Castrol Edge 0W-40 lost LL-01?

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
This might also explain why Euro L and ESP 5w30 have LL04, but Euro LX and ESP 0w30 do not. Maybe they aren't approving 0w's anymore?


Ravenol SSL 0w-40 still has it
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It's a very old spec at this point, what modern BMW vehicles still call for it? Mobil doesn't have a single flagship (Mobil 1) product that carries it and has now relegated it to being held by one of its 2nd tier ones, Mobil Super Synthetic. I believe Garak noted that a bulk 5w-40 they sold in Canada never lost LL-01 when it slipped out of the Mobil 1 product line.

BMW still provides TPT 5W30 LL01. Actually I bought it in BMW dealership in January.
All modern BMW vehicles are still having LL01 and LL04 in manual.
As for Ravenol, I high doubt Ravenol changes formulations as often as others.
Right now I am leaning on a side of being updated.


New or old stock?

Perhaps throw the part # in realoem.com to see if it has been discontinued?

Nope, local dealership here still gets it on regular basis.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
This is the response I got from Castrol North America:
Quote
OEM approvals are normally covered for a period of time and then they expire requiring renewal. It was a business decision to not continue the BMW LongLife LL-01 approval in the 0W-40 grade. BMW LL-01 approval is available in the Castrol EDGE 5W-40 grade .

So yeah, they chose not to renew, but we still don't know why. Was it because they thought this spec is no longer relevant, or was it because something has diametrically changed in the LL-01 spec, making the approval more difficult to obtain?


I have a hard time picturing LL-01 being more demanding than A40 or the MB specs
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If you trust these latest Lubrizol performance charts, it appears that the new LL-01 (2018) does in fact outperform A40 spec in some areas...

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
 
Why would Castrol and Shell (pennzoil) drop the LL01 rating from their 0w40 formulas only to put it back on the 5W40 formulas? Is it because they don't want to have to certify this oil against LL01 specifications ($$$)

Here in Ontario we can't buy the 0w40 stuff anymore, at least at canadian tire. We can, however, get 3 different 5W40 oils with the LL01 spec on it: Castrol Edge, Pennzoil Platinum, and Motomaster (shell).

Why would Canadian tire stop carrying this oil, in that case? Perhaps not enough demand from consumers?


I am concerned with 5w40 over 0W40 for the few days per year in Ontario where we have temps down to -25.
 
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Originally Posted by Nate_L
I am concerned with 5w40 over 0W40 for the few days per year in Ontario where we have temps down to -25.

There is no concern with that.
 
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
I thought it was determined the 0w stuff does not qualify anymore, only the 5w. It was a change BMW made.

So Ravenol didn't get the memo?
smile.gif


https://www.ravenolamerica.com/motor-oil/0w-40-motor-oil-ravenol-low-friction-oil-ssl/

Depends of two things:
1. Whether approval expired or not.
2. Did they change composition if approval is valid.

But it is indicative that 5W oils are getting LL01 approvals, 0W are not.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Depends of two things:
1. Whether approval expired or not.
2. Did they change composition if approval is valid.

But it is indicative that 5W oils are getting LL01 approvals, 0W are not.

I guess it's also possible that those 0W-40 oils that still indicate LL01 approval have been approved for the old LL-01 spec and not for the new LL01 spec that was released recently. For example, this Motul X-max 0W-40 specifically indicates "BMW LL-01 span>"
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Nate_L
I am concerned with 5w40 over 0W40 for the few days per year in Ontario where we have temps down to -25.

There is no concern with that.


Interesting you would say that. I just looked through a few different oils, for ASTM D5293 Cranking Viscosity:
Castrol Edge 0W40 - 5800cP at -35 degC
and 5W40 - 6600cP at -30 degC
PP Euro 0w40 - 5960cP at -35 degC
and 5W40 - 6300cP at -30 degC

PP euro 5w30 is 4000cP at -30 degC

Why do they test at a different temperature? I guess it indicates that if you expect -35 temps you should use the 0w40. But if you only expect -30 temps you should use the 5w40. It seems like I want to get the -40wt oil that has the lowest CCS Viscosity, right?
 
Originally Posted by Nate_L
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Nate_L
I am concerned with 5w40 over 0W40 for the few days per year in Ontario where we have temps down to -25.

There is no concern with that.


Interesting you would say that. I just looked through a few different oils, for ASTM D5293 Cranking Viscosity:
Castrol Edge 0W40 - 5800cP at -35 degC
and 5W40 - 6600cP at -30 degC
PP Euro 0w40 - 5960cP at -35 degC
and 5W40 - 6300cP at -30 degC

PP euro 5w30 is 4000cP at -30 degC

Why do they test at a different temperature?

