G-05 and Asian sharing the same NJTS#s..why ??

[Petersubaru]

sorry if this has been covered before..looking at the MSDS for both the G-05 and Asian coolants RTU (50/50), ..what is the difference between the two products ..both have the same glycol(s) at slightly different percentages from one another,.. both share the same organic acid NJTS#s

 

[mechanicx]

Do you have the link? Which brand of Asian formula are you comparing? G-05 is very different from Asian formula. They share almost nothing in the inhibitor pack.

G-05=Benzoate, silicates, borates, nitrite and nitrate, and a triazole.

Asian extended life formula=sebacate, phosphate, a triazole, and possibly nitrate. No silicates and no borates or nitrites. AVF uses potassium hydroxide for a buffer instead of borate.

If two anti-freeze share the same NJTS number then maybe it's possible that number has several different anti-freeze files under it?

 

[Petersubaru]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Do you have the link? Which brand of Asian formula are you comparing? G-05 is very different from Asian formula. They share almost nothing in the inhibitor pack.

G-05=Benzoate, silicates, borates, nitrite and nitrate, and a triazole.

Asian extended life formula=sebacate, phosphate, a triazole, and possibly nitrate. No silicates and no borates or nitrites. AVF uses potassium hydroxide for a buffer instead of borate.

If two anti-freeze share the same NJTS number then maybe it's possible that number has several different anti-freeze files under it?

..Not able to give a direct link,..but "google" Zerex ..under each product picture "click" on the MSDS ..on the msds web page type g-05(langauge english)and look for the RTU(ready to use)50/50...then type asian ..looking forward to your opinion

 

[mechanicx]

I looked at the MSDS and I couldn't find any mention of a NJST RN anywhere. All the MSDS list is the ethylene glycol and none of the inhibitors. I don't know why they don't have to list the chemicals of the inhibitors.


All the MSDS looked like this one:
Zerex Asian formula

Antifreeze MSDS

 

[Mr Nice]

so G-05 is a no no for Hondas ?

 

[mechanicx]

OK I selected the Ford G-05. Valvoline is a supplier. It listed nitrite and nitrate in the ingrediaents. I guess the silicates, benzoate, borate and the triazole isn't toxic enough to list or something. Maybe if you click on the different MSDS it will give you different ingredient information. MSDS arre a poor source for this info.

Ford G-05

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
so G-05 is a no no for Hondas ?

Well Honda like all Japanese manufacturers' coolant recommendations don't recommend silicates, which G-05 has. Zerex actually recommends G-05 for '95 and older Japanese cars. For '96 and newer Zerex recommends Dexcool. Despite the silicates I personally would feel safer with using G-05. Of course the Zerex AVF would be better, and possibly Peak Global.

 

[mechanicx]

This is interesting. If you click on the Chrysler G-05 and click on the "English" PDF it only lists the borate. But if you click on the "reference MSDS", keep in mind it's for the exact same product, it lists every ingredient known to be in G-O5-benzoate, borate, silicate, nitrite-except for nitrate and the triazole. It's the same product and the G-05 antifreeze would have to have the full inhibitor pack. You could not just use anti-freeze with borate alone.

The MSDS are screwy.

Chrysler antifreeze

 

[mechanicx]

OK I did find what you were saying.

G-05 50/50 ORGANIC SALT NJTS# 254504001-5054 >=1.5- ASIAN VEHICLE ORGANIC SALT NJTS# 254504001-5054 >=1.5-
The NJTS number is the same. We know the organic salt in G-05 is sodium benzoate. I don't think that necessarily means that sodium benzoate is the organic acid in Zerex Asian Vehicle Formula but it could be.

The original Japansese formula has benzoate, but the extended life formula is believed to have sebacate instead. Either the NJTS# isn't distinguishing between actual chemical ingredients for the same manufacturer or Zerex AVF is not extended life or something.

 

[Petersubaru]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I looked at the MSDS and I couldn't find any mention of a NJST RN anywhere. All the MSDS list is the ethylene glycol and none of the inhibitors. I don't know why they don't have to list the chemicals of the inhibitors.


All the MSDS looked like this one:
Zerex Asian formula

Antifreeze MSDS
the links provided don't work for me..not exactly sure what you saw...But where you able to see both the G-05/Asian formula (50/50 mix)..ingredients for both are Glycols and NJTS# 254504001-5054

 

[Petersubaru]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
so G-05 is a no no for Hondas ?

