Five Euro Car Myths?
- Thread starter BMWTurboDzl
- Start date
Originally Posted by edyvw
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
One thing I do notice about Euro cars vs. Toyotas...
If you look up common problems with BMWs, Mercedes, VW, etc, you find forums with threads on common issues and stuff to look for. If you look up problems on a Toyota, everyone says they are flawless, which we know is impossible.
All cars break, regardless of brand. My friend finally sold his 2008 Tacoma after owning it from 80,000 miles to 120,000 miles and replaced a lot more parts than he thought he would. No vehicle is flawless, and anyone who thinks so is having tunnel vision.
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
One thing I do notice about Euro cars vs. Toyotas...
If you look up common problems with BMWs, Mercedes, VW, etc, you find forums with threads on common issues and stuff to look for. If you look up problems on a Toyota, everyone says they are flawless, which we know is impossible.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
Not quite sure what you are saying? Pretty sure most people view water pumps as a red flag, period. "Many" here won't touch a Ford 3.5 non-EB because of its failure mode, and when the RAV4 had the 3.5 that failure mode was a given reason to avoid that model.
I know I bought my Tundra based on its nameplate, and had I known of its long list of failure modes I would have skipped it, and gotten something more reliable. My loss, I know, for not doing enough research up front.
*
Hey, I think I asked in the past about TCO. Is it a myth that Euro cars have a higher TCO? Some of us appliance drivers place a higher value on TCO than smiles per mile.
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
Not quite sure what you are saying? Pretty sure most people view water pumps as a red flag, period. "Many" here won't touch a Ford 3.5 non-EB because of its failure mode, and when the RAV4 had the 3.5 that failure mode was a given reason to avoid that model.
I know I bought my Tundra based on its nameplate, and had I known of its long list of failure modes I would have skipped it, and gotten something more reliable. My loss, I know, for not doing enough research up front.
*
Hey, I think I asked in the past about TCO. Is it a myth that Euro cars have a higher TCO? Some of us appliance drivers place a higher value on TCO than smiles per mile.
Originally Posted by Jake_J
Myth #3: European cars are hard to work on
I'm sorry but as somebody that has owned both Japanese and German cars this isn't a myth, it's an unfortunate reality. The two things that really annoy me about working on German cars is the insistence on using an ever expanding array of fasteners in every shape and size and the sheer number of special tools that you would need to acquire if you wanted to do any job following the FSM. If you're working on a Japanese car you know the bolts will be 8,10,12,14,17,19, 21, and 22mm, don't have a 13 or 15mm wrench well don't worry you won't need one. On a modern German car bring all your sockets and wrenches, and don't forget your Allen, Torx, E-Torx, Torx-Plus, security Torx, triple square, pozidrive, etc bits, sockets, and keys/wrenches. On VW/Audi's they use Allen and Torx bolts right next to each other, they do the same thing why not just pick one? If Torx bolts are so much better than Allen bolts, why keep using Allen bolts? And why even entertain the notion of introducing marginally better Torx-Plus or triple square bolts? Special tools are also a constant source of frustration of any DIYer that happens to own even an old and simple German car like an W123 Mercedes. Japanese companies like Toyota design their cars to avoid using special tools when possible, if you don't have a set of plastic trim tools you won't need them on many Toyota's as the FSM will tell you to use a flat screwdriver with tape on the tip. Japanese cars use simple spring type hose clamps, VW/Audi use special obscure Oetiker hose clamps that are one time use, and of course require a special tool to install. And people wonder why do so many people drive Toyota's in developing countries?
This has always been a common complaint about Euro (German) vehicles in the past. I wonder if it's due to how they interact with their suppliers? My understanding is that the Japanese brands actually have an ownership stake in their parts suppliers which allows them to create some sort of consistency whereas the German makes don't have this relationship and just buy whatever the parts suppliers come up with to meet their requirements.
Myth #3: European cars are hard to work on
I'm sorry but as somebody that has owned both Japanese and German cars this isn't a myth, it's an unfortunate reality. The two things that really annoy me about working on German cars is the insistence on using an ever expanding array of fasteners in every shape and size and the sheer number of special tools that you would need to acquire if you wanted to do any job following the FSM. If you're working on a Japanese car you know the bolts will be 8,10,12,14,17,19, 21, and 22mm, don't have a 13 or 15mm wrench well don't worry you won't need one. On a modern German car bring all your sockets and wrenches, and don't forget your Allen, Torx, E-Torx, Torx-Plus, security Torx, triple square, pozidrive, etc bits, sockets, and keys/wrenches. On VW/Audi's they use Allen and Torx bolts right next to each other, they do the same thing why not just pick one? If Torx bolts are so much better than Allen bolts, why keep using Allen bolts? And why even entertain the notion of introducing marginally better Torx-Plus or triple square bolts? Special tools are also a constant source of frustration of any DIYer that happens to own even an old and simple German car like an W123 Mercedes. Japanese companies like Toyota design their cars to avoid using special tools when possible, if you don't have a set of plastic trim tools you won't need them on many Toyota's as the FSM will tell you to use a flat screwdriver with tape on the tip. Japanese cars use simple spring type hose clamps, VW/Audi use special obscure Oetiker hose clamps that are one time use, and of course require a special tool to install. And people wonder why do so many people drive Toyota's in developing countries?
