I'm running PP 5-20 in my Nissan 2.5 that calls for 5-30. I'm picking up a new engine tomorrow for it and wanna see if it'll use more 5-20 than it did 5-30. I'm also trying to blow this thing up with lots of full throttle whole shots. FWIW, the engine sounds like poo on 20 weight , lifters are ticking and the engine as a whole sound horrible.
5w30 Throw Off VVT [ 5w20 Vehicle ] ?
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Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by ka9mnx
The original Mobil1 was 5w-20 but claimed to protect better than a 10w-40. It was basically a 20 grade oil that pumped like a 5w when cold. It had a much higher HTHS than xw-20's of today (HTHS wasn't published back then so I don't know what it was) hence the "protects better than a 10w-40".
Demarpaint, Ka9mnx, if I recall correctly, Shannow said the M1 5W20 had the HTHS of what would today be a 30 grade oil.
Also some 10W40 grades back then had very low HTHS and were just thin oils all jacked up on polymer VII, so they didn't protect as well as they were supposed to and they heavily contaminated the engines they were used in.
That is when they began to realise that HTHS was the core parameter, not traditional viscosity and so J300 was updated to define viscosity and HTHS for an oil grade.
It's probably more accurate to say that back in the day Tig1 was running a high quality M1 5W30 that was miss-labeled as M1 5W20, which was far superior to the low quality 10W40's which were not 40 grades (lower HTHS) and were likely to heavily sludge your engine.
To be honest, good work Tig1, back then I would have been one of those fools running trash 10W40. But he was running a 30 grade M1 by today's definition.
Thanks, that was my point. Mobil 1 5W20 back in the day was not a 20 grade oil by today's standards.
Either way a 5W30 oil, by today's standards is not going to "Throw Off VVT." If it does the engine has mechanical issues, not related 5W30 oil.
Disagree, and incorrect conclusion given the experiences noted.
I have my data points, you have YOUR data points. Put them together and we have
- It's engine specific if you will experience issues.
And on the early M1 oil my Chevy wouldn't run on it. - a great running engine - so
It was not a "One size fits all" miracle oil.
And what M1 5w20 now? Not high HTHS and just a mild syn blend. - Not even as advertised.
You would have to move to AP to get the real deal.
Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by ka9mnx
The original Mobil1 was 5w-20 but claimed to protect better than a 10w-40. It was basically a 20 grade oil that pumped like a 5w when cold. It had a much higher HTHS than xw-20's of today (HTHS wasn't published back then so I don't know what it was) hence the "protects better than a 10w-40".
Demarpaint, Ka9mnx, if I recall correctly, Shannow said the M1 5W20 had the HTHS of what would today be a 30 grade oil.
Also some 10W40 grades back then had very low HTHS and were just thin oils all jacked up on polymer VII, so they didn't protect as well as they were supposed to and they heavily contaminated the engines they were used in.
That is when they began to realise that HTHS was the core parameter, not traditional viscosity and so J300 was updated to define viscosity and HTHS for an oil grade.
It's probably more accurate to say that back in the day Tig1 was running a high quality M1 5W30 that was miss-labeled as M1 5W20, which was far superior to the low quality 10W40's which were not 40 grades (lower HTHS) and were likely to heavily sludge your engine.
To be honest, good work Tig1, back then I would have been one of those fools running trash 10W40. But he was running a 30 grade M1 by today's definition.
Thanks, that was my point. Mobil 1 5W20 back in the day was not a 20 grade oil by today's standards.
Either way a 5W30 oil, by today's standards is not going to "Throw Off VVT." If it does the engine has mechanical issues, not related 5W30 oil.
Disagree, and incorrect conclusion given the experiences noted.
I have my data points, you have YOUR data points. Put them together and we have
- It's engine specific if you will experience issues.
And on the early M1 oil my Chevy wouldn't run on it. - a great running engine - so
It was not a "One size fits all" miracle oil.
And what M1 5w20 now? Not high HTHS and just a mild syn blend. - Not even as advertised.
You would have to move to AP to get the real deal.
Originally Posted by D1dad
I'm running PP 5-20 in my Nissan 2.5 that calls for 5-30. I'm picking up a new engine tomorrow for it and wanna see if it'll use more 5-20 than it did 5-30. I'm also trying to blow this thing up with lots of full throttle whole shots. FWIW, the engine sounds like poo on 20 weight , lifters are ticking and the engine as a whole sound horrible.
HA, HA !
That better not be pointed at me!
My QR25DE doesn't have hydraulic lash adjusters.
Also, I now have a VW junk box lease.
