Another Zinc question

Status
Not open for further replies.
1

1977c10phxdriver

Joined
May 4, 2004
Messages
382
Location
Phoenix Arizona
I know this has been beat to death but i'm in need of CURRENT info on Zinc content in the major brands.

I"m a moderator on a hotrod board and quite often people post about the new oils NOT having any Zinc and this is the reason that there are so many cam/lifter failures on new engines. All the links that I have on oil makeup are fairly old and was wondering if there were any updated spec sheets out there. While I understand that Zinc content has been reduced, I don't believe that it's totally gone. And is Rotella "that" good for new engine breakin? Some say it's loaded with Zinc? Yes? No?
confused.gif


Thanks.
Mark
 
That shouls say, "Zinc is being reduced but NOT eliminated."

However new and exotic additive chemistries are being developed to supplement the reduced ZDDP.
 
The questions are along the lines of(and no means complete):

A) Does SM oil have enough P (800 ppm limit) and Zn to protect old style engines?
B) What oils have lots (greater than 1000/1100/1200 ppm) of P and Zn.

A) Debatable.
B) Old style and diesel and race oils of various brands.

All the Amsoil diesel oils have enough with the exception of the new DEO.

This is pretty handy, except they left my favorite oil off, ACD 10W-30 HDEO. Not sure why they forgot it!

Amsoil Flat Tappet white paper
 
It is interesting that the Amsoil Flat Tappet white paper was written to address this need. I imagine they're working on a new formula for the others oils because of the trend for reduced zinc levels as an additive.
 
From the Amsoil marketing brochure:(err... white paper)
OBJECTIVE:
Provide facts outlining lubrication requirements of flat tap-pet and camshaft style engines and the effect of motor oil additives containing higher levels of zinc/phosphorus.

The marketing flier contained no information on what the requirements for flat tappet camshaft engines are. Nor did it discuss the effects of motor oil additives containing higher levels of zinc/phosphorus. I saw nothing but the same assumptions made by the consuming public.
The only "facts" I read were concerning API and ILSAC requirements.

That Amsoil white paper contained a whole bunch of nothing.
Other than...(paraphrasing) our oils have high amounts of these components, and we say that since motors using heavier springs requires a well formulated motor oil, it only makes since to buy our oils with high amounts of these components.
Oh...and use a good rebuilt product.

Quote:

All the Amsoil diesel oils have enough with the exception of the new DEO.

Click to expand...
I am very curious what you feel is "enough"? And, what did you base this on?

I am not trying my best to slam all of your information, Pablo. It's just when a real discussion turns into a marketing spiel, then I feel the marketing information provided should deserve the same scrutiny as the rest of the information discussed.

I think that providing these little marketing brochures, in an attempt to have them viewed as unbiased technical discussions, adds very little value to the real debate.

I would much rather see some hard evidence as to what the levels of ZDDP should be.
Especially since I am one of those in the camp that thinks motor oils could be formulated to easily protect the most severe of IC engine applications, without one iota of zinc or phosphorus in the mix.

I think that there are many reasons why ZDDP is still used. One being price of the additive, and another being the fact that ZDDP is a good anti-oxidant component, that just happens to have good AW properties.

To judge an oils integrity by the content of ZDDP just doesn't wash. But I suppose if that is what conventional wisdom is stating, then why not market towards their myths and misconceptions? After all, it is the ignorant consuming public that spends the real coin. (shrug)
 
Quote:

I am very curious what you feel is "enough"? And, what did you base this on?

Click to expand...


Quote:

oils have lots (greater than 1000/1100/1200 ppm) of P and Zn.

Click to expand...


Nothing scientific at all just the old numbers that supposedly worked well for years.

The brochure may have been handy for some new folks, certainly not someone such as yourself with superior intellect and vast, deep knowledge.
 
Glad that they finally put out a bulletin on it. I know of no other company to address the issue like this.

Jaybird it sound like you are a little "chapped" by this. Why would you get bent out of shape so much? The recommendations are based on previous use of the additives which prevented the cam issue.

As far as what to use I am recommending the TRO in all the older flat tappet vehicles. Mostly that surrounds GM 350's which the 10W-40 should be fine in. Pablo I too like the ACD but it only comes in gallons.
 
Jaybird is always chapped by Amsoil. It's pretty interesting that as such an expert, he makes no real attempt to answer the OP's question. I thought that my post at least exposed Amsoil’s position. And that is to say – they aren’t recommending their API SM SAE XW-30 oils for hi-po older style engines with non-stock high (spring) pressure type valve trains. So for him to say “it says nothing” is just his bias talking. I typically try to ignore his posts, but when he asks a question I will answer it – but I always feel like no matter how straight forward I try to be – he his digging a pit, putting the sharp sticks in, and covering the hole with twigs and leaves……

I will say that, yes an oil could be made with ZERO Zn and zero P – but it would be very expensive and it really doesn’t answer the original question.