This has always been a common complaint about Euro (German) vehicles in the past. I wonder if it's due to how they interact with their suppliers? My understanding is that the Japanese brands actually have an ownership stake in their parts suppliers which allows them to create some sort of consistency whereas the German makes don't have this relationship and just buy whatever the parts suppliers come up with to meet their requirements.
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Jake_J
Myth #3: European cars are hard to work on
I'm sorry but as somebody that has owned both Japanese and German cars this isn't a myth, it's an unfortunate reality. The two things that really annoy me about working on German cars is the insistence on using an ever expanding array of fasteners in every shape and size and the sheer number of special tools that you would need to acquire if you wanted to do any job following the FSM. If you're working on a Japanese car you know the bolts will be 8,10,12,14,17,19, 21, and 22mm, don't have a 13 or 15mm wrench well don't worry you won't need one. On a modern German car bring all your sockets and wrenches, and don't forget your Allen, Torx, E-Torx, Torx-Plus, security Torx, triple square, pozidrive, etc bits, sockets, and keys/wrenches. On VW/Audi's they use Allen and Torx bolts right next to each other, they do the same thing why not just pick one? If Torx bolts are so much better than Allen bolts, why keep using Allen bolts? And why even entertain the notion of introducing marginally better Torx-Plus or triple square bolts? Special tools are also a constant source of frustration of any DIYer that happens to own even an old and simple German car like an W123 Mercedes. Japanese companies like Toyota design their cars to avoid using special tools when possible, if you don't have a set of plastic trim tools you won't need them on many Toyota's as the FSM will tell you to use a flat screwdriver with tape on the tip. Japanese cars use simple spring type hose clamps, VW/Audi use special obscure Oetiker hose clamps that are one time use, and of course require a special tool to install. And people wonder why do so many people drive Toyota's in developing countries?
This has always been a common complaint about Euro (German) vehicles in the past. I wonder if it's due to how they interact with their suppliers? My understanding is that the Japanese brands actually have an ownership stake in their parts suppliers which allows them to create some sort of consistency whereas the German makes don't have this relationship and just buy whatever the parts suppliers come up with to meet their requirements.
90% of the parts in my vehicle came from country of origin, Japan. I would not doubt this one bit, although I've never researched it personally.
Originally Posted by Jake_J
Myth #3: European cars are hard to work on
I'm sorry but as somebody that has owned both Japanese and German cars this isn't a myth, it's an unfortunate reality. The two things that really annoy me about working on German cars is the insistence on using an ever expanding array of fasteners in every shape and size and the sheer number of special tools that you would need to acquire if you wanted to do any job following the FSM. If you're working on a Japanese car you know the bolts will be 8,10,12,14,17,19, 21, and 22mm, don't have a 13 or 15mm wrench well don't worry you won't need one. On a modern German car bring all your sockets and wrenches, and don't forget your Allen, Torx, E-Torx, Torx-Plus, security Torx, triple square, pozidrive, etc bits, sockets, and keys/wrenches. On VW/Audi's they use Allen and Torx bolts right next to each other, they do the same thing why not just pick one? If Torx bolts are so much better than Allen bolts, why keep using Allen bolts? And why even entertain the notion of introducing marginally better Torx-Plus or triple square bolts? Special tools are also a constant source of frustration of any DIYer that happens to own even an old and simple German car like an W123 Mercedes. Japanese companies like Toyota design their cars to avoid using special tools when possible, if you don't have a set of plastic trim tools you won't need them on many Toyota's as the FSM will tell you to use a flat screwdriver with tape on the tip. Japanese cars use simple spring type hose clamps, VW/Audi use special obscure Oetiker hose clamps that are one time use, and of course require a special tool to install. And people wonder why do so many people drive Toyota's in developing countries?
This has always been a common complaint about Euro (German) vehicles in the past. I wonder if it's due to how they interact with their suppliers? My understanding is that the Japanese brands actually have an ownership stake in their parts suppliers which allows them to create some sort of consistency whereas the German makes don't have this relationship and just buy whatever the parts suppliers come up with to meet their requirements.
90% of the parts in my vehicle came from country of origin, Japan. I would not doubt this one bit, although I've never researched it personally.
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
Not quite sure what you are saying? Pretty sure most people view water pumps as a red flag, period. "Many" here won't touch a Ford 3.5 non-EB because of its failure mode, and when the RAV4 had the 3.5 that failure mode was a given reason to avoid that model.
I know I bought my Tundra based on its nameplate, and had I known of its long list of failure modes I would have skipped it, and gotten something more reliable. My loss, I know, for not doing enough research up front.