I'm running PP 5-20 in my Nissan 2.5 that calls for 5-30. I'm picking up a new engine tomorrow for it and wanna see if it'll use more 5-20 than it did 5-30. I'm also trying to blow this thing up with lots of full throttle whole shots. FWIW, the engine sounds like poo on 20 weight , lifters are ticking and the engine as a whole sound horrible.
HA, HA !
That better not be pointed at me!
My QR25DE doesn't have hydraulic lash adjusters.
Also, I now have a VW junk box lease.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Too often folks are trying connect dots already in their heads
My 2010 5.3 was louder on 15w40 than my 2017 5.3 is on 0w20
My 2010 5.3 was louder on 15w40 than my 2017 5.3 is on 0w20
Nope. Im just trying an experiment. I have several qts of 5-20 left from a ford I sold and have began topping off with it just to see what happens with consumption. When I used M1 HM 10-30 this car used WAY more oil than usual. I wanna see if a thinner oil uses less. I've got an engine with 30k going in it in the next few weeks so why not.
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by D1dad
I'm running PP 5-20 in my Nissan 2.5 that calls for 5-30. I'm picking up a new engine tomorrow for it and wanna see if it'll use more 5-20 than it did 5-30. I'm also trying to blow this thing up with lots of full throttle whole shots. FWIW, the engine sounds like poo on 20 weight , lifters are ticking and the engine as a whole sound horrible.
HA, HA !
That better not be pointed at me!
My QR25DE doesn't have hydraulic lash adjusters.
Also, I now have a VW junk box lease.
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by D1dad
I'm running PP 5-20 in my Nissan 2.5 that calls for 5-30. I'm picking up a new engine tomorrow for it and wanna see if it'll use more 5-20 than it did 5-30. I'm also trying to blow this thing up with lots of full throttle whole shots. FWIW, the engine sounds like poo on 20 weight , lifters are ticking and the engine as a whole sound horrible.
HA, HA !
That better not be pointed at me!
My QR25DE doesn't have hydraulic lash adjusters.
Also, I now have a VW junk box lease.
Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by tig1
M1 5-20 was a 5-20 in the 70's. What would be the reason for a deception?
What I said above, HTHS was for a 30 grade when it was called M1 5W20 back then. Back then HTHS was not included in J300, now it is and the same oil could not be called a 20 grade. Not a deception, just weakly defined standards.
But you know all this as Shannow has told you this many times before.
BTW that "505K in my last 3 Ford Duratech engine" was a cumulative total I assume. That's only ~ 170k miles per engine, fine enough, but nothing special.
My reading was that early Mobil1 5W-20 would fall into the xW-20 range even today, as far as viscosity at 100C. However, its HTHS viscosity was well above the modern minimum for xW-30. Therefore, it did indeed offer as much protection as a dubious1970s 10W-40. That might not technically require it to be labeled as a 5W-30 by today's rules, although logically it probably should.
I agree that tig1's claims of 505k on Mobil1 0W-20 would be more impressive if he didn't keep replacing the engine.
Originally Posted by tig1
M1 5-20 was a 5-20 in the 70's. What would be the reason for a deception?
What I said above, HTHS was for a 30 grade when it was called M1 5W20 back then. Back then HTHS was not included in J300, now it is and the same oil could not be called a 20 grade. Not a deception, just weakly defined standards.
But you know all this as Shannow has told you this many times before.
BTW that "505K in my last 3 Ford Duratech engine" was a cumulative total I assume. That's only ~ 170k miles per engine, fine enough, but nothing special.
My reading was that early Mobil1 5W-20 would fall into the xW-20 range even today, as far as viscosity at 100C. However, its HTHS viscosity was well above the modern minimum for xW-30. Therefore, it did indeed offer as much protection as a dubious1970s 10W-40. That might not technically require it to be labeled as a 5W-30 by today's rules, although logically it probably should.
I agree that tig1's claims of 505k on Mobil1 0W-20 would be more impressive if he didn't keep replacing the engine.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by ka9mnx
The original Mobil1 was 5w-20 but claimed to protect better than a 10w-40. It was basically a 20 grade oil that pumped like a 5w when cold. It had a much higher HTHS than xw-20's of today (HTHS wasn't published back then so I don't know what it was) hence the "protects better than a 10w-40".
Demarpaint, Ka9mnx, if I recall correctly, Shannow said the M1 5W20 had the HTHS of what would today be a 30 grade oil.
Also some 10W40 grades back then had very low HTHS and were just thin oils all jacked up on polymer VII, so they didn't protect as well as they were supposed to and they heavily contaminated the engines they were used in.
That is when they began to realise that HTHS was the core parameter, not traditional viscosity and so J300 was updated to define viscosity and HTHS for an oil grade.
