'best' conventional 10w-40 pcmo for wet clutch bike

[Overfill]

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted by Brian553
You need a thick base oil to run with the gearbox on a shared sump bike.



Think again Brian... Blackstone Labs data shows thin is in...

The Importance of Viscosity?
Quote Blackstone Labs

The viscosity, or thickness of the oil, is not nearly as important
as many people think. Oil retains its nature no matter what thickness
it is.Think about this: automakers are continually recommending
lighter multi-grade oil in new engines. The reason is increased
efficiency. It takes power to pump oil through an engine, and the
lighter the oil, the less power required to pump it. The oil's ability
to act like a solid and protect parts is not related to its thickness.
If that doesn't sound quite right, consider this: The gears in a
heavy duty Allison automatic transmission are doing the same work as
the same machine equipped with an Eaton manual transmission. Due to
the hydraulics of the automatic, it runs on a 10W automatic
transmission oil.But the manual transmission uses a very thick
(sometimes up to 90W)gear lube oil. The gears of both types of
transmissions will have a similar life span. We don't find any
significant differences in wear, regardless of oil thickness.


So why not put the lightest weight gear lube in the Eaton manual transmission?
Aren't these weights and blends appropriated to each transmission?

For all oil-pumped regions, such as bearings, he can put as thin as can maintain oil pressure at idle. The finished oil can have a thick cut of base oil.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by krismoriah72
Originally Posted by kmrcstintn
I am seeking feedback on what folks feel is the 'best' conventional 10w-40 pcmo for use wet clutch bikes...before someone tells me to spend the 'extra few bucks' on motorcycle oil I wanna let it be known that I do shorter OCI's deliberately to reduce shearing; those 'extra few bucks' add up! I also want to use 10w-40(vs 15w-40 hdeo) for better flow during cool temps...


The cheapest 10w40 that i know of is Supertech at $3.12/qt but you asked for the 'best conventional """"" for use in wet clutch bikes" but you also want to save 'extra bucks'.. so i am going to go out on a limb here and say Valvoline 4 Stroke ATV.

Its $4.54 a quart https://www.walmart.com/ip/Valvolin...514362?variantFieldId=multipack_quantity
And has all the specs you need.

Regular Valvoline White Bottle 10w40 is $6 a quart so i think its a bargain.


^^^that
If you can find it near you

 

[natas]

Originally Posted by kmrcstintn
I am seeking feedback on what folks feel is the 'best' conventional 10w-40 pcmo for use wet clutch bikes...before someone tells me to spend the 'extra few bucks' on motorcycle oil I wanna let it be known that I do shorter OCI's deliberately to reduce shearing; those 'extra few bucks' add up! I also want to use 10w-40(vs 15w-40 hdeo) for better flow during cool temps...



So over the last couple weeks, I've been in the same exact boat as you, trying to figure this out, trying to do "my homework". Good for you. You will know more as you are learning all this stuff (as am I), than most people on the planet, and use it to your advantage.

It seems that a "good quality/motorcycle specific oil" shares a few things in common, and I could be very wrong on this. They usually have high amounts of calcium (1500+...usually 2000-3000). Zinc and Phosphorous will usually be high as well around 800+ (closer to 900+). Moly will usually be none to low. Moly can cause issues with wet clutch because moly is a friction modifier and can cause clutch slippage. It's great for cars. (I love chevron for the cars). And I would actually say that a little is actually good for the bike too (50-80ppm? maybe?), for the engine. And that amount should not impact the friction discs of the clutch. Any shot of boron would be nice too.

So this is what I've been doing for homework. I have a motorcycle that takes API SE,SF,SG,SH or SJ 10w-40 or 20w-50 or JASO MA oil. The current standard is SN which supersedes all previous categories the lower Ca but higher amounts of Mg--better/worse?--no idea.) But, that's for automotive not motorcycle applications (Someone correct me on this I'm wrong)..So, I have to be careful. I found a VOA on here for OEM Kawasaki oil in 20w-50 that I am using as a baseline reference to find an oil that meets or exceeds what was found in that OEM oil. The Kawasaki oil is no frills,but is what "they" recommend. The same could prob. be said of Honda (Gn4, etc), or Yamalube, etc. Kawasaki's voa on that 20w50 was: 24 Moly, 2 Boron, 3 Silicon, 2 Sodium, 1511 Calcium, 9 Magnesium, 957 Phosphorous, 1085 Zinc. Calcium is a detergent/dispersant. Phosphorous and Zinc are anti wear agents. I think boron is also a detergent, u can find that all out on here or pqiamerica. Anyway, I'm just trying to match or exceed those numbers.