*
Hey, I think I asked in the past about TCO. Is it a myth that Euro cars have a higher TCO? Some of us appliance drivers place a higher value on TCO than smiles per mile.
Post thread whether 3.5 V6 RAV4 vehicle to avoid and let's see what happens.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
Not quite sure what you are saying? Pretty sure most people view water pumps as a red flag, period. "Many" here won't touch a Ford 3.5 non-EB because of its failure mode, and when the RAV4 had the 3.5 that failure mode was a given reason to avoid that model.
I know I bought my Tundra based on its nameplate, and had I known of its long list of failure modes I would have skipped it, and gotten something more reliable. My loss, I know, for not doing enough research up front.
*
Hey, I think I asked in the past about TCO. Is it a myth that Euro cars have a higher TCO? Some of us appliance drivers place a higher value on TCO than smiles per mile.
Post thread whether 3.5 V6 RAV4 vehicle to avoid and let's see what happens.
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Jake_J
Myth #3: European cars are hard to work on
I'm sorry but as somebody that has owned both Japanese and German cars this isn't a myth, it's an unfortunate reality. The two things that really annoy me about working on German cars is the insistence on using an ever expanding array of fasteners in every shape and size and the sheer number of special tools that you would need to acquire if you wanted to do any job following the FSM. If you're working on a Japanese car you know the bolts will be 8,10,12,14,17,19, 21, and 22mm, don't have a 13 or 15mm wrench well don't worry you won't need one. On a modern German car bring all your sockets and wrenches, and don't forget your Allen, Torx, E-Torx, Torx-Plus, security Torx, triple square, pozidrive, etc bits, sockets, and keys/wrenches. On VW/Audi's they use Allen and Torx bolts right next to each other, they do the same thing why not just pick one? If Torx bolts are so much better than Allen bolts, why keep using Allen bolts? And why even entertain the notion of introducing marginally better Torx-Plus or triple square bolts? Special tools are also a constant source of frustration of any DIYer that happens to own even an old and simple German car like an W123 Mercedes. Japanese companies like Toyota design their cars to avoid using special tools when possible, if you don't have a set of plastic trim tools you won't need them on many Toyota's as the FSM will tell you to use a flat screwdriver with tape on the tip. Japanese cars use simple spring type hose clamps, VW/Audi use special obscure Oetiker hose clamps that are one time use, and of course require a special tool to install. And people wonder why do so many people drive Toyota's in developing countries?
This has always been a common complaint about Euro (German) vehicles in the past. I wonder if it's due to how they interact with their suppliers? My understanding is that the Japanese brands actually have an ownership stake in their parts suppliers which allows them to create some sort of consistency whereas the German makes don't have this relationship and just buy whatever the parts suppliers come up with to meet their requirements.
It is clutural thing. You can ask German to take out his daughter to date, but DO NOT ask for tools.
Originally Posted by Jake_J
Myth #3: European cars are hard to work on
I'm sorry but as somebody that has owned both Japanese and German cars this isn't a myth, it's an unfortunate reality. The two things that really annoy me about working on German cars is the insistence on using an ever expanding array of fasteners in every shape and size and the sheer number of special tools that you would need to acquire if you wanted to do any job following the FSM. If you're working on a Japanese car you know the bolts will be 8,10,12,14,17,19, 21, and 22mm, don't have a 13 or 15mm wrench well don't worry you won't need one. On a modern German car bring all your sockets and wrenches, and don't forget your Allen, Torx, E-Torx, Torx-Plus, security Torx, triple square, pozidrive, etc bits, sockets, and keys/wrenches. On VW/Audi's they use Allen and Torx bolts right next to each other, they do the same thing why not just pick one? If Torx bolts are so much better than Allen bolts, why keep using Allen bolts? And why even entertain the notion of introducing marginally better Torx-Plus or triple square bolts? Special tools are also a constant source of frustration of any DIYer that happens to own even an old and simple German car like an W123 Mercedes. Japanese companies like Toyota design their cars to avoid using special tools when possible, if you don't have a set of plastic trim tools you won't need them on many Toyota's as the FSM will tell you to use a flat screwdriver with tape on the tip. Japanese cars use simple spring type hose clamps, VW/Audi use special obscure Oetiker hose clamps that are one time use, and of course require a special tool to install. And people wonder why do so many people drive Toyota's in developing countries?
This has always been a common complaint about Euro (German) vehicles in the past. I wonder if it's due to how they interact with their suppliers? My understanding is that the Japanese brands actually have an ownership stake in their parts suppliers which allows them to create some sort of consistency whereas the German makes don't have this relationship and just buy whatever the parts suppliers come up with to meet their requirements.
It is clutural thing. You can ask German to take out his daughter to date, but DO NOT ask for tools.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
Not quite sure what you are saying? Pretty sure most people view water pumps as a red flag, period. "Many" here won't touch a Ford 3.5 non-EB because of its failure mode, and when the RAV4 had the 3.5 that failure mode was a given reason to avoid that model.
