Harley 360 oil, VR1 oil conventional. High Heat

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726
Location
Colorado, USA
Hey, when you have a wife on the bike or a wife in a boat, the wife and whichever one she chooses is the sure bet! In the grand scheme we're going to agree to disagree on the precise rating down to the letter on which oils to choose from. I think you've even said Harley recommends an HDEO if you can't run the exact detail spec they name. Too many guys on many, many Harleys have run every oil under the sun and I haven't seen one have an issue yet. Anyway, this thread was about what oil to run in the primary and look where we took it. UFO
 
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4,158
Location
N.C.
Originally Posted by Bonz
Hey, when you have a wife on the bike or a wife in a boat, the wife and whichever one she chooses is the sure bet! In the grand scheme we're going to agree to disagree on the precise rating down to the letter on which oils to choose from. I think you've even said Harley recommends an HDEO if you can't run the exact detail spec they name. Too many guys on many, many Harleys have run every oil under the sun and I haven't seen one have an issue yet. Anyway, this thread was about what oil to run in the primary and look where we took it. UFO
Off topic as well but Harley only recommends an HDEO for top offs, and then only if Harley branded oil is not available. My owners manual says to change the oil back to Harley's brand of oil as soon as it's available after topping off with HDEO. Though HDEO will most likely be fine in a Harley, the MOCO is not recommending or endorsing using a diesel speced oil in their motorcycles.
 
Messages
726
Location
Colorado, USA
You just said it all, they recommend using their brand of oil and make the specifications so tight there are very few other choices. Think about it. Harley-Davidson does not know something about making internal combustion engines on a motorcycle so special only a very tight spec will suffice for engine oil.
 
Messages
4,251
Location
South Carolina
Bonz - Oops, turning into a Harley debate, time to bow out for me! Beer2 We all use the oil we do for our own reasons in our vehicles. If you want to go off script that's fine, you can use any justification you wish and convince yourself of it. My point and posts are solid, for some reason, people feel fine using oil not recommended in their Harley (and motorcycles in general) because of nothing but, well, nothing, no reason at all, for some reason it makes them feel better I guess. gman2304 - its been posted a million times, but nothing wrong with your post as some still may not know what the manual says. Here is the direct quote= (quote) " This motorcycle was originally equipped with GENUINE HARLEY-DAVIDSON H-D 360 MOTORCYCLE OIL 20W50. H-D 360 is the preferred oil under normal operating conditions. If operation under extreme cold or heat are expected, refer to Table 1-2 for alternative choices. If necessary and H-D is not available, add oil certified for Diesel engines. Acceptable designations included CH-4, CI-4 and CJ-4. The preferred viscosities, in descending order are: 20w50. 15w40 and 10w40. At the first opportunity, see and authorized dealer to change back to 100 percent Harley-Davidson Oil. " (unquote) To each his own gman, if I am going to use something other then HD oil, I am going to use a HDEO/Diesel oil mentioned "C" rated oil rather then the standard gas non HDEO "S" rated. If someone doesnt see my logic, well its there in print. "Acceptable designations included" CH4, CI4 CJ4 No mention of adding a SJ,SM,SN as an acceptable even as a temporary solution. Also for people who believe the UOAs and VOAs in here, they will notice HD oil is blended like a HDEO but I could care less. At least I am using an "acceptable" substitute even if I dont change back to HD oil, there is a reason for Harley to be mentioning HDEO vs standard oils and choosing a C rated oil certainly makes sense over ANY motorcycle oil or standard car oil. (except HD360 of course)
 
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Messages
4,251
Location
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Saltysquid
Interesting points. Thank you. I realize some have said to stick with the formula plus for the transmission. It seems harley recommends the formula plus and now lists the 80-140 as an acceptable option. My concern is 80-140 seems absurdly thick compared to 75-90 recommended elsewhere . Am i wrong in this? Will this cause clutch drag? I ride two up often and harley lists this as an option for the sporty. Is this a lot different from formula plus? Thanks
As you know I only run the Formula+ in the transmission and primary. It doesnt mean I wont try the new HD Trans/Gear oil. You as well as I live in HOT climates. If HD says the 80-140 is acceptable in your primary and trans mission then I guess it is as long as its mentioned for both. As you know the touring bikes, I could still run the new 80/140 in my transmission and the Formula in my Primary. As far as the 80/140 being "absurdly thick" well its made for Harleys and for use all over the country and we live in the warmer parts of the country so I am sure it will be fine. Also, although sounding "thick" 80/140 is like a 20W60+ ish automotive oil and might be perfect for hot climates, though I agree with your concern about the primary and clutch dragging, yet, cold/Luke warm oil is much thicker then that.. Its a good question/concern !
 
