Do engine oil additives actually work? (aftermarket ones)

[blingo]

You can get a better idea by finding the virgin FP for the lube and comparing it to what they are showing as I think Blackstone just "wings it". If this is the AMSOIL Marine 10w-40, the FP is 464F, so it has dropped ~80F, which is reasonably significant.

Using a visc calc, let's use a visc for gasoline of 0.550cSt. The visc for your 10w-40 virgin was 14.1cSt:

Mixing viscosities | Widman International SRL

www.widman.biz

I end up with 89% 14.1cSt, 11% 0.550cSt to get to where your viscosity ended up so around 10-11% fuel dilution.

What are we supposed to arrive at in the end, with such numbers? The Giulia with also an Amsoil (0W-40) and also a drop in Blackstone-flashpoint around 80°F would also have to have run on these 10-11% fuel dilution (89% of 14.8 cSt when downmixed to 10 cSt).



I didn't look up the 10W-40, but the 0W-40 isn't expected to be low on VII and from just questioning Blackstone's flashpoints in general I think the approach would obviously follow too much of a bias and we're making something else of it for the Yamahas and Alfas out there eventually, aren't we?

 

[OVERKILL]

What are we supposed to arrive at in the end, with such numbers? The Giulia with also an Amsoil (0W-40) and also a drop in Blackstone-flashpoint around 80°F would also have to have run on these 10-11% fuel dilution (89% of 14.8 cSt when downmixed to 10 cSt).



I didn't look up the 10W-40, but the 0W-40 isn't expected to be low on VII and from just questioning Blackstone's flashpoints in general I think the approach would obviously follow too much of a bias and we're making something else of it for the Yamahas and Alfas out there eventually, aren't we?

It gives you a "better" idea of fuel dilution than Blackstone's inference method.

Now, with oils with a larger spread, like a 0w-40, you have to account for SOME mechanical shear taking place, however, fuel has a much greater impact, that's why paying attention to FP is important, relative to virgin. If you don't see much of a hit to flash point but you've got significant viscosity loss, odds are it is more mechanical shear. On the other hand, if you have a pretty big hit to the flashpoint, it points to more fuel and less shear. We were told by a formulator a few years ago now that the biggest contributor to viscosity loss is fuel and a lot of what gets attributed to shear in UOA's is actually due to fuel.

An example from my old M5, since this was done at Toromont that used GC:

M1 0w-40 had a virgin visc of 13.8cP. Using the visc calculator we are discussing and 5% fuel, I end up at 11.55cSt. The UOA shows 11.24cSt, extremely close! And this is an engine with a massive double-roller timing chain and dual VANOS.

 

[Popsy]

I don't think we can estimate the fuel % by the viscosity drop as simply, as fuel would affect the integrity of the VII or something...someone with more knowledge of the chemical effect, please correct me.

 

[OVERKILL]

I don't think we can estimate the fuel % by the viscosity drop as simply, as fuel would affect the integrity of the VII or something...someone with more knowledge of the chemical effect, please correct me.

I suspect VII's are more tolerant of fuel than assumed given that fuel dilution is a fact of life with most engines so every engine oil is going to experience some level of fuel dilution.

But as I noted, you want to look at both viscosity loss as well as reduction in flashpoint when using a lab such as Blackstone that simply infers fuel dilution rather than measuring it. A lab that uses GC on the other hand will give you an accurate figure.

 

[blingo]

Unless fuel meant FAME or such I'd already be using gasoline in a cutter opening the valve cover when I actually expected fuel dilution to be like 10%.
A drop of 100K in flashpoint: https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/75680

 

[Popsy]

Interesting read, thanks.

 

[TiGeo]

Interesting - I just did the numbers for my last oil out. Virgin analysis I ran on the Liquimoly Molygen at 13.1, 0.8% fuel per BS UOA so calc'd at 12.55. UOA was 11.2 with a flashpoint at 390 and VOA flashpoint of 440.

 

[ollie]

Liquimoly Molygen is some really good oil!! All their performance lubricants are right up there with Motul. I personally use the M0S2 liquified molybdenum disulfide additive to my regular synthetic oil change after a flush.