ASTM cranking viscosity test for 0W oils is done at -35C. For 5W oils it's at -30C.
 
Originally Posted by Nate_L
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Nate_L
I am concerned with 5w40 over 0W40 for the few days per year in Ontario where we have temps down to -25.

There is no concern with that.


Interesting you would say that. I just looked through a few different oils, for ASTM D5293 Cranking Viscosity:
Castrol Edge 0W40 - 5800cP at -35 degC
and 5W40 - 6600cP at -30 degC
PP Euro 0w40 - 5960cP at -35 degC
and 5W40 - 6300cP at -30 degC

PP euro 5w30 is 4000cP at -30 degC

Why do they test at a different temperature? I guess it indicates that if you expect -35 temps you should use the 0w40. But if you only expect -30 temps you should use the 5w40. It seems like I want to get the -40wt oil that has the lowest CCS Viscosity, right?

5W40 will perform fine in Ontario. ASTM test is -35 for 0W and -30 for 5W (as QP stated). That does not mean 5W cannot perform in lower temperatures. I started vehicle with 5W40 oil here in CO at -37, and in Bosnia using 10W40 at -42.
 
BMW changed the performance-test engine from N52 to N20 several years ago, and that's also when Mobil 1 0W-40 and Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 lost their LL-01 approvals. Note that they still use the N42 Valvetronic engine for radionuclide technique (RNT) wear test. This is according to the Afton Specification Handbook, but the below communication with Mobil 1 tech support also mentions the change (from N52) to N20.

Mobil 1 tech support:

"Yes, we did recently introduce a new formulation, along with a new product name to differentiate the two. One assumes FS is just short for Full Synthetic. Performance of the new recipe is very comparable to the outgoing product.

At the same time, BMW had modified the testing requirement for the LL-01 spec - adding of a more severe N20 2liter turbo test that, apparently, we do not yet meet."


Now, the Mobil 1 tech support didn't know what FS standed for (most of us think full-SAPS), and it's not clear whether they meant the FS formulation didn't meet LL-01 or wasn't tested in the N20 engine. I am guessing it's the latter.

These oils should be reformulated to API SP (mixed calcium and magnesium detergent) soon, and it will be interesting to see if they will regain LL-01 at that point. Nevertheless, I don't think they will.

I don't think BMW got rid of 0W-40 in LL-01. I think 0W-40 is still there but only a few blenders certify for it. 0W-40 oils certainly use higher-quality base oils than 5W-40 oils, and if they don't have the OEM spec, it's because of either the additive package needing to be updated or they don't bother to have it tested for that OEM spec.

[Linked Image from lh3.googleusercontent.com]


The above communication with BMW suggests that if you use a generic LL-01-approved additive package from major additive companies, the oil doesn't actually need to be tested in an engine, assuming that it meets the Noack limit etc. This would obviously be a very cheap way of getting an LL-01 approval. However, major oil blenders like Mobil 1 and Castrol do not use generic additive packages but make their own, which allows superior performance over generic additive packages. This means Mobil 1 and Castrol need to do the costly N20 engine performance and N42 RNT engine-wear test, and they may simply not bother with it given that LL-01 was superseded by LL-04 in 2004 and BMW maintains and requires the LL-01 spec only for countries where there is high-sulfur gasoline, which the US is no longer one of them. Therefore, there is probably not much economic benefit for Mobil 1 and Castrol to get the LL-01 approval.

So, Nate_L, by all means use the Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 A3/B4 or Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 in your older BMW with no reservations in Ontario, where your engine would be happy with these low-MRV and low-CCS PAO-containing SAE 0W-XX oils.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
BMW changed the performance-test engine from N52 to N20 several years ago, and that's also when Mobil 1 0W-40 and Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 lost their LL-01 approvals. Note that they still use the N42 Valvetronic engine for radionuclide technique (RNT) wear test. This is according to the Afton Specification Handbook, but the below communication with Mobil 1 tech support also mentions the change (from N52) to N20.

Mobil 1 tech support:

"Yes, we did recently introduce a new formulation, along with a new product name to differentiate the two. One assumes FS is just short for Full Synthetic. Performance of the new recipe is very comparable to the outgoing product.

At the same time, BMW had modified the testing requirement for the LL-01 spec - adding of a more severe N20 2liter turbo test that, apparently, we do not yet meet."


Now, the Mobil 1 tech support didn't know what FS standed for (most of us think full-SAPS), and it's not clear whether they meant the FS formulation didn't meet LL-01 or wasn't tested in the N20 engine. I am guessing it's the latter.

These oils should be reformulated to API SP (mixed calcium and magnesium detergent) soon, and it will be interesting to see if they will regain LL-01 at that point. Nevertheless, I don't think they will.

