Does w30 provide more longevity over w20??

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tpattgeek

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Long story short, my Civic says to use 5w-20 in the manual and has no mention of ANYTHING else. A lot of other Civic guys say they use 5w30 because it "sounds better" and provides similar protection at operating temp. I understand that, but wasn't there a reason behind the move to w20? They say it was "CAFE influenced". Does that mean Honda is recommending a weight for their cars when something else may provide better protection all the way up to 300k miles and beyond? (i.e. w30) I've used 5-20 for 45k miles and just switched to 0-20 for the cold start protection and have actually noticed a great improvement in accelerator response and "jerkiness" when the engine is cold. Please help me understand this more.

BTW, it gets ~30 F in the winter and ~100 in the summer. I know climate doesn't play a huge part and you should go by what your manual says, but how do you know that's what's "best"? One fool posted this: http://www.royalpurple.com.au/article_im..._supplement.php and said w30's and below are worthless because of this particular test. He went on to say higher weights are better because they're more "clingy". We all know lower weights are not optimal for high-revving vehicles, but that's not what I'm worried about. I want my engine to last forever dammit!
 
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"as thin as possible, as thick as necessary"

Try to follow this rule.

Basically, Xw-20 will provide sufficient protection for your Civic and will easily get you to 300k miles. Higher grades will just rob you of performance and fuel economy.
 
Quick point: The w belongs on the first number, not the second number. W means "winter."

E.g. 5w-20 is 5w ... 20


Yes, CAFE plays some role in the selection of lubricants. But engines are also designed accordingly. Maybe there is an option that will provide better protection, but as you suggested, most of us don't have a way to figure out what that would be; since we don't have the knowledge that the engineers do, the best we can do is a LOT of trial-and-error and rigorous testing.

As for that link, that article has been intellectually lynched repeatedly. Apparently the magazine even published a retraction. The test is invalid and the results are meaningless. I don't think you have to worry about it.
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Quick point: The w belongs on the first number, not the second number. W means "winter."

E.g. 5w-20 is 5w ... 20


Yes, CAFE plays some role in the selection of lubricants. But engines are also designed accordingly. Maybe there is an option that will provide better protection, but as you suggested, most of us don't have a way to figure out what that would be; since we don't have the knowledge that the engineers do, the best we can do is a LOT of trial-and-error and rigorous testing.

As for that link, that article has been intellectually lynched repeatedly. Apparently the magazine even published a retraction. The test is invalid and the results are meaningless. I don't think you have to worry about it.
wink.gif



Sorry for the confusion, but I do w20, w30, etc. just to show I'm referencing the 2nd number versus the first number without typing 2 extra characters
smile.gif
If it bothers some people, I'll remember to type the whole thing from now on.

BTW, you were saying w means "winter" just as a pnuemonic deivce, right?
 
I tried 5W30 and the mileage DROPPED to 30-32mpg. Went back to 5W20 and it's back to 40-42mpg.

These engines are very sensitive.
 
No the W actually stands for Winter... what the oils viscosity is at - whatever the temp is during testing.
 
Originally Posted By: shrooms
I tried 5W30 and the mileage DROPPED to 30-32mpg. Went back to 5W20 and it's back to 40-42mpg.

These engines are very sensitive.


I currently have 5w30 in my 07 Civic EX (up from a 20 weight) and i'm still getting the same 33ish MPG ave i was getting with 5w-20. (city driving)

I was planning to run the 5w30 currently in the civic to 8k and then sample but for the sake of getting accurate numbers, i'll take a sample at the same 6,800 miles at which i sampled the 5w-20 so then we can compare the numbers... Should post the results by the end of this week.
 
I agree.

As thin as possible for startup while maintaining the viscosity needed at running temps.

Going with higher weight oil at running temps is guess work at best since none of us have controlled environment to run tests.

And if you go too thick, you may be straining the oil pump and starving your engine to get thick oil through smaller passages designed for thinner oil.

This chart has phenomenal at visually representing the difference in oil at startup and how to progress to running temps:

http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

Good the name and weight of your oil and then "MSDS" a you can plug in the actual #s for a brand/weight oil. Then map it out. You'd be surprised at the difference between brands for the same weight oil as well as surprised at a 5w-20 having lower viscosity at startup vs. a 0w-40 for example. The "w" number is the viscosity range of the oil at 40c BUT it is linked to the -XX number as well. A 5w-20 and a 5w-40 do not have the same range of startup viscosities. (and again, between brands they differ again)

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
"as thin as possible, as thick as necessary"

Try to follow this rule.

Basically, Xw-20 will provide sufficient protection for your Civic and will easily get you to 300k miles. Higher grades will just rob you of performance and fuel economy.
 
In your climate it won't matter, the engine will outlast the rest of that car. It's just theory, and if you like the 30 weight better go nuts.
 
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Originally Posted By: shrooms
I tried 5W30 and the mileage DROPPED to 30-32mpg. Went back to 5W20 and it's back to 40-42mpg.

These engines are very sensitive.


Something else changed. No way going to a w30 over w20 gave you >25% fuel mileage. Were you actually eating shrooms when you did this math. Just kidding but i think something else was involved there.
 
Throttle position changed.
wink.gif


Originally Posted By: jstutz
Originally Posted By: shrooms
I tried 5W30 and the mileage DROPPED to 30-32mpg. Went back to 5W20 and it's back to 40-42mpg.

These engines are very sensitive.