 

[TiGeo]

Liquimoly Molygen is some really good oil!! All their performance lubricants are right up there with Motul. I personally use the M0S2 liquified molybdenum disulfide additive to my regular synthetic oil change after a flush.

Prepare for immanent destruction of this thread in 3....2....1....hahahaahaha

 

[ollie]

OOPS!! Oh well I can't help what I like.

 

[Popsy]

I like your Motul avatar.

 

[ollie]

Thank you. I do like my Motul!!

 

[OVERKILL]

Unless fuel meant FAME or such I'd already be using gasoline in a cutter opening the valve cover when I actually expected fuel dilution to be like 10%.
A drop of 100K in flashpoint: https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/75680

Nice article!

So, oil A (MO-A)
Virgin:
100C: 11.5cSt
Flash: 224.5c/436F

5% diluted by weight:
100C: 8cSt
Flash: 144C/291F

Interestingly, this doesn't align viscosity-wise when using the visc calc, 5% gives me 9.77cSt and it takes 10% to get it down close to that 8cSt figure.

Now, gasoline weighs 0.71kg/L while engine oil is 0.87kg/L and they've done dilution based on weight, not volume, I wonder how GC's percentage is figured? I would assume by volume?

If we are doing it by volume and have 5L of total product:
4.75L oil
0.25L gasoline

If we are doing it by weight and have 5L of total product:
4.35kg of oil for 5L

Which would yield:
4.1325kg of oil at 95% by weight; 4.75L
0.2175kg of oil for 5% by weight; 0.25L
0.2175kg of gas for 5% by weight; 0.31L

This yields a total volume of 5.06L, 6.1% fuel.

Not a big difference but does show the impact of the different methodologies.

Per my M5 UOA, this is why it's typically a good idea to use a lab that does GC if you are really concerned about fuel dilution. I expect the lightest fractions flash off (not covered in that article) and so you end up with a thin dilutant that's not as volatile as gasoline but still has a significant effect on viscosity and lowering flash point.

 

[Popsy]

Thank you. I do like my Motul!!

Too bad it's grossly overpriced outside of its origin country :/

 

[OilReport99]

Too bad it's grossly overpriced outside if its origin country :/

It’s not. That’s the price the consumers set outside its origin country.
It is overhyped though.

 

[ollie]

Too bad it's grossly overpriced outside of its origin country :/

It’s not. That’s the price the consumers set outside its origin country.
It is overhyped though.

You get what you pay for. And in reality it costs no more than any other brand of comparable lubricant. Any double ester oil or high boiling point brake fluid is going to cost more no matter what the brand.

 

[DallasTexas]

On Diesel engines I have used Kreen to free rings, varnish and sludge with very good results and in the tank to get rid of injector knock in the morning.

 

[Popsy]

You get what you pay for. And in reality it costs no more than any other brand of comparable lubricant. Any double ester oil or high boiling point brake fluid is going to cost more no matter what the brand.

It's more...when you're used to see Motul products (granted, not all of them, not the 300V line except for motorcycles) in supermarkets at relatively competitive prices compared to Shell or Total, and then you see how it's marketed in North America (and maybe elsewhere), you wonder!
But I'm not here to complain about their marketing (clearly they have to capitalize on their best products and sell it as high end to make a difference, I get that), I just don't feel "on phase" with some discussions about Motul because I'd have a hard time getting them at "US price" when I'm used to get them at "regular price"

Same comment applies to Total products, I see some stores trying to sell it as fancy stuff. But it's good to have choices, many of these products have their value and I'm glad to be able to find them in Canada or US.

Edit: sorry for the OT /

 

[ollie]

I hear you there!! I started using Motul products before marketing them was a thing. Motul is pretty much the standard lubricant all the motorcycle shops carry. And it helps to have Motul USA locally here in Cypress CA.

I'm pretty sure I am like most anyone who has a few incidents that prove the products worth. In the off road and racing community lubrication failures are common with high temps or loss of oil. This is what separates the high end products from the cheap ones.

 

[TiGeo]

The only Motul product I've used is their racing brake fluid. Never tried their oil...maybe I'll give it a whirl at some point.