It's probably more accurate to say that back in the day Tig1 was running a high quality M1 5W30 that was miss-labeled as M1 5W20, which was far superior to the low quality 10W40's which were not 40 grades (lower HTHS) and were likely to heavily sludge your engine.
To be honest, good work Tig1, back then I would have been one of those fools running trash 10W40. But he was running a 30 grade M1 by today's definition.
M1 5-20 was a 5-20 in the 70's. What would be the reason for a deception?
What I said above, HTHS was for a 30 grade when it was called M1 5W20 back then. Back then HTHS was not included in J300, now it is and the same oil could not be called a 20 grade. Not a deception, just weakly defined standards.
But you know all this as Shannow has told you this many times before.
BTW that "505K in my last 3 Ford Duratech engine" was a cumulative total I assume. That's only ~ 170k miles per engine, fine enough, but nothing special.
175K on my 2007 Focus when it was totaled. 252K on my present 2007 Fusion. 85K on my present 2017 Fusion. 512 K total now all with M1 20wt oils. with most of that using M1 0-20. I would be interested in proof that M1 5-20 in the 70s was a 30 wt oil. Not because Shannow said so. Just sayin.
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by ka9mnx
The original Mobil1 was 5w-20 but claimed to protect better than a 10w-40. It was basically a 20 grade oil that pumped like a 5w when cold. It had a much higher HTHS than xw-20's of today (HTHS wasn't published back then so I don't know what it was) hence the "protects better than a 10w-40".
Demarpaint, Ka9mnx, if I recall correctly, Shannow said the M1 5W20 had the HTHS of what would today be a 30 grade oil.
Also some 10W40 grades back then had very low HTHS and were just thin oils all jacked up on polymer VII, so they didn't protect as well as they were supposed to and they heavily contaminated the engines they were used in.
That is when they began to realise that HTHS was the core parameter, not traditional viscosity and so J300 was updated to define viscosity and HTHS for an oil grade.
It's probably more accurate to say that back in the day Tig1 was running a high quality M1 5W30 that was miss-labeled as M1 5W20, which was far superior to the low quality 10W40's which were not 40 grades (lower HTHS) and were likely to heavily sludge your engine.
To be honest, good work Tig1, back then I would have been one of those fools running trash 10W40. But he was running a 30 grade M1 by today's definition.
M1 5-20 was a 5-20 in the 70's. What would be the reason for a deception?
What I said above, HTHS was for a 30 grade when it was called M1 5W20 back then. Back then HTHS was not included in J300, now it is and the same oil could not be called a 20 grade. Not a deception, just weakly defined standards.
But you know all this as Shannow has told you this many times before.
BTW that "505K in my last 3 Ford Duratech engine" was a cumulative total I assume. That's only ~ 170k miles per engine, fine enough, but nothing special.
175K on my 2007 Focus when it was totaled. 252K on my present 2007 Fusion. 85K on my present 2017 Fusion. 512 K total now all with M1 20wt oils. with most of that using M1 0-20. I would be interested in proof that M1 5-20 in the 70s was a 30 wt oil. Not because Shannow said so. Just sayin.
Last edited:
Nothing, the control of the timing is from the ecu. It simply opens actuators that apply oil pressure to the camshaft gears in relation to timing. Pressure is pressure.it is simply an energy source to move the gears and lobes to the desired position, duration, lift and timing,
The fact that this can be constantly changing and adjusting to driving conditions, rpms, and load demand is hard to visualize. The fact that pressure moves the actuators when given an electronic signal is not. It's not a throttle, it's a on off. Switch.
Originally Posted by CONMCK
Originally Posted by Fallguy
Is it possible/probable for 5w 30 to throw off VVT in a 5w20 specked vehicle ?
So what happens to the functionality of a VVT engine before the oil reaches operating temperature??
The fact that this can be constantly changing and adjusting to driving conditions, rpms, and load demand is hard to visualize. The fact that pressure moves the actuators when given an electronic signal is not. It's not a throttle, it's a on off. Switch.
Originally Posted by CONMCK
Originally Posted by Fallguy
Is it possible/probable for 5w 30 to throw off VVT in a 5w20 specked vehicle ?
So what happens to the functionality of a VVT engine before the oil reaches operating temperature??
Originally Posted by tig1
... I would be interested in proof that M1 5-20 in the 70s was a 30 wt oil. Not because Shannow said so. Just sayin.
Assuming its viscosity at 100°C fell into the 20 category, that would make it officially a 20 by definition. If, however, it could have exceeded today's minimum HTHS viscosity specification for the 30 grade, then it would've offered the same protection as a modern 30. That would make it functionally, if not technically, a 30. Right?