I know I bought my Tundra based on its nameplate, and had I known of its long list of failure modes I would have skipped it, and gotten something more reliable. My loss, I know, for not doing enough research up front.
*
Hey, I think I asked in the past about TCO. Is it a myth that Euro cars have a higher TCO? Some of us appliance drivers place a higher value on TCO than smiles per mile.
Post thread whether 3.5 V6 RAV4 vehicle to avoid and let's see what happens.
Pretty sure it has been brought up.
this talks of a myriad of problems, VCT oil lines and rear diff clutch is brought up.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...re-opinions-on-2007-rav-4-v6#Post4410481
This one is centered around the water pump.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2026262
This one debates the transmission (all modes? depends on how you look at it).
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2522171
I'd say it's hit or miss at this point on the RAV4 V6. It came--and went. Too few sold to bother with now. As a used Toyota it's arguable on the "don't bother" list due to the Toyota tax. Outclassed by today's offerings.
What about TCO?
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
Not quite sure what you are saying? Pretty sure most people view water pumps as a red flag, period. "Many" here won't touch a Ford 3.5 non-EB because of its failure mode, and when the RAV4 had the 3.5 that failure mode was a given reason to avoid that model.
I know I bought my Tundra based on its nameplate, and had I known of its long list of failure modes I would have skipped it, and gotten something more reliable. My loss, I know, for not doing enough research up front.
*
Hey, I think I asked in the past about TCO. Is it a myth that Euro cars have a higher TCO? Some of us appliance drivers place a higher value on TCO than smiles per mile.
Post thread whether 3.5 V6 RAV4 vehicle to avoid and let's see what happens.
Pretty sure it has been brought up.
this talks of a myriad of problems, VCT oil lines and rear diff clutch is brought up.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...re-opinions-on-2007-rav-4-v6#Post4410481
This one is centered around the water pump.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2026262
This one debates the transmission (all modes? depends on how you look at it).
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2522171
I'd say it's hit or miss at this point on the RAV4 V6. It came--and went. Too few sold to bother with now. As a used Toyota it's arguable on the "don't bother" list due to the Toyota tax. Outclassed by today's offerings.
What about TCO?
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
Not quite sure what you are saying? Pretty sure most people view water pumps as a red flag, period. "Many" here won't touch a Ford 3.5 non-EB because of its failure mode, and when the RAV4 had the 3.5 that failure mode was a given reason to avoid that model.
I know I bought my Tundra based on its nameplate, and had I known of its long list of failure modes I would have skipped it, and gotten something more reliable. My loss, I know, for not doing enough research up front.
*
Hey, I think I asked in the past about TCO. Is it a myth that Euro cars have a higher TCO? Some of us appliance drivers place a higher value on TCO than smiles per mile.
Post thread whether 3.5 V6 RAV4 vehicle to avoid and let's see what happens.
Pretty sure it has been brought up.
this talks of a myriad of problems, VCT oil lines and rear diff clutch is brought up.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...re-opinions-on-2007-rav-4-v6#Post4410481
This one is centered around the water pump.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2026262
This one debates the transmission (all modes? depends on how you look at it).
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2522171
I'd say it's hit or miss at this point on the RAV4 V6. It came--and went. Too few sold to bother with now. As a used Toyota it's arguable on the "don't bother" list due to the Toyota tax. Outclassed by today's offerings.
What about TCO?
TCO? I owned 40+ cars, by far highest TCO was Toyota Land Cruiser Prado. So, please...
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
Not quite sure what you are saying? Pretty sure most people view water pumps as a red flag, period. "Many" here won't touch a Ford 3.5 non-EB because of its failure mode, and when the RAV4 had the 3.5 that failure mode was a given reason to avoid that model.
I know I bought my Tundra based on its nameplate, and had I known of its long list of failure modes I would have skipped it, and gotten something more reliable. My loss, I know, for not doing enough research up front.
*
Hey, I think I asked in the past about TCO. Is it a myth that Euro cars have a higher TCO? Some of us appliance drivers place a higher value on TCO than smiles per mile.
Post thread whether 3.5 V6 RAV4 vehicle to avoid and let's see what happens.
Pretty sure it has been brought up.
this talks of a myriad of problems, VCT oil lines and rear diff clutch is brought up.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...re-opinions-on-2007-rav-4-v6#Post4410481
This one is centered around the water pump.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2026262
This one debates the transmission (all modes? depends on how you look at it).
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2522171
I'd say it's hit or miss at this point on the RAV4 V6. It came--and went. Too few sold to bother with now. As a used Toyota it's arguable on the "don't bother" list due to the Toyota tax. Outclassed by today's offerings.
What about TCO?
TCO? I owned 40+ cars, by far highest TCO was Toyota Land Cruiser Prado. So, please...
Originally Posted by edyvw
TCO? I owned 40+ cars, by far highest TCO was Toyota Land Cruiser Prado. So, please...
But that's an SUV (a luxury one at that?). What about TCO on the sedan/wagons? Plain jane commuters please, nothing fancy, just every day boring vehicles.