I don't think BMW got rid of 0W-40 in LL-01. I think 0W-40 is still there but only a few blenders certify for it. 0W-40 oils certainly use higher-quality base oils than 5W-40 oils, and if they don't have the OEM spec, it's because of either the additive package needing to be updated or they don't bother to have it tested for that OEM spec.

[Linked Image from lh3.googleusercontent.com]


The above communication with BMW suggests that if you use a generic LL-01-approved additive package from major additive companies, the oil doesn't actually need to be tested in an engine, assuming that it meets the Noack limit etc. This would obviously be a very cheap way of getting an LL-01 approval. However, major oil blenders like Mobil 1 and Castrol do not use generic additive packages but make their own, which allows superior performance over generic additive packages. This means Mobil 1 and Castrol need to do the costly N20 engine performance and N42 RNT engine-wear test, and they may simply not bother with it given that LL-01 was superseded by LL-04 in 2004 and BMW maintains and requires the LL-01 spec only for countries where there is high-sulfur gasoline, which the US is no longer one of them. Therefore, there is probably not much economic benefit for Mobil 1 and Castrol to get the LL-01 approval.

So, Nate_L, by all means use the Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 A3/B4 or Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 in your older BMW with no reservations in Ontario, where your engine would be happy with these low-MRV and low-CCS PAO-containing SAE 0W-XX oils.

2018 LL01 update involves B generation of engines. N generation testing is present since they are on the market, which is 2011. They are phased out completely or at the end of phasing out process. Since 2016 B generation modular engines are finding its way into BMW models, and with that LL01 was updated. That does not mean many tests are not done using older engines but current LL01 is adjusted to B generation of engines.
Also, BMW NA still requires LL01 in the US regardless of moving from HSG to ULSG in 2017. New BMW models are also recommended for LL01 not LL04. LL04 is allowed in gasoline engines in most EU countries (several exceptions) and some outside EU (Norway and Switzerland primarily).
Take into consideration that Mobil1 dropped LL04 from some oils.
 
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Also, LL04 is not replacement for LL01. LL04 was strictly diesel specification when introduced in 2004. It was not designed to supersede LL01. ULSG in Europe was introduced in 2009, and that is when LL04 was also updated to be used in gasoline engines.
 
There are so many N51 and N52 engines in service I wish BMW would get a bit more granular and keep an LL01 spec for those engines. (or even include the N54 and N55). I'm not sure if Castrol Edge 0W40 is now not the right formula for my car (N52) or if it lost the cert b/c of the N20 testing. To me the the memo from Hehr Weishaupl, isn't clear that it isn't a fail because of N20 testing.

Not overly concerned b/c I currently put so few miles on that I'm changing based on time,
 
Originally Posted by GJM120
There are so many N51 and N52 engines in service I wish BMW would get a bit more granular and keep an LL01 spec for those engines. (or even include the N54 and N55). I'm not sure if Castrol Edge 0W40 is now not the right formula for my car (N52) or if it lost the cert b/c of the N20 testing. To me the the memo from Hehr Weishaupl, isn't clear that it isn't a fail because of N20 testing.

Not overly concerned b/c I currently put so few miles on that I'm changing based on time,

N51 and N52 are still included. BMW expanded testing to include B generation of engines. N20 testing is similarly outdated as is N52.
Vehicle manufacturers, especially European, will update specifications in lieu of evidence about real life performance of their engines. There is plethora of LL01 oils available, including Castrol 5W40. Castrol did not decide to drop down LL01 bcs. they do not want to do N20 test. Castrol just recently updated 5W40 and it has now MB229.5 and retained LL01. Also, Castrol carries 5W30 A3/B3 B4 oil that has LL01 approval.
So, my take is that both Mobil1 and Castrol 0W40 are not suitable for new LL01 update and therefore cannot be approved. Are they still OK in N52 generation of engines? Yes. But, we do not know exactly what are 2018 LL01 updates except additional tests. It might include some changes in order to prolong life of gaskets. We do not know. That is why, regardless that I always used Castrol 0W30 and 0W40, I use in my BMW Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, or would not mind using some other oil that has LL01 approval.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by GJM120
There are so many N51 and N52 engines in service I wish BMW would get a bit more granular and keep an LL01 spec for those engines. (or even include the N54 and N55). I'm not sure if Castrol Edge 0W40 is now not the right formula for my car (N52) or if it lost the cert b/c of the N20 testing. To me the the memo from Hehr Weishaupl, isn't clear that it isn't a fail because of N20 testing.