..I drive a newer subaru useing the G-05 for the last 2yrs..still very clean..even the over flow bottle is clean, unlike the orginal stuff ..now if honda is like subaru.. they want no inorganic inhibitors of any kind in the system,... so in theory G-05 would not fit

 

[Petersubaru]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
OK I did find what you were saying.

G-05 50/50 ORGANIC SALT NJTS# 254504001-5054 >=1.5- ASIAN VEHICLE ORGANIC SALT NJTS# 254504001-5054 >=1.5-
The NJTS number is the same. We know the organic salt in G-05 is sodium benzoate. I don't think that necessarily means that sodium benzoate is the organic acid in Zerex Asian Vehicle Formula but it could be.

The original Japansese formula has benzoate, but the extended life formula is believed to have sebacate instead. Either the NJTS# isn't distinguishing between actual chemical ingredients for the same manufacturer or Zerex AVF is not extended life or something.



I don't know if it applies here..but from subarus point of view the old style long life and the newer extra long life can be mixed together if needed

 

[mechanicx]

OK it looks like the NJTS# differs depending on the chemical. Both Audi G12++ and Zerex G12++ have the same number: ORGANIC ACID NJTS# 254504001-5270. That differs from the number for G-05 and Zerex AVF. Looks like G-05 and Zerex AVF are both using benzoate. That is what old Japanese and supposedly American Green used and is also what's in Peak Global.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Petersubaru
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I looked at the MSDS and I couldn't find any mention of a NJST RN anywhere. All the MSDS list is the ethylene glycol and none of the inhibitors. I don't know why they don't have to list the chemicals of the inhibitors.


All the MSDS looked like this one:
Zerex Asian formula

Antifreeze MSDS
the links provided don't work for me..not exactly sure what you saw...But where you able to see both the G-05/Asian formula (50/50 mix)..ingredients for both are Glycols and NJTS# 254504001-5054


Sorry Valvoline's website is apparently not directing to the link I put, instead directing to the main MSDS page. Yeah I saw the NJTS#s and made a post about it above.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Petersubaru
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
OK I did find what you were saying.

G-05 50/50 ORGANIC SALT NJTS# 254504001-5054 >=1.5- ASIAN VEHICLE ORGANIC SALT NJTS# 254504001-5054 >=1.5-
The NJTS number is the same. We know the organic salt in G-05 is sodium benzoate. I don't think that necessarily means that sodium benzoate is the organic acid in Zerex Asian Vehicle Formula but it could be.

The original Japansese formula has benzoate, but the extended life formula is believed to have sebacate instead. Either the NJTS# isn't distinguishing between actual chemical ingredients for the same manufacturer or Zerex AVF is not extended life or something.



I don't know if it applies here..but from subarus point of view the old style long life and the newer extra long life can be mixed together if needed


I think benzoate, sebcate, 2eha and whatever else OAT can be mixed together. The issue with OATs is usually about gasket compatibility. I had made a posts awhile back asking the question if Japanese regular "long life" coolant is really the same as the "extended life" or "super long life" coolant, and it came out that the long life has benzoate and the extended life has sebacate. They both have the inorganic phosphate. The question standing though was if sebacate was a stronger plastizer than benzoate and as much as plasticizer as 2EHA. In other words maybe the 2EHA dexclones are no worse for gasket compatibility than the Japanese extended life coolants.

 

[Petersubaru]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: Petersubaru
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
OK I did find what you were saying.

G-05 50/50 ORGANIC SALT NJTS# 254504001-5054 >=1.5- ASIAN VEHICLE ORGANIC SALT NJTS# 254504001-5054 >=1.5-
The NJTS number is the same. We know the organic salt in G-05 is sodium benzoate. I don't think that necessarily means that sodium benzoate is the organic acid in Zerex Asian Vehicle Formula but it could be.

The original Japansese formula has benzoate, but the extended life formula is believed to have sebacate instead. Either the NJTS# isn't distinguishing between actual chemical ingredients for the same manufacturer or Zerex AVF is not extended life or something.