I don't have the option for public transportation and I'm not moving to a city. So don't bother with suggesting that.
What are my options for low cost motoring? At least pre-COVID I would aim for 10yr/300k ownership, so let's just assume I'll go back to that and shop with that in mind. [I might get lucky and the new norm might have me working from home, in which case I may well have to rethink vehicle strategy.]
TCO? I owned 40+ cars, by far highest TCO was Toyota Land Cruiser Prado. So, please...
But that's an SUV (a luxury one at that?). What about TCO on the sedan/wagons? Plain jane commuters please, nothing fancy, just every day boring vehicles.
I don't have the option for public transportation and I'm not moving to a city. So don't bother with suggesting that.
What are my options for low cost motoring? At least pre-COVID I would aim for 10yr/300k ownership, so let's just assume I'll go back to that and shop with that in mind. [I might get lucky and the new norm might have me working from home, in which case I may well have to rethink vehicle strategy.]
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
TCO? I owned 40+ cars, by far highest TCO was Toyota Land Cruiser Prado. So, please...
But that's an SUV (a luxury one at that?). What about TCO on the sedan/wagons? Plain jane commuters please, nothing fancy, just every day boring vehicles.
I don't have the option for public transportation and I'm not moving to a city. So don't bother with suggesting that.
What are my options for low cost motoring? At least pre-COVID I would aim for 10yr/300k ownership, so let's just assume I'll go back to that and shop with that in mind. [I might get lucky and the new norm might have me working from home, in which case I may well have to rethink vehicle strategy.]
Only plain jane commuter of Japanese origin I had was Mazda Millenia, which was so, so when it comes to TCO (for example it costed me more money than my Alfa Romeo 146). I have Sienna which required complete brake overhaul at 42k (same issue like Prado, but not as horrid as Prado), it will require rear shock absorbers at 70k, which none of my Euro cars ever needed at that mileage, and probably again before end of the year front brakes, although BMW is doing all hard work.
Other than that I always had Euro vehicles to commute. None ever refused to start, unlike Mazda and Toyota. I use my BMW for commuting, grocery shopping, daycare runs, skiing, driving baby around to fall a sleep etc. I use Sienna ONLY if I do not have any other option due to number of people or if I am doing family road trip. If I could put 7 people in BMW, I would do. Other than that, it is parked.
By the way my Prado does not even have leather seats, and has one disc audio system which sounds horrible, and as cherry on top, it has manual rear windows. There is nothing luxury about that vehicle.
Originally Posted by edyvw
TCO? I owned 40+ cars, by far highest TCO was Toyota Land Cruiser Prado. So, please...
But that's an SUV (a luxury one at that?). What about TCO on the sedan/wagons? Plain jane commuters please, nothing fancy, just every day boring vehicles.
I don't have the option for public transportation and I'm not moving to a city. So don't bother with suggesting that.
What are my options for low cost motoring? At least pre-COVID I would aim for 10yr/300k ownership, so let's just assume I'll go back to that and shop with that in mind. [I might get lucky and the new norm might have me working from home, in which case I may well have to rethink vehicle strategy.]
Only plain jane commuter of Japanese origin I had was Mazda Millenia, which was so, so when it comes to TCO (for example it costed me more money than my Alfa Romeo 146). I have Sienna which required complete brake overhaul at 42k (same issue like Prado, but not as horrid as Prado), it will require rear shock absorbers at 70k, which none of my Euro cars ever needed at that mileage, and probably again before end of the year front brakes, although BMW is doing all hard work.
Other than that I always had Euro vehicles to commute. None ever refused to start, unlike Mazda and Toyota. I use my BMW for commuting, grocery shopping, daycare runs, skiing, driving baby around to fall a sleep etc. I use Sienna ONLY if I do not have any other option due to number of people or if I am doing family road trip. If I could put 7 people in BMW, I would do. Other than that, it is parked.
By the way my Prado does not even have leather seats, and has one disc audio system which sounds horrible, and as cherry on top, it has manual rear windows. There is nothing luxury about that vehicle.
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So an Alfa would be cheaper for me to drive than a Camry? Cheaper tires, better fuel economy, cheaper to purchase, cheaper parts when (if?) it breaks?
I'm not sure what my cars are running at for the moment, I think between depreciation, repairs and fuel it might be around 20c/m. If an Alfa can beat then clearly I need to change.
I'm not sure what my cars are running at for the moment, I think between depreciation, repairs and fuel it might be around 20c/m. If an Alfa can beat then clearly I need to change.
Originally Posted by supton
So an Alfa would be cheaper for me to drive than a Camry? Cheaper tires, better fuel economy, cheaper to purchase, cheaper parts when (if?) it breaks?
I'm not sure what my cars are running at for the moment, I think between depreciation, repairs and fuel it might be around 20c/m. If an Alfa can beat then clearly I need to change.
I don't think you understand...when it comes to Euro, you purchase an stringent oil approval, and then an approved car to run it.