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Messages
2,413
Location
Deep in the heart of Jersey
Harley new and improved primary and transmission oil, can't be view'd as anything but a cheap fix for the oil migration problem Harley has been having with their new bikes. They should have been using gear oil from the beginning, but they didn't. They make the perfect case for not buying the first model year of any vehicle. And as far as Harley goes, the first 2-3 years. Then they will only act when the complaints start hurting sales. If a leak develops, just throw some heavier oil in it. Why fix the problem correctly when heavy oil will slow it down to acceptable levels?.,,,
 
Messages
4,251
Location
South Carolina
Originally Posted by BigCahuna
Harley new and improved primary and transmission oil, can't be view'd as anything but a cheap fix for the oil migration problem Harley has been having with their new bikes. They should have been using gear oil from the beginning, but they didn't. They make the perfect case for not buying the first model year of any vehicle. And as far as Harley goes, the first 2-3 years. Then they will only act when the complaints start hurting sales. If a leak develops, just throw some heavier oil in it. Why fix the problem correctly when heavy oil will slow it down to acceptable levels?.,,,
I can certainly agree with waiting 2 to 3 years. Even though a large number of bikes don't seem affected at these prices I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing it could happen to me. Add to that the sumping issues with the early M8 bikes. Again certainly not everybody, most seem thrilled with the engine yet many affected With almost heartbreaking stories. From what I read in the forums though the migration issue has been cured in 2019 with the addition of a vent And I'm not sure but I think they solved the sumping issue with the new oil pump. I myself have lost any interest in the M8 because my 2014 103 has been rock solid reliable, would be too afraid to switch even more so with the prices. Also as a disclaimer I really don't follow the M8 forum like I used too. I suspect my fears may be unfounded but I can tell from your post you'll understand what I'm saying
 
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Messages
4,251
Location
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Jimiii
Bonz- as far as the oil shearing in a shared sump, taking extreme heat out of the equation, the "VI's" will be broken into useless little pieces within the first 600-800 miles by the transmission gears. Very little shearing will continue, at least at a much slower rate, after that. The reason true synthetic bases (group 4/5), shear less is that they need far less "VI's", as a real synthetic oil base does not thin as much with heat, so there are less VI's" to begin with- less to get ground up in transmission. Your example indicates the Mobil 1 10-40 cycle oil has more quality base to begin with, then does the 15-50. If alarmguy sends off his 15-50 fo analysis, it will be interesting to see how it holds up when subjected to only high heat. BTW I use only Mobil 1 15-50 in my 2014 limited with 4000 mile oci's. My previous bike was an 1800 Goldwing and I used Mobil 1 5-40 turbo diesel in it for the entire 108,000 miles I owned it. I did do an analysis, 4000 mile oci. The 5-40 did shear slightly in that shared sump Goldwing, but stayed close. Alarmguy- I agree that if you get the Mystic cheap, and change it often, and the oil is doing its job for the miles it is in the engine, that's a good plan.
Somehow I missed this post, many times I am on the run looking at my phone, except mornings with my coffee and Mac desktop. Good post and good explanation, I agree on the viscosity but would add that I dont care if its conventional or synthetic, from what I have seen in the last dare I say decade of UOAs ... its more the spread such as a 5/40 Rotella vs a 15 or 20. What caught my attention and glad I finally saw your post is that you are using Mobil 1 15/50. Very cool. Anything I say past this sentence I am on the fence about right now, so here we go :o) Im not sure if I am going to do a UOA on the Mobile 1. I started this all out just as an experiment to see if a full syn vs a semi syn would result in lower oil temperatures. Im not saying I ever believed it, or better said, never believed that there would be a large difference but some have claimed it in the past and I am testing that theory trying out the Mobil 1 15/50 vs the Mystic 15/50. With that said I fully intend to go back to the Mystik, another reason was also I was getting low on my 8 gallon supply of the Mystik and wasnt sure if would have enough left over to change the oil in my boat in which I use the Mystik, so played it safe and thought this would be the perfect time to try the Mobil 1 in the bike, well, I have just enough Mystik left over for the bike so easy for me to change back at anytime and/or order more. Anyway, so my impressions are not any different then the Mystik really, Im surprised the engine doesnt sound much different but there is one concern and here is where I went wrong with the Mobil 1 test (so maybe I will try it again) With the Mobile 1 I am also using a HiFlo filter, I have used them in the past and, well, its a filter. Anyway, making the following statement is very premature, the other day after the bike was sitting a week I was surprised to start the bike and here a VERY brief "clatter" the same exact clatter you here after you change the oil and filter. Except this one lasted only about 1 or 2 seconds, very brief but enough to say to myself hmmmm ... is it the Mobil 1 or HiFlo? Maybe the filter bled down a little or was the Mobile 1 a little thin and bled down. Maybe I will never hear it again. After thinking about it for a week, I think it is the HiFlo and might switch that out to the HD filter. I am REALLY trying to recall but thinking back some time ago, I thought I experienced the same thing when I tired a HiFlo in the past, went back to HD filters but as time went on I forgot about it and bought two more HiFlo's anyway... So, today is Friday, its looking like we will be doing our 2 hour 2up interstate trip to the Beach on a nice hot day tomorrow. Saturday, high is supposed to be 93 degrees (hope not lower) but I am hoping more for 95+ but only talking a few degrees, 93 is acceptable for over a 1.5 hour interstate run and 20 local traffic run (each way). Thing about the weather here in SC is until the night before, you never know if the forecast is going to be correct. I guess we live in an area of the country where to this day, forecasts are soooooo unreliable. If we go Ill know exactly how my oil temp experiment goes, I made this trip so many times as I said, I know the oils temps like the back of my hand with the Mystik and will be an interesting comparison. Once done I may or may not dump the Mobil 1 when I get home and go back to the Mystik. I'll know more for sure. I kind of expect it to be the same, temp wise and noise wise just based on local riding. Anyway, cool to hear you use the Mobil 1. Im sure its a good oil for the bike, I just have this hang up and wish it was rated HEDO higher then CF. I know it doesnt matter, but again, doesnt matter if I go back to the Mystik either. Soooooo ... well .. *LOL* ... whatever ! Its oil! Heck I could get crazy and keep with the Mobil, if I did that, I would do a UOA for fun.
 