Not overly concerned b/c I currently put so few miles on that I'm changing based on time,

N51 and N52 are still included. BMW expanded testing to include B generation of engines. N20 testing is similarly outdated as is N52.
Vehicle manufacturers, especially European, will update specifications in lieu of evidence about real life performance of their engines. There is plethora of LL01 oils available, including Castrol 5W40. Castrol did not decide to drop down LL01 bcs. they do not want to do N20 test. Castrol just recently updated 5W40 and it has now MB229.5 and retained LL01. Also, Castrol carries 5W30 A3/B3 B4 oil that has LL01 approval.
So, my take is that both Mobil1 and Castrol 0W40 are not suitable for new LL01 update and therefore cannot be approved. Are they still OK in N52 generation of engines? Yes. But, we do not know exactly what are 2018 LL01 updates except additional tests. It might include some changes in order to prolong life of gaskets. We do not know. That is why, regardless that I always used Castrol 0W30 and 0W40, I use in my BMW Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, or would not mind using some other oil that has LL01 approval.


If there is anything at play aimed at gasket life, people with BMW's would love that.

I've got one more change of Edge 0W40 in inventory (older LL01 approved) and am not going to worry about using it, especially given my short intervals. Just curious if something in that oil was the reason it's no longer LL01 or if the formula changed.
 
Originally Posted by GJM120
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by GJM120
There are so many N51 and N52 engines in service I wish BMW would get a bit more granular and keep an LL01 spec for those engines. (or even include the N54 and N55). I'm not sure if Castrol Edge 0W40 is now not the right formula for my car (N52) or if it lost the cert b/c of the N20 testing. To me the the memo from Hehr Weishaupl, isn't clear that it isn't a fail because of N20 testing.

Not overly concerned b/c I currently put so few miles on that I'm changing based on time,

N51 and N52 are still included. BMW expanded testing to include B generation of engines. N20 testing is similarly outdated as is N52.
Vehicle manufacturers, especially European, will update specifications in lieu of evidence about real life performance of their engines. There is plethora of LL01 oils available, including Castrol 5W40. Castrol did not decide to drop down LL01 bcs. they do not want to do N20 test. Castrol just recently updated 5W40 and it has now MB229.5 and retained LL01. Also, Castrol carries 5W30 A3/B3 B4 oil that has LL01 approval.
So, my take is that both Mobil1 and Castrol 0W40 are not suitable for new LL01 update and therefore cannot be approved. Are they still OK in N52 generation of engines? Yes. But, we do not know exactly what are 2018 LL01 updates except additional tests. It might include some changes in order to prolong life of gaskets. We do not know. That is why, regardless that I always used Castrol 0W30 and 0W40, I use in my BMW Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, or would not mind using some other oil that has LL01 approval.


If there is anything at play aimed at gasket life, people with BMW's would love that.

I've got one more change of Edge 0W40 in inventory (older LL01 approved) and am not going to worry about using it, especially given my short intervals. Just curious if something in that oil was the reason it's no longer LL01 or if the formula changed.

If PP Euro 5W40 was not on sale, I would also use Castrol 0W40, regardless of LL01 or not. I am not big fan of M1 0W40 FS and that ridiculous sulfated ash levels.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
So, my take is that both Mobil1 and Castrol 0W40 are not suitable for new LL01 update and therefore cannot be approved.

I doubt it. I will explain below.

Originally Posted by GJM120
Just curious if something in that oil was the reason it's no longer LL01 or if the formula changed.

I don't think there is anything in these oils that prevents the LL-01 approval. The communication with BMW I posted earlier is telling that BMW uses generic additive packages from additive suppliers for approvals -- they call it "rebranding." ExxonMobil and Castrol do not use generic additive packages, which are inferior, sometimes vastly, to in-house-developed additive packages, in their flagship products such as Mobil 1. That's why the lowly, second-tier-oil Mobil Super has the LL-01 approval -- it probably uses a generic additive package. BMW probably charges a fortune for actual engine tests unless the oil company is Shell, which is their partner, and the only alternative for others is to go with a generic additive package.

[Linked Image from lh3.googleusercontent.com]


Originally Posted by edyvw
If PP Euro 5W40 was not on sale, I would also use Castrol 0W40, regardless of LL01 or not. I am not big fan of M1 0W40 FS and that ridiculous sulfated ash levels.

I agree to the unnecessity of LL-01, especially when the oil is bundled with Porsche A40 etc. These flagship oils are much better than second-tier oils such as Mobil Super that have the LL-01 approval. M1 FS 0W-40 is a truly full-SAPS oil. ACEA A3/B4 allows up to 1.6%; so, 1.34% is not over-the-top. They will probably reduce the SA in the API SP update by using a mixed calcium and magnesium detergent.
 
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