Your wallet be [censored]
So an Alfa would be cheaper for me to drive than a Camry? Cheaper tires, better fuel economy, cheaper to purchase, cheaper parts when (if?) it breaks?
I'm not sure what my cars are running at for the moment, I think between depreciation, repairs and fuel it might be around 20c/m. If an Alfa can beat then clearly I need to change.
I don't think you understand...when it comes to Euro, you purchase an stringent oil approval, and then an approved car to run it.
Your wallet be [censored]
Originally Posted by supton
So an Alfa would be cheaper for me to drive than a Camry? Cheaper tires, better fuel economy, cheaper to purchase, cheaper parts when (if?) it breaks?
I'm not sure what my cars are running at for the moment, I think between depreciation, repairs and fuel it might be around 20c/m. If an Alfa can beat then clearly I need to change.
Alfa 146? Yeah, it would be cheaper, and DEFINIATELY would have better fuel economy. It would be cheaper to purchase, possibly cheaper parts too (I am not so sure why you think parts are expensive for Euro cars? Aftermarket breaks for my Sienna are only like 5% cheaper than they were for my X5, and X5 was actually breaking good). Now, do you actually know what was Alfa 146?
I am not going to go to fun factor here. I am not sure Camry and fun goes into same page, let alone sentence.
So an Alfa would be cheaper for me to drive than a Camry? Cheaper tires, better fuel economy, cheaper to purchase, cheaper parts when (if?) it breaks?
I'm not sure what my cars are running at for the moment, I think between depreciation, repairs and fuel it might be around 20c/m. If an Alfa can beat then clearly I need to change.
Alfa 146? Yeah, it would be cheaper, and DEFINIATELY would have better fuel economy. It would be cheaper to purchase, possibly cheaper parts too (I am not so sure why you think parts are expensive for Euro cars? Aftermarket breaks for my Sienna are only like 5% cheaper than they were for my X5, and X5 was actually breaking good). Now, do you actually know what was Alfa 146?
I am not going to go to fun factor here. I am not sure Camry and fun goes into same page, let alone sentence.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
So an Alfa would be cheaper for me to drive than a Camry? Cheaper tires, better fuel economy, cheaper to purchase, cheaper parts when (if?) it breaks?
I'm not sure what my cars are running at for the moment, I think between depreciation, repairs and fuel it might be around 20c/m. If an Alfa can beat then clearly I need to change.
Alfa 146? Yeah, it would be cheaper, and DEFINIATELY would have better fuel economy. It would be cheaper to purchase, possibly cheaper parts too (I am not so sure why you think parts are expensive for Euro cars? Aftermarket breaks for my Sienna are only like 5% cheaper than they were for my X5, and X5 was actually breaking good). Now, do you actually know what was Alfa 146?
I am not going to go to fun factor here. I am not sure Camry and fun goes into same page, let alone sentence.
Fun is not required here--if it's fun that's nice, but it's low on my needs.
Are they sold here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_145_and_146
Looks like they haven't been made for 20 years? I see they had 2 door and 4 door variants, looks like FWD with a variety of engine options. Is this correct, 27 mpg? Link Bit low, don't you think?
Looks a bit funky, like it got kicked in the face by a mule. Still, if it's an economical car, we should look at, eh?
Originally Posted by supton
So an Alfa would be cheaper for me to drive than a Camry? Cheaper tires, better fuel economy, cheaper to purchase, cheaper parts when (if?) it breaks?
I'm not sure what my cars are running at for the moment, I think between depreciation, repairs and fuel it might be around 20c/m. If an Alfa can beat then clearly I need to change.
Alfa 146? Yeah, it would be cheaper, and DEFINIATELY would have better fuel economy. It would be cheaper to purchase, possibly cheaper parts too (I am not so sure why you think parts are expensive for Euro cars? Aftermarket breaks for my Sienna are only like 5% cheaper than they were for my X5, and X5 was actually breaking good). Now, do you actually know what was Alfa 146?
I am not going to go to fun factor here. I am not sure Camry and fun goes into same page, let alone sentence.
Fun is not required here--if it's fun that's nice, but it's low on my needs.
Are they sold here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_145_and_146
Looks like they haven't been made for 20 years? I see they had 2 door and 4 door variants, looks like FWD with a variety of engine options. Is this correct, 27 mpg? Link Bit low, don't you think?
Looks a bit funky, like it got kicked in the face by a mule. Still, if it's an economical car, we should look at, eh?
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
So an Alfa would be cheaper for me to drive than a Camry? Cheaper tires, better fuel economy, cheaper to purchase, cheaper parts when (if?) it breaks?
I'm not sure what my cars are running at for the moment, I think between depreciation, repairs and fuel it might be around 20c/m. If an Alfa can beat then clearly I need to change.
Alfa 146? Yeah, it would be cheaper, and DEFINIATELY would have better fuel economy. It would be cheaper to purchase, possibly cheaper parts too (I am not so sure why you think parts are expensive for Euro cars? Aftermarket breaks for my Sienna are only like 5% cheaper than they were for my X5, and X5 was actually breaking good). Now, do you actually know what was Alfa 146?
