AMO     AMO      ACD      ST                   EP       AP       ESP
Weight     5w30     5w30    10w40    10w40   10w40     10w30     5w30      5w30      5w30     5w30      5w40
Lube miles 17K     18.7k     12.2 k    14k     15k      14.2k    10k        11k       13k     14.5k      11k
FJ miles   53k     71.7k      84.4k  99.6k  116.6k     130.9k   142k       153k     169.2k   183.8k   196.6k

WEAR METALS-PPM
Iron        28.......14.......12...…...7.......21.......17........19........21........22........24....….18
Copper      1.....…...1........1...…...0........1........0.........1.........1.....…...1.........1.......0
Alum        5.........6........7.......1........3........2.........0.........3.........3.........3.......5

CONTAMINANT METALS-PPM
Silicon     56.......70.......43......32........33......37........38.........30........25........31......30
Sodium      168......45.......17......28........29......31........29.........21........23........26......27
Potassium     4.......2........2.......4........3........5...….....1...…...….3..........3...…....4........0

MULTI SOURCE METALS
Molybdenum  2.........0........0.......0........0........0........32.........65........77........72.......54
Boron       6.........4........3.......1........1........2.........1...….....20........26........24.......32

ADDITIVE METALS-PPM
Magnesium   14.......11.......16.......10.......13.......11.......12.........535.......684.......727......931
Calcium    3394.....3531.....4351.....3589.....3022.....3520.....2417.......1311......1086......1110......1044
Phosph     568.......497......809......929......895.....1037......643........662......684........642.......833
Zinc       691.......591.......989.....1130.....1084....1236......757........817......836........808......1079

V100C       10.9.....10.8.....12.7.....14.3.....15.2....12.7.....10.2.......10.3......10.2......10.8......13.3
IR Oxidation 58.......64.......61......25.......67......50........27.........23...…...17.........22.........42
IR Nitra     39.......41.......17.......9.......18......18........15.........15.......11...….....15........16
TBN        2.66.....2.18.....2.48.....2.35.....1.89.....2.22......1.43......2.64.....2.92......2.32......2.51
 
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186
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When I got this report, I decided to change the oil & filter. By that time the oil had another 500 miles on it, 11.5k. I sent a sample to Blackstone and await the results to see what they have to say.
 
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186
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I received results from Blackstone for the same oil sample that I started this thread about. The #s were near identical, as they should be, to the #11 OAI #s mentioned previously in this thread. But IMO, the comments from OAI are more conservative and helpful. Its been 10 yrs since I have sent a sample to Blackstone for this reason. I wished OAI provided "universal average" #s. They do provide most everything Blackstone does, plus TBN, Oxidation, and Nitration #s all for <$30. I'm gonna stick with OAI. I got to lookin again at the OAI sample #11 comments about Nitration. They say: "NITRATION is at a MINOR level. Potential causes are 1) extended drain interval; 2) elevated operating temperature; 3) blow by; 4) or improper PVC; 5) improper air/fuel ratio, 6) vehicle loading." IMO, #4 was the most likely possibility. So I pulled the PVC off the engine, and sure enough it was a mess. I tried soaking it in B12. It helped, but not completely. So I installed a new one. I also clean the MAP sensor and throttle body. Both were dirty too, so maybe #5 applies too. Shame on me. .
 

dnewton3

Staff member
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Indianapolis, IN
You've got cumulative errors in your OCI duration math ... if I add the unique OCIs to the starting point of 53k miles, I end up at 186.6k miles; that being 10k miles short of your indicated 196.6k miles. Did you miss a OCI in there somewhere and just spread out the miles over the remaining data points???
 
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186
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San Antonio,TX
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No math errors because I don't automatically change the oil when I send in a sample or get the results back. I usually wait to see the results, which usually indicates to me that there is life left in the oil, so I go a couple of more thousand miles, THEN change the oil.
 