Something else changed. No way going to a w30 over w20 gave you >25% fuel mileage. Were you actually eating shrooms when you did this math. Just kidding but i think something else was involved there.
 
Hi.

To answers your original question, a higher viscosity oil will always last longer than a lower viscosity oil. It's simple. Over time, a thicker oil will shear just as a thinner oil will shear. But given equal time-in-use, and equal conditions, the higher viscosity oil will always have a higher viscosity at the end.

Of course, oil companies will always tell you about the chemistry of their products. Especially their XW-20 products. Why is there so much more marketing on these oils over their higher viscosity siblings? "Advanced fuel economy"..."meets OEM fuel requirements"...etc. Yes, it provides higher fuel economy...in a lab under controlled conditions. And of course, anything that matches whatever the manual says meets OEM requirements right?

The reason why OEM requirements have gotten to lower viscosity over the years is primarily due to stricter federal regulations that give manufacturers more of a break. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that the components subject to wear will "wear" faster if they are using lower viscosity lubricants.

Everything is designed within a operational limit. A Civic is not designed for race use, off road use, towing use, etc. And thus the strain (in comparison to those conditions) is comparatively lower. Same thing with whatever is being recommended with a XW-20. If a higher viscosity oil will not provide any extra benefit, then why use it? Might as well get some extra bucks by specifying a "advanced fuel economy" oil to provide "fuel economy." It is VERY minuscule. You will not notice a significant difference in real-world driving.

You can consult any chemist or chemical engineer for the oil companies or the car companies. They will always mask their answer to avoid denigration of their products, but the truth is there and its pretty much common sense.

Pro-lower viscosity oil people like to say "oh Formula 1 cars use like 10W oil." Well Formula 1 cars are racing cars. And any motorsports engineer will tell you that the perfect race vehicle will cross the finish line first then break down immediately thereafter. We want to win. A higher viscosity, a higher DRAG, lubricant is detrimental to that. In a land where engines rev to the stratosphere, must weigh the same, must have the same body design, and where the budget to maintain such a racing program is a multi-million dollar affair, every little horsepower counts.

In other forms of racing, such as the 24 Hours of Le Mans, reliability takes the front runner. I guarantee you won't see a low viscosity oil running around those paddocks.

It's just something to think about right? Every car is designed within an operational limit. When operational conditions are under that limit, it's safe to say that a lubricant designed to handle that lower operational limit will handle the job quite well.

Your Civic is designed to run with that running in it. You can use it, and to fulfill OEM requirements, you should. But running a higher viscosity oil won't destroy it. Don't confuse "thickness" with "viscosity." Viscosity is related to drag. Some people make the mistake of associating "oil thickness" with film thickness. It's not the same. There is a reason why older engines, with wider tolerances between the parts (more "wear") burn less oil, or leak slower with a higher viscosity oil. The hydrodynamic forces and tension are keeping the oil from moving away from the parts.

Yep. Sorry maybe a bit more of an answer than you may want to know, but I want to be as unbiased and informative as possible.
 
5-20s don't shear like 5-30s.
5-20s are already 'there' and have tough specs to be made/produced.
I would note the cop cars that are abused for many miles and thrive on 5-20.
 
Originally Posted By: tpattgeek
Long story short, my Civic says to use 5w-20 in the manual and has no mention of ANYTHING else. A lot of other Civic guys say they use 5w30 because it "sounds better" and provides similar protection at operating temp. I understand that, but wasn't there a reason behind the move to w20? They say it was "CAFE influenced". Does that mean Honda is recommending a weight for their cars when something else may provide better protection all the way up to 300k miles and beyond? (i.e. w30) I've used 5-20 for 45k miles and just switched to 0-20 for the cold start protection and have actually noticed a great improvement in accelerator response and "jerkiness" when the engine is cold. Please help me understand this more.

BTW, it gets ~30 F in the winter and ~100 in the summer. I know climate doesn't play a huge part and you should go by what your manual says, but how do you know that's what's "best"? One fool posted this: http://www.royalpurple.com.au/article_im..._supplement.php and said w30's and below are worthless because of this particular test. He went on to say higher weights are better because they're more "clingy". We all know lower weights are not optimal for high-revving vehicles, but that's not what I'm worried about. I want my engine to last forever dammit!

Realistically, will you use this engine to beyond 500k miles? I'd be more worried about the transmission and just use the spec'd oil and call it a day for the engine, especially a Honda engine.
 
Volvo did a study of 5W-20 vs 5w30 oils via UOAs and found elevated levels of iron in the thinner oils. The elevated iron content was not enough to be a major concern for 5W-20, but it did raise the question of "How thin can we go?"
 
I'd be interested in seeing which brands were included in that study? One brand? Multiple? I didn't know 20's displayed more wear in Volvo's than others...
 
Originally Posted By: jstutz
Originally Posted By: shrooms
I tried 5W30 and the mileage DROPPED to 30-32mpg. Went back to 5W20 and it's back to 40-42mpg.

These engines are very sensitive.


Something else changed. No way going to a w30 over w20 gave you >25% fuel mileage. Were you actually eating shrooms when you did this math. Just kidding but i think something else was involved there.

\
Nope, nothing. I'm telling you. Maybe it's just MY car, but that's what happened. It HATES anything above 20wt. Matter of fact, it looks like I'm gaining another 1mpg with PYB! This is it's first fill with PYB, so I have to wait to it's next OCI to really see any difference.
 
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