I don't know if it applies here..but from subarus point of view the old style long life and the newer extra long life can be mixed together if needed


I think benzoate, sebcate, 2eha and whatever else OAT can be mixed together. The issue with OATs is usually about gasket compatibility. I had made a posts awhile back asking the question if Japanese regular "long life" coolant is really the same as the "extended life" or "super long life" coolant, and it came out that the long life has benzoate and the extended life has sebacate. They both have the inorganic phosphate. The question standing though was if sebacate was a stronger plastizer than benzoate and as much as plasticizer as 2EHA. In other words maybe the 2EHA dexclones are no worse for gasket compatibility than the Japanese extended life coolants.
I "doubt" if any Japanese coolant has "inorganic" phosphates in them..not to be confusing here, but, I am only familiar with Subarus and even though they "state" that only Phosphated coolants "must" be used, that is really not the case and a play with words..from Subarus own wording that for starters, "phosphate is no where to be found on there ingredient labels" and "thru the trick of chemistry".."sodium benzoate(organic)and phosphate/phosphoric acid(inorganic)are Virtually interchangable"..they do the same thing..http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/WhatEWNov05.pdf LINK down below

 

[Petersubaru]

http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/WhatEWNov05.pdf

 

[mechanicx]

Japanese coolant has always used phosphate to protect aluminum instead of silicates. Antifreeze bottles don't list every ingredient. Japanese coolant has always been a hybrid of phosphate and an organic acid. Just about all antifreeze contains some inorganic inhibitor and that's a good thing. Even Dexcool the first OAT and about the only OEM coolant that is an OAT and not a hybrid uses triazole which could be considered an inorganic inhibitor. I don't know of any OEM coolant that would just use benzoate and not at least another organic acid or an inorganic. Why do you think G-05 adds silicates, among other inorganic inhibitors, even though it contains benzoate? Benzoate alone won't cut it.

The link you gave itself explained that subaru recommendds a non-amine phosphated coolant. In other words, Subaru recommends inorganic phosphate coolant be used.

 

[Petersubaru]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Japanese coolant has always used phosphate to protect aluminum instead of silicates. Antifreeze bottles don't list every ingredient. Japanese coolant has always been a hybrid of phosphate and an organic acid. Just about all antifreeze contains some inorganic inhibitor and that's a good thing. Even Dexcool the first OAT and about the only OEM coolant that is an OAT and not a hybrid uses triazole which could be considered an inorganic inhibitor. I don't know of any OEM coolant that would just use benzoate and not at least another organic acid or an inorganic. Why do you think G-05 adds silicates, among other inorganic inhibitors, even though it contains benzoate? Benzoate alone won't cut it.

The link you gave itself explained that subaru recommendds a non-amine phosphated coolant. In other words, Subaru recommends inorganic phosphate coolant be used.
I agree with almost everything you have written in the above, except "subaru recommends an inorganic phosphate coolant"..I have never read on any subaru forum the interpretation that you have given concerning the "TB link" I provided above..borrowing from another subaru forum..the General understanding is..(("subaru says to use phosphate non-amine coolant".However,their own coolant contains No phosphate but rather uses by the "trick of chemistry" , they say, sodium benzoate to do the same thing that phosphates can))" and then adding Potassium hydroixde..also, I have it hard to understand, that if subaru puts out a TB stating you will not find phosphate on the ingredient label, ...what else am I going to think??..that subaru is going to add phosphates anyway?? (Peace).. Hopefully back to the original topic..Do you have any further thoughts or insights concerning the same NJTS# for the 50/50 G-05/Asian

 

[mechanicx]

Phosphate is considered an inorganic inhibitor. The non-amine is just emphasizing that it is inorganic. Subaru coolant almost certainly contains phosphate like all Japanese coolant does. Like I said sodium benzoate is never used alone without another inhibitor and no "chemistry trick" is going to make it protect alone.

Silicates can take the place of phophate as can more or less certain organic acids also like sebacate and 2EHA.

As I said earlier G-05 contains benzoate and based on the NJTS# being the same for Zerex Asian Vehicle Formula and G-05 apparently Zerex AVF also uses benzoate. Original Japanese formula contains benzoate but it is believed that extended life Japanese coolant uses sebacate instead. Apparently, Zerex AVF is similar to original Japanese formula and not the extended life formula.

G-05 primarily uses benzoate, plus silicates and borate whereas original japanese formula uses primarily benzoate, plus phosphate and potassium hydroxide to accomplish corrosion protection.