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186
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San Antonio,TX
Thread starter
Originally Posted by dnewton3
So what's your trigger for the OCI? What is condemning the lube? Where's all the Si coming from?
I'm no expert. If everything else is normal, I condemn my oil when the TBN is between 2 and 3. I don't know where the SI is coming from? I've visually looked many times? I tried 4 different air filter elements. Someday I'll buy a smoker to see if its an induction leak.
Originally Posted by paoester
Try The Critic's Valvoline next time to clean that puppy's rings. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5232562/1 It's half POE, PAO is there, some AN's, etc. Cleaning oil.
I'm no expert. My rings are clean. The engine doesn't consume any oil. You won't ever catch me adding anything to the crankcase that will dislodge accumulated debris. One of the many jobs oil has is to remove contaminates out of the flow and deposit them where they won't harm anything. Here's a picture of my spark plugs that I replaced yesterday. The engine has 197k miles and the plugs have 47k miles on them. Gaps when new were .040". They came out yesterday at .048". [Linked Image]
 

dnewton3

Staff member
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Knowing only the TBN without TAN really isn't telling us much. And, TBH, there's no evidence that today's engines see any wear affected by the base/acid relationship; none whatsoever. We've seen great UOAs where the TBN/TAN inverted, and yet nothing went wrong at all. I cannot think of a UOA in the last 10 years that showed a direct relationship between wear and base/acid. There have been scant few with any correlation, none that I can believe to show causation. - Generally seeing a wear rate extend past "normal" (in the true statistical sense) would be a reason, or - Exceeding a magnitude in a wear metal or soot that truly indicates there's a limit that induces concern (true values based on discovery, not bias based on heresy). Fe at 100pm, Cu at 50ppm, etc ...
 
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186
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Life is a compromise, one after another, a balancing act. At what exact mile should we change our oil? I certainly don't know. These days, I'd really perfer not to take the OCI to the point where I hurt the old girl. She's not long in the tooth yet, and I don't want to see it happen sooner than later by me taking the OCI too far. The older the old girl and I get, the less I'm willing to risk. For a squid like me, I don't think I'm doing too badly. My "I'm no expert" method doesn't appear to be destoying anything, and since Toyota recommendeds 5K mile OCIs, I'm somewhere in between too soon and too late. That's the way I see it. How do you see it? PS: 5k mile OCI??? The Toyota engineers probably gave it a 10k mile OCI, then the legal dept divided that by 2.
 
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640
Location
Colorado
Originally Posted by jetman
For a squid like me, I don't think I'm doing too badly..
I've never heard anybody refer to themselves as a "squid". Is that Australian or British slang or something? I did a quick Urban Dictionary on it and it says it refers to a motorcyclist who is all bravado with no skill, which doesn't apply here, as far as I know. The Valvoline oil (from The Critic's thread) I recommended above isn't an additive, its a full synthetic oil. Sounded like you thought it was an additive.(?) That said, it is likely very aggressive in cleaning the carbon off of ringlands, so maybe caution is good here on a 200,000 mile engine. And it doesn't burn oil so maybe not even needed. A lot of engines these days have intelligent oil life monitors to tell you when an oil change is need, fairly accurate since it looks at hot-cold cycles, stress, and other factors directly. For a Toyota, I don't think they do any of that. GM, Ford, & German cars have it. Toyota Owner's Manual oil change schedules do assume you're using the worst example within their spec range, in this case low-performance API ILSAC SM (not even the current better SN) conventional oil from 2006, not exactly all that great compared to many full synthetic oils these days. Therefore, in 2019, we can choose higher performance oils like dexos1 and Castrol Edge's SN+ oils, which have some "20,000 mile rated" oils to choose from, namely Mobil1 Annual Protection 5w30 or Castrol Edge Extended Performance 5w30. I personally am too afraid to take them 20,000 miles, unless I had all highway driving, and was using a Fram Ultra oil filter, but for most of us, they easily go to 10,000 miles in a 2007 FJ Cruiser. Bottom Line: Oils in 2019 are generally better than they were in 2006 when the Owner's Manual was printed. We can take advantage of that. If it was me, I'd probably step up to Mobil1 0w40 229.5 oil cheap from walmart in that FJ Cruiser as it ages. Its not much thicker than a 5w30 anyway, as kv100 is only about 15% higher than a 5w30. And the 229.5 performance rating puts it in a much higher category than what Toyota originally had in mind for the 4.0L.
 