Rotella I think is what I will go with because it matches and exceeds OEM Kawasaki oil and better price. No moly in it tho. And most (but not all) m/c specific oils have no moly. And if they do, it's "usually a small amount. GTX 10w-40 also seems attractive because of its high Calcium (2332), relatively decent Phosphorous and Zinc (792 and 860), and 85 moly. and good shot of boron at 166.

The bike I have currently have has Quaker State 10w-40 SN oil. And I've yet to do my first oil change on it (I just got it). I'm going to send a sample to Blackstone. I was able to find a voa on QSAD 10w-40 to help me on my homework on comparing oils. To my surprise the Quaker State (which I generally am not a fan of, owned by Shell now, but still), had higher moly at 116. boron at 67, calcium a little low at around 1447. Magnesium 13, Phosphorous and Zinc around 475 and 581--pretty low. That being said, the previous owner changed the oil (QSAD) every 1k miles. Not more or less. Every 1k. Bike is at 16k and still does not need to be valve shimmed. Bike runs great. Clutch grabs, etc. Now the question I'm trying to figure out is, do I continue to put QSAD in it, or go with Rotella (T4), or GTX? Regardless of which one I go with, I'm still going to change it every 1k. Hope my brain [censored] helps u.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Can you please stop with this nonsense you keep posting? What you've posted in regards to what the winter rating means is not correct. You've posted it before and it has been carefully explained to you multiple times but yet here it is again.

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
You're right about 10w flowing quicker than a 15w during critical start up... this is true whether outside temp is 0º or 104º however once operating temp is establish both flow as a 40 Grade...

The sole purpose API ranks the first number 10 and the letter W is to
inform the buyer the oils ability to flow during critical start up
because API knows the most wear happens during critical startup...
0W

5W

10W

15W

20W



Well, the wrinkle (and on thing to keep in mind) in this is an oil with a lower "W" rating will flow better inside the engine where it's not being directly pushed to components by the positive displacement oil pump. One region of the engine where the PD doesn't directly deliver oil flow is between the piston skirt and cylinder wall, or to the rod top end small journal bearing.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by natas
Moly can cause issues with wet clutch because moly is a friction modifier and can cause clutch slippage..


Negative... mileage not moly is the observed cause of clutch slippage...

The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...
employing those tools we observe that the primary cause clutch slip
are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches
that begin to slip... oil choice whether JASO approved or not is not a
constant... High mileage is the constant where all clutches begin to
loose grip due to normal glazing and contaminates that build up over use...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by kschachn
What you've posted in regards to what the winter rating means is not correct.


The W in 10W does not stand for "winter"... technically speaking the W is just a designation of one type of testing vs another...

From SAE J300 p.2:
"Two series of viscosity grades are defined in Table (1): (a) those
containing the letter W and (b) those without. Single viscosity grade
oils with the letter W are defined by maximum low temperature cranking
and pumping viscosities and a minimum kinematic viscosity at 100C.
Single grade oils without the letter W are based on a set of minimum
and maximum kinematic viscosities at 100C and a minimum high shear
rate viscosity at 150C. The shear rate will depend on the test method.
Multigrade grade oils are defined by both of these criteria.... The W
is just a designation of one type of testing vs another. I personally
asked them if it stood for "winter" and they flatly said "no".

 

[natas]

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted by natas
Moly can cause issues with wet clutch because moly is a friction modifier and can cause clutch slippage..


Negative... mileage not moly is the observed cause of clutch slippage...

The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...
employing those tools we observe that the primary cause clutch slip
are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches
that begin to slip... oil choice whether JASO approved or not is not a
constant... High mileage is the constant where all clutches begin to
loose grip due to normal glazing and contaminates that build up over use...

I just read your post from https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3091483

I'm still learning..lol

So triple digit Moly of 116 should be just fine if clutch is still relatively intact w/ respect to miles? The Quaker Stuff in my bike right now (bought that way--1st oil change is pending), I admit, nothing seems/feels wrong with it at all.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
The W in 10W does not stand for "winter"... technically speaking the W is just a designation of one type of testing vs another...

From SAE J300 p.2:
"Two series of viscosity grades are defined in Table (1): (a) those
containing the letter W and (b) those without. Single viscosity grade
oils with the letter W are defined by maximum low temperature cranking
and pumping viscosities and a minimum kinematic viscosity at 100C.
Single grade oils without the letter W are based on a set of minimum
and maximum kinematic viscosities at 100C and a minimum high shear
rate viscosity at 150C. The shear rate will depend on the test method.
Multigrade grade oils are defined by both of these criteria.... The W
is just a designation of one type of testing vs another. I personally asked them if it stood for "winter" and they flatly said "no".

Right, okay. But you need to tell Afton, ExxonMobil, Castrol, Valvoline, Rymax, Infineum and all the rest though. Can you let them know?