I am not going to go to fun factor here. I am not sure Camry and fun goes into same page, let alone sentence.
Fun is not required here--if it's fun that's nice, but it's low on my needs.
Are they sold here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_145_and_146
Looks like they haven't been made for 20 years? I see they had 2 door and 4 door variants, looks like FWD with a variety of engine options. Is this correct, 27 mpg? Link Bit low, don't you think?
Looks a bit funky, like it got kicked in the face by a mule. Still, if it's an economical car, we should look at, eh?
Looks bit funky? Yes, bcs. Camry is epitome of design.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
So an Alfa would be cheaper for me to drive than a Camry? Cheaper tires, better fuel economy, cheaper to purchase, cheaper parts when (if?) it breaks?
I'm not sure what my cars are running at for the moment, I think between depreciation, repairs and fuel it might be around 20c/m. If an Alfa can beat then clearly I need to change.
Alfa 146? Yeah, it would be cheaper, and DEFINIATELY would have better fuel economy. It would be cheaper to purchase, possibly cheaper parts too (I am not so sure why you think parts are expensive for Euro cars? Aftermarket breaks for my Sienna are only like 5% cheaper than they were for my X5, and X5 was actually breaking good). Now, do you actually know what was Alfa 146?
I am not going to go to fun factor here. I am not sure Camry and fun goes into same page, let alone sentence.
Fun is not required here--if it's fun that's nice, but it's low on my needs.
Are they sold here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_145_and_146
Looks like they haven't been made for 20 years? I see they had 2 door and 4 door variants, looks like FWD with a variety of engine options. Is this correct, 27 mpg? Link Bit low, don't you think?
Looks a bit funky, like it got kicked in the face by a mule. Still, if it's an economical car, we should look at, eh?
Looks bit funky? Yes, bcs. Camry is epitome of design.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
Not quite sure what you are saying? Pretty sure most people view water pumps as a red flag, period. "Many" here won't touch a Ford 3.5 non-EB because of its failure mode, and when the RAV4 had the 3.5 that failure mode was a given reason to avoid that model.
I know I bought my Tundra based on its nameplate, and had I known of its long list of failure modes I would have skipped it, and gotten something more reliable. My loss, I know, for not doing enough research up front.
*
Hey, I think I asked in the past about TCO. Is it a myth that Euro cars have a higher TCO? Some of us appliance drivers place a higher value on TCO than smiles per mile.
Post thread whether 3.5 V6 RAV4 vehicle to avoid and let's see what happens.
I considered one back in 2014 and saw so many transmission and water pump issues in threads on this and other forums that I avoided that model for exactly that reason, even though I found a nice, clean one. Sadly, I ended up going with a Jeep Grand, instead, lol! That was its own bag of snakes.
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
Not quite sure what you are saying? Pretty sure most people view water pumps as a red flag, period. "Many" here won't touch a Ford 3.5 non-EB because of its failure mode, and when the RAV4 had the 3.5 that failure mode was a given reason to avoid that model.
I know I bought my Tundra based on its nameplate, and had I known of its long list of failure modes I would have skipped it, and gotten something more reliable. My loss, I know, for not doing enough research up front.
*
Hey, I think I asked in the past about TCO. Is it a myth that Euro cars have a higher TCO? Some of us appliance drivers place a higher value on TCO than smiles per mile.
Post thread whether 3.5 V6 RAV4 vehicle to avoid and let's see what happens.
I considered one back in 2014 and saw so many transmission and water pump issues in threads on this and other forums that I avoided that model for exactly that reason, even though I found a nice, clean one. Sadly, I ended up going with a Jeep Grand, instead, lol! That was its own bag of snakes.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Looks bit funky? Yes, bcs. Camry is epitome of design.
Have me there--I consider our '11 Camry one of the ugliest cars out there.
But I digress.
This thread is about Euro cars and myths, and one of the myths in my head is that they cost more over the longer run. So, I'm sincerely asking, please explain why that is a myth, and why my next car should be Euro.
I used to own a VW but despite averaging 46mp over >300k I didn't feel it saved me money over a boring 30mpg econobox. But maybe difference wasn't that different? Maybe I let myself be swayed by the Asian arguments? Dunno. Make the case for why I should go Euro next time, about how I'll save money and time.
Looks bit funky? Yes, bcs. Camry is epitome of design.
Have me there--I consider our '11 Camry one of the ugliest cars out there.
But I digress.
This thread is about Euro cars and myths, and one of the myths in my head is that they cost more over the longer run. So, I'm sincerely asking, please explain why that is a myth, and why my next car should be Euro.
I used to own a VW but despite averaging 46mp over >300k I didn't feel it saved me money over a boring 30mpg econobox. But maybe difference wasn't that different? Maybe I let myself be swayed by the Asian arguments? Dunno. Make the case for why I should go Euro next time, about how I'll save money and time.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Looks bit funky? Yes, bcs. Camry is epitome of design.