dnewton3

Staff member
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8,454
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Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted by jetman
Life is a compromise, one after another, a balancing act. At what exact mile should we change our oil? I certainly don't know. These days, I'd really perfer not to take the OCI to the point where I hurt the old girl. She's not long in the tooth yet, and I don't want to see it happen sooner than later by me taking the OCI too far. The older the old girl and I get, the less I'm willing to risk. For a squid like me, I don't think I'm doing too badly. My "I'm no expert" method doesn't appear to be destoying anything, and since Toyota recommendeds 5K mile OCIs, I'm somewhere in between too soon and too late. That's the way I see it. How do you see it? PS: 5k mile OCI??? The Toyota engineers probably gave it a 10k mile OCI, then the legal dept divided that by 2.
I guess I don't understand why you would pay for a service (UOA) and then not use the data to make more-informed decisions. But, you're not alone in that regard; I'll estimate 90% or more of the folks here do the same thing ... If you are OK with wasting info, you're gonna be OK wasting the lube; they go hand-in-hand. I apologize because I'm sure it seems I'm picking on you; that's not my intent. Rather, I try to challenge folks to step outside the "normal' BITOG mentality, and really understand how/why to use UOAs. For most here, they are not tools, but toys. You're not alone in your approach. UOAs are not perfect, nor are they the only tool to use when trying to ascertain a good maintenance program. Maintenance can be broken down into three types 1) Preventative maintenance; this is when you just follow some predetermined schedule that is "safe" only from a standpoint of over-consumption and anecdotal evidence of the masses. 2) Predictive maintenance; this is using tools like UOAs, PCs, thermal imaging, vibration analysis, statistical analysis, etc to truly see the overall shape of the equipment, and also tailor the maintenance efforts to meet a good ROI while also assuring safe operation 3) Panic maintenance; this is just a "run 'er 'til she breaks" mentality - expensive and foolish, but some people actually do this There's nothing wrong with "preventative" approach; typically it's safe. But it's very wasteful because it's often predicated on the notion that more is always better, and therefore overly frequent service can cause pain in the wallet. And at times, it can actually be detrimental to the equipment, causing higher wear. (True facts: wear rates typically go lower as the OCIs mature, and servicing things like air filters too often can actually allow more particulate into a system). Preventative maintenance is typically very safe, but it's also very wasteful. My point is that you're paying for data; you went and got a UOA - that's a tool in the "predictive" toolbox. And yet you're ignoring the data you pay for, and eschew it in favor of turning right back to preventative maintenance practices. You're doubling down on waste! I can assure you that all data points to longer OCIs (out to 15k miles) actually giving lower wear rates with very, very few exceptions. Also, the panic-induced mentality of "it's gonna sludge up after 5k miles" is also a thing of the past. Engines run cleaner and lubes are well fortified against such things. This ain't your daddy's car nor his lube from the 1970s. If you intend to stick to 5k mile OCIs (and that's OK if that's your preference), then do two things: - get the least expensive API certified lube you can get in 5w-20 or 5w-30; a typical house brand conventional lube, or any brand name that's on a BOGO deal - quit wasting money on UOAs, because you're not using the data to any useful end anyway
 
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I appreciate y'alls input. I don't mind spending/wasting my $ on UOA. I think a lot of other BITOGers don't mind either? I know the 3 labs I use like my $. The first sentence of all my threads about my FJs UOA results start with: "The reason I do used oil analysis and extended oil changes is: 1) I find it interesting; 2) so we all might learn something." Am I wasting $? Is anybody learning anything? I think so, myself included. And I know I find all of this stuff interesting. So, mission accomplished. As a bonus, can anybody deny that I'm not saving some time and some of our natural resources vs what the factory recommends, or vs the 3k mile OCI that I use to do 11+ yrs ago ? And if anybody else in the BITOG world is following my lead? the results are compounded. Another bonus, extended OCis save me $ on oil, filters, and has indicated a problem or two that needed my attention or bad things were gonna happen, which again saved me $. I go thru a lot of oil/yr(see my signature?), so in recent yrs I look for deep discounts, not just WalMart size discounts. I purchased the Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w40 in 2018 for $10/gal. I also purchase 25 gals of Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15w40 for $5/gal. I took advantage of a NAPA sale combined with a Mobil mail-in rebate program. Mobil mailed me a check for $242.SWEET!! The Mobil mail-in rebate program for 2019 isn't as generous. But, I have already taken advantage of it and an O'Reillys sale to purchase Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w30 for $13/gal. The oil I have on hand now will last me to 2021. Dnewton3, if I can find the Mobil 0w40 you mentioned for cheap, I'll give it a go. Squid?? I'm not certain where I picked up that saying 40+ yrs ago? I'm a Texan, maybe that's it? I have been running in drag racing, engine building, chassis building circles as a hobby for 40+ yrs. I probably I picked it up there? I use "squid" in a humble way, to say I'm nothing special, just an average Joe. I guess it can be used in a derogatory fashion too? Depends on the context. Again, I appreciate y'alls input. [i][/i]
 
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