What about this part?

Quote
You're right about 10w flowing quicker than a 15w during critical start up... this is true whether outside temp is 0º or 104º

or maybe that other post where you claimed:

Quote
If you wish to employ the latest in oil technology then you want an one with an low number API W rank...

 

[natas]

2000 Toyota ECHO, 284K..I hope mine gets to there and 300. Echos don't die..lol. 230K on mine.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted by natas
Moly can cause issues with wet clutch because moly is a friction modifier and can cause clutch slippage..


Negative... mileage not moly is the observed cause of clutch slippage...

The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...
employing those tools we observe that the primary cause clutch slip
are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches
that begin to slip... oil choice whether JASO approved or not is not a
constant... High mileage is the constant where all clutches begin to
loose grip due to normal glazing and contaminates that build up over use...

But the wrinkle is if non JASO oils are used, there may be a low level of slippage that will glaze and wear the clutch plates out a bit faster. Then the operator thinks he just wore out his clutch plates per-maturely because he didn't know how to treat a clutch while riding (not talking about you). Glazed clutch plates are from slippage that can be heavily induced by the way the operator uses the clutch lever, or a combo of that along with non JASO oil.

 

[FastGame]

If moly is bad for clutches why does Redline use moly in all of their motorcycle oils ? Molybdenum, avg PPM - 425, across the 4T line of oils.

 

[natas]

Originally Posted by FastGame
If moly is bad for clutches why does Redline use moly in all of their motorcycle oils ? Molybdenum, avg PPM - 425, across the 4T line of oils.



¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I kno. 6 one way 1/2 dozen the other. Almost seems like, if your bike will run it fine, choose a brand and enjoy. If not, rinse and repeat with another brand. I guess the "energy conserving" part is to be more scared about vs moly content if what others have said are correct. I like to get all sides.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by FastGame
If moly is bad for clutches why does Redline use moly in all of their motorcycle oils ? Molybdenum, avg PPM - 425, across the 4T line of oils.


Redline is not only heavy on moly but JASO MA approved... mounting evidence that Moly will not and has never been the culprit responsible for clutch slip... look to high mileage...

JASO Motorcycle oils that also employ moly...

Honda GN4
Suzuki Ecstar
Motul 7100
Asmoil MC
Mobil 4T

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted by natas

I guess the "energy conserving" part is to be more scared about vs moly content if what others have said are correct. I like to get all sides.


BITOG has the data and if you dig you'll discover that
Manufactures warn against it and owners are leery of it but Energy
Conserving is not additive... its an API test that this "oil MAY
result is an overall saving of fuel in the vehicle fleet as a
whole"... there is nothing in the oil to defeat a wet clutch...


My RC45 has over 57K miles and those are miles not in moderation
either... its a homologated race bike with a first gear good for
90mph... since 98 I've been running Mobil 1 Energy Conserving oil 365
days a year... with no clutch slippage due to oil... competition and track
days yes... but true to its racing intent 50K clutch life is to be
expected...

 

[alarmguy]

Where can you get "energy conserving" 10w40 oil?

 

[krismoriah72]

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Where can you get "energy conserving" 10w40 oil?


From his signature his bike uses... 94 RC45 #2 58,000 on 30 Grade, Currently Mobil 1 5W30 SN

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by krismoriah72
Originally Posted by alarmguy
Where can you get "energy conserving" 10w40 oil?


From his signature his bike uses... 94 RC45 #2 58,000 on 30 Grade, Currently Mobil 1 5W30 SN


But the OP says he is looking for 10w40 and I dont know of any energy conserving 10w40 but busy Little Shop seems to be commenting on it.
So I am curious if he knows if it exists. He is commenting on a thread regarding 10w40 and if he is talking about his own 5/30 then he should clarify it has nothing to do with the OP post because to me anyway I take his posts as him addressing the OP or why bother commenting then?

 

[jeff78]

Originally Posted by krismoriah72
Originally Posted by alarmguy
Where can you get "energy conserving" 10w40 oil?


From his signature his bike uses... 94 RC45 #2 58,000 on 30 Grade, Currently Mobil 1 5W30 SN


There are no 40 grade energy conserving oils. EC oils must be 30 grade or below.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by jeff78
Originally Posted by krismoriah72
Originally Posted by alarmguy
Where can you get "energy conserving" 10w40 oil?


From his signature his bike uses... 94 RC45 #2 58,000 on 30 Grade, Currently Mobil 1 5W30 SN


There are no 40 grade energy conserving oils. EC oils must be 30 grade or below.

I agree 100%. I thought maybe I was missing something based on the other post.

 

[troop]

Gee .. Back in the day, I always went by this label. Never had any issues with clutch slippage with non energy conserving oil.