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Messages
18
Location
Indiana
Originally Posted by alarmguy
BTW - Cahuna I see people in the M8 forum still complaining about oil migration, even on their 2019 touring with the vent.
So far the addition of the vent has cured my migration problem on my 2019 Road King Special. We'll see long term.
 
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4,251
Location
South Carolina
^^ Hope it all works out for you Randol ... Saturday morning, looks like we are going to take a 2 hour run to the beach, even though forecast went from mostly sunny to partly sunny in the last 12 hours, still looks like a 90 degree day to an 86 degree day at the beach.
 
Messages
169
Location
chicago
I have been using Shell Rotella T5 15w-40 in the primary of both my bikes for YEARS now. Lot's of miles no issues and reasonably priced. Trans of both bikes have gone thru a myriad of lubes.....but all have been gear lubes, never engine oil. No issues again in this dept except one time I used something synthetic, I don't recall the brand, but it gave me real bad shifting in my old Evo and when I changed it I had shavings in the oil. Flushed a couple times and replaced with conventional gear lube and all is fine. I wish I could recall what I used.......
 
Messages
3
Location
Great White North
welcome Remember when Harley advised against using synthetic oil? Said the H-D 360 was the oil designed and tested for their engines. Any good motorcycle synthetic oil would be good.
Yes! Exactly why I simply don't trust HD. I suspect they advised against full synthetic because they didn't offer an HD branded one that they could cash in on (until recently). I don't believe for a second that HD cares about the longevity of my engine beyond the warranty period - I personally believe they will produce their oil as cheaply as possible and market it for the maximum profit, designing it to the minimum standard only. You'll recall that they also recommended HD-360's use in all 3 holes - engine, primary and transmission. (yikes!). Only full synthetic in my bike.
 
Messages
4,251
Location
South Carolina
^^^ I always ran the recommended oil type in my engines, including my Harley, never had an issue. ^^^
My 14 Road King has been trouble free, never a repair, now 6 years and 30,000 miles.
 
Messages
2,413
Location
Deep in the heart of Jersey
Harley only recommend's their branded oil for use in their motorcycles. But says you can run diesel oil if you don't have Harley oil on hand. And to change back to Harley oil asap. So your running an oil that was never intended to be used in a Harley, call up mystic and ask them if they recommend it for use in your bike. Even tho the uoa's show good results for your bike. So if a voa shows the same level or higher anti wear ingredients in a aftermarket specific motorcycle oil as compared to Harley's oil, that oil isn't considered sufficient proof it will give proper service protection, in your mind? I haven't seen in any Harley manual where they recommend 15/50 wt oil, but again you run it. When you go thru the uoa's and look at all the brands of oil people use down thru the years, it's obvious it doesn't matter if you A) use Harley oil or B) adhere to their wt recommendations. As far as never having to need a motor repair based on using a Harley recommended oil, I know at least 50 guys that have never used Harley's oil in their bikes, and can make that same claim. Motor damage almost always can be attributed to neglect or abuse. Never checking the oil level ,lugging the motor, or drag racing a motor that was never made to be raced, caused most if not all needed repairs. People that modify their motors in their garages thinking it's so easy even a cave man can do it, also add to the number of blown up motors. It's not the oils fault if the parts don't work right you installed. And this applies to every brand of motorcycle. Most realize the dealers game is to sell a product. Oil is the product. They don't make it, they just sell it. If it was mandatory to only use use Harley's branded oil, according the the Magnesun moss act, they would have to supply it to the Harley purchasers free of charge. So being Harley doesn't feel THAT strongly about what oil can be used in their bikes, it sends the message any brand of oil will work in the correct recommended weight. And you know, they're right.,,,
 