Have me there--I consider our '11 Camry one of the ugliest cars out there.
But I digress.
This thread is about Euro cars and myths, and one of the myths in my head is that they cost more over the longer run. So, I'm sincerely asking, please explain why that is a myth, and why my next car should be Euro.
I used to own a VW but despite averaging 46mp over >300k I didn't feel it saved me money over a boring 30mpg econobox. But maybe difference wasn't that different? Maybe I let myself be swayed by the Asian arguments? Dunno. Make the case for why I should go Euro next time, about how I'll save money and time.
To be fair, Euro is a wide range of vehicles, from a VW Jetta to a Range Rover or BMW X6. The Jetta would likely be cheaper to own while a luxury vehicle like the X6 will be costly. You really need to do research on what is reliable in order to make an informed decision these days. My '09 BMW 328i with the N/A inline-six is basically a German Camry, and known to be fairly reliable. It's more powerful brother the 335i is known to be a maintenance hog with the turbo I-6.
For reliable Euros, I would say VW has stepped up their reliability on the more entry level cars, and I say this as someone who used to hate VW with a bad experience from a MK4 Jetta. My sister owns a 2013 2.5L Jetta which has been rock solid (she is known as the car destroyer for a reason) and have several friends with the same body style Jetta in 2.5L manual, and 1.8T auto configurations. All of them have just needed basic maintenance like brakes, oil changes, etc. My sister regularly drives her 2.5L Jetta from Maryland to CT for holidays and family gatherings, and she averages 30-32 mpg with the I-5 and a heavy foot. Another advantage is the rust proofing on German cars. Her Jetta still looks new with close to 150k miles. Her previous 2005 Civic was developing rust by 110k and by 200k it was pretty swiss cheese looking underneath.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Looks bit funky? Yes, bcs. Camry is epitome of design.
Have me there--I consider our '11 Camry one of the ugliest cars out there.
But I digress.
This thread is about Euro cars and myths, and one of the myths in my head is that they cost more over the longer run. So, I'm sincerely asking, please explain why that is a myth, and why my next car should be Euro.
I used to own a VW but despite averaging 46mp over >300k I didn't feel it saved me money over a boring 30mpg econobox. But maybe difference wasn't that different? Maybe I let myself be swayed by the Asian arguments? Dunno. Make the case for why I should go Euro next time, about how I'll save money and time.
To be fair, Euro is a wide range of vehicles, from a VW Jetta to a Range Rover or BMW X6. The Jetta would likely be cheaper to own while a luxury vehicle like the X6 will be costly. You really need to do research on what is reliable in order to make an informed decision these days. My '09 BMW 328i with the N/A inline-six is basically a German Camry, and known to be fairly reliable. It's more powerful brother the 335i is known to be a maintenance hog with the turbo I-6.
For reliable Euros, I would say VW has stepped up their reliability on the more entry level cars, and I say this as someone who used to hate VW with a bad experience from a MK4 Jetta. My sister owns a 2013 2.5L Jetta which has been rock solid (she is known as the car destroyer for a reason) and have several friends with the same body style Jetta in 2.5L manual, and 1.8T auto configurations. All of them have just needed basic maintenance like brakes, oil changes, etc. My sister regularly drives her 2.5L Jetta from Maryland to CT for holidays and family gatherings, and she averages 30-32 mpg with the I-5 and a heavy foot. Another advantage is the rust proofing on German cars. Her Jetta still looks new with close to 150k miles. Her previous 2005 Civic was developing rust by 110k and by 200k it was pretty swiss cheese looking underneath.
I've wondered about the VW I5. Low mpg but timing chain.
I had a MkIV and thought it fine. After 300k I couldn't justify putting more money into it, but I did like it. Maybe if I got a gasser I could work on it myself? That was what really bothered me about my diesel--although that TDi remains about the only car I have "loved". But driving 2-3 hours each way to get service was getting old, and I started fearing who would repair it if it ever needed a tow.
I figure, my fleet is not young. At some point they will need replacing. So I need to start figuring out what to replace with. The wife will want something green, 4 doors, stickshift, >30mpg. Me, I'm not sure I'm even that picky anymore. Just keep it to a few grand and something simple that I keep going, and I'll be content.
328i? I'll have to look those up.
I had a MkIV and thought it fine. After 300k I couldn't justify putting more money into it, but I did like it. Maybe if I got a gasser I could work on it myself? That was what really bothered me about my diesel--although that TDi remains about the only car I have "loved". But driving 2-3 hours each way to get service was getting old, and I started fearing who would repair it if it ever needed a tow.
I figure, my fleet is not young. At some point they will need replacing. So I need to start figuring out what to replace with. The wife will want something green, 4 doors, stickshift, >30mpg. Me, I'm not sure I'm even that picky anymore. Just keep it to a few grand and something simple that I keep going, and I'll be content.
328i? I'll have to look those up.
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