PS I do think there is much more to nasty cam and valve train wear than lower Zn and P, and I have public stated so. I think in the interest of brevity and PC, Amsoil didn’t bring up possible bad designs, lousy cam metallurgy, khrappy manufacturing, etc
 
I wonder if the reduction of zinc has anything to do with spun bearings in WRX's? Particularly, the earlier model ones with higher mileage. There are regular posts in nasioc.com's 2.0L forum about spun bearings.

A lot of WRX owner's automatically use energy conserving 5W30 regardless of their driving conditions, state of tune/mods, geographic location, etc. because 5W30 is "preferred" for fuel economy. The manual does allow for thicker weights in hot temps and severe conditions.

I think most of these guys don't do UOA's either.

-Dennis
 
Pablo, I'm curious now as to how expensive it would be to make a totally Zn and P free oil. Bruce381, can you chime in here and say what could be done?
grin.gif
 
Consider Maxlife. It has the new SM zddp levels, but also 300 ppm moly. It may be that the moly makes up for the reduced zinc. This may be the oil for all of us who cherish the high zddp of older spec oils.
 
What about Brad Penn Racing and Break-in Oils? I understand the Break-in oil is loaded with ZDDP, and the racing oils have a respectable amount of ZDDP.
 
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post838665

See above. Also do search on "LN Engineering" oils.html for test data.

A year ago I started looking for new oil for old Porsche 911. First thing I had to do was access ZDDP requirements which would limit oils I could use. I found the Hotrod Mag article, then the MG restoration shop, studied what the cam mgf'r were saying, then the above referenced article on test development.

I don't know enough about cams/springs to know if the test sequence development covers my application.

Certainly I would like to hear more from performance engine builders on actual experiences.

My conclusion for my stock app is that lower levels are not an issue. Break-in is likely a different story. But aggressive cams/springs are also.

When does it become a problem ? Maybe you can help answer that.
 
Last edited:
Quote:



A) Does SM oil have enough P (800 ppm limit) and Zn to protect old style engines?
B) What oils have lots (greater than 1000/1100/1200 ppm) of P and Zn.

A) Debatable.
B) Old style and diesel and race oils of various brands.



Click to expand...


The Amsoil paper was informative, thanks.

I've been following this issue for the last year after losing a cam on break-in that I couldn't find any clear reason for. After combing the net (landing me here) about this issue I have found only three oils that I could get a "High" ZDDP PPM amount (I'm not saying that there are not anymore, this is what I've found). Brad penn (1200) Valvoline VR1 (1300) And now the Amsoil listed in the paper. And after seeing the write-ups here about SLOB I went about calling CD2, finding that Turtlewax owns the CD2 line and SLOB is DISCONTIUED (right at the same time as GM EOS) I've called all my jobbers that sell oil additives and have not found anything with ZDDP (again, not that it doesn't exist, But mainstream automotive distributors either can't get the info, or don't carry it). My main question is what was the levels of ZDDP PPM in oil BEFORE the changes? Is that 1000-1200 the most excepted figure?

At this stage of the game I see no additives that can be used with low ZDDP level oil. So that leaves the previously mentioned three brands. I'm not here to get into the whole ZDDP debate, I just want to make my choice on what has worked in the past. For the record, I also do not believe that the absence of ZDDP is to blame fully for whats happening with flat-tappet (mechanical issue/break-in problems excluded) wear. Especially after spending one hour talking to Crane Tech, and being told to break the cam in with less than 100 pounds of spring pressure (either break-in spring which they don't offer, or removing inner springs if appicable) This is included in their break-in instruction now, but the seven year-old (NIB)cam instructions says nothing about. Point being, what changed that that has do be done?

Thanks for the response in advance.
 
Quote:


I added a half bottle of SLOB to raise the zinc level to SM standards and the noise stopped in both cars.

Click to expand...

I agree, just pick your favorite SM oil and add a bottle of
SLOB to it, Done.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

6
'67 Cougar, 289 CI oil.
2
Replies
28
Views
1K
Faawrenchbndr
H
High zinc and hydraulic lifters
Replies
5
Views
2K
Haakon
R
1960-ish Engine-Wear Protection
Replies
12
Views
836
Cujet
M
Which oil for breaking in 2024 F250 7.3?
3 4 5
Replies
91
Views
17K
AndreBeaule
6
Buick 401 Nailhead Oil
2
Replies
28
Views
5K
Randy_R
Back
Top Bottom