Messages
4,251
Location
South Carolina
..So if a voa shows the same level or higher anti wear ingredients in a aftermarket specific motorcycle oil as compared to Harley's oil, that oil isn't considered sufficient proof it will give proper service protection, in your mind?
Absolutely not (to answer your question)
A VOA shows little to nothing about a modern oil, except to test for a few compounds, the same compounds used since almost he beginning of time.
There is a heck of a lot more to modern oil then in any of these UOAs and VOAs in here. Its why I buy (and almost anyone I know) buys the recommended "Grade" of oil most times referred to as the API rating for their vehicles.
Harley mentions a Commercial HDEO (diesel/gas) as a substitute instead of their oil, so that is the oil I use.

I dont take it upon myself to use an oil not mentioned, even as a temporary substitute I wouldn't use a gasoline only oil, when the engine maker calls for a Diesel engine oil. Will it matter? Who cares? But for some reason, it drives you nuts and you have been harping on my choice and reason for doing so, for years now in these forums.
My UOAs of which I have posted 5 or more of them have always been stellar. Why would I chose a different oil API CH4+ and higher rated oil as mentioned in the Owners manual?

(for the others in here, I just bought another 4 gallons delivered from Zoro online, Mystik JT8 15w50, for $76.00 including tax and shipping)
I used to use Rural King but do not think they are shipping anymore)
 
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Messages
726
Location
Colorado, USA
Absolutely not (to answer your question)
A VOA shows little to nothing about a modern oil, except to test for a few compounds, the same compounds used since almost he beginning of time.
There is a heck of a lot more to modern oil then in any of these UOAs and VOAs in here. Its why I buy (and almost anyone I know) buys the recommended "Grade" of oil most times referred to as the API rating for their vehicles.
Harley mentions a Commercial HDEO (diesel/gas) as a substitute instead of their oil, so that is the oil I use.

I dont take it upon myself to use an oil not mentioned, even as a temporary substitute I wouldn't use a gasoline only oil, when the engine maker calls for a Diesel engine oil. Will it matter? Who cares? But for some reason, it drives you nuts and you have been harping on my choice and reason for doing so, for years now in these forums.
My UOAs of which I have posted 5 or more of them have always been stellar. Why would I chose a different oil API CH4+ and higher rated oil as mentioned in the Owners manual?

(for the others in here, I just bought another 4 gallons delivered from Zoro online, Mystik JT8 15w50, for $76.00 including tax and shipping)
I used to use Rural King but do not think they are shipping anymore)
I gather M115w50 is still in the bike until the riding season is done?

Jimiii said it a while back, will be interesting to see how M1 15w50 holds up when subjected only to high heat vs how it sheared down to a lower 40wt in my shared sump ZRX1200 over a 4,000 mile OCI.
 
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Messages
4,251
Location
South Carolina
I gather M115w50 is still in the bike until the riding season is done?
Yes, darn it, trying to get some more mileage on it but if I dont in the next couple weeks I will change the oil with the Mystik and send the M1 sample to Blackstone. As you can see from my post, I am staying with the JT8. My experiment regarding heat seems to be pretty much insignificant, full syn vs. semi syn, pretty much the same oil temps give or take a few degrees.
Not sure if you saw my posts, I did get up to the Smoky Mountains in August, so that was some mileage and before that it got tortured in beach traffic, so I am looking forward to the results on the M1..
Its just since we bought a boat last year ( I should say my wife bought a boat and I helped*L*) has been competing with my riding time and there isnt going to be a whole lot of mileage on the oil, maybe if I am lucky 2000 miles but will change it out before winter anyway.

Boat has been a distraction but if I dont get on this bike more in the next year I may consider downsizing to a Concours or Tracer. Really like the Tracer but think it is a little extreme for me to go to a chain drive. I absolute hate the idea of a chain drive and most likely would regret it no matter how much I think I like the bike.

Also the Concours I find appealing but then not losing much weight over the Road King I have now and dont get me wrong, to this day I am still in awe every time I hit the interstate (which is most my riding) on the Road King. So chances are I will do nothing but "think" about things *L*
The power/torque of the RK in the mountiains, 2 up, tons of luggage and the freaking bike just takes it all in stride, doesnt break a sweat. Amazes me.
 
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