... I would be interested in proof that M1 5-20 in the 70s was a 30 wt oil. Not because Shannow said so. Just sayin.
Assuming its viscosity at 100°C fell into the 20 category, that would make it officially a 20 by definition. If, however, it could have exceeded today's minimum HTHS viscosity specification for the 30 grade, then it would've offered the same protection as a modern 30. That would make it functionally, if not technically, a 30. Right?
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It would be neat to see a voa on that old 1970s M1 5W20.
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
It would be neat to see a voa on that old 1970s M1 5W20.
Probably high PAO is my guess. Lots of cars leaked and dealerships wouldn't warranty cars that used it. I think 5w20 was the first multi grade synthetic oil back then iirc. I kinda liked the way the oil cans looked back then too.
It would be neat to see a voa on that old 1970s M1 5W20.
Probably high PAO is my guess. Lots of cars leaked and dealerships wouldn't warranty cars that used it. I think 5w20 was the first multi grade synthetic oil back then iirc. I kinda liked the way the oil cans looked back then too.
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Nothing, the control of the timing is from the ecu. It simply opens actuators that apply oil pressure to the camshaft gears in relation to timing. Pressure is pressure.it is simply an energy source to move the gears and lobes to the desired position, duration, lift and timing,
The fact that this can be constantly changing and adjusting to driving conditions, rpms, and load demand is hard to visualize. The fact that pressure moves the actuators when given an electronic signal is not. It's not a throttle, it's a on off. Switch.
Originally Posted by CONMCK
Originally Posted by Fallguy
Is it possible/probable for 5w 30 to throw off VVT in a 5w20 specked vehicle ?
So what happens to the functionality of a VVT engine before the oil reaches operating temperature??
SO then 5w-20 vs 5w-30 is a moot point in this case??
Nothing, the control of the timing is from the ecu. It simply opens actuators that apply oil pressure to the camshaft gears in relation to timing. Pressure is pressure.it is simply an energy source to move the gears and lobes to the desired position, duration, lift and timing,
The fact that this can be constantly changing and adjusting to driving conditions, rpms, and load demand is hard to visualize. The fact that pressure moves the actuators when given an electronic signal is not. It's not a throttle, it's a on off. Switch.
Originally Posted by CONMCK
Originally Posted by Fallguy
Is it possible/probable for 5w 30 to throw off VVT in a 5w20 specked vehicle ?
So what happens to the functionality of a VVT engine before the oil reaches operating temperature??
SO then 5w-20 vs 5w-30 is a moot point in this case??
Originally Posted by CONMCK
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Nothing, the control of the timing is from the ecu. It simply opens actuators that apply oil pressure to the camshaft gears in relation to timing. Pressure is pressure.it is simply an energy source to move the gears and lobes to the desired position, duration, lift and timing,
The fact that this can be constantly changing and adjusting to driving conditions, rpms, and load demand is hard to visualize. The fact that pressure moves the actuators when given an electronic signal is not. It's not a throttle, it's a on off. Switch.
Originally Posted by CONMCK
Originally Posted by Fallguy
Is it possible/probable for 5w 30 to throw off VVT in a 5w20 specked vehicle ?
So what happens to the functionality of a VVT engine before the oil reaches operating temperature??
SO then 5w-20 vs 5w-30 is a moot point in this case??
Forget the warmup discussion, we are talking open loop warm engine operation.
Not moot on my cars. The intake cam position (WHEN the ecu commands wide timing variation to improve torque) will be OVER RETARDED with the more viscous oil. This caused a VERY NOTICEABLE loss of torque in the 1500 - 2500 rpm range. I experienced this FIRST HAND with CARS I OWN, Some Nissan, some Toyota, No Issue on the Honda Fit, - It didn't have VVTi.
- Ken
> B.S.M.E. and a former NIASE Master Mechanic <
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Nothing, the control of the timing is from the ecu. It simply opens actuators that apply oil pressure to the camshaft gears in relation to timing. Pressure is pressure.it is simply an energy source to move the gears and lobes to the desired position, duration, lift and timing,
The fact that this can be constantly changing and adjusting to driving conditions, rpms, and load demand is hard to visualize. The fact that pressure moves the actuators when given an electronic signal is not. It's not a throttle, it's a on off. Switch.
Originally Posted by CONMCK
Originally Posted by Fallguy
Is it possible/probable for 5w 30 to throw off VVT in a 5w20 specked vehicle ?
So what happens to the functionality of a VVT engine before the oil reaches operating temperature??
SO then 5w-20 vs 5w-30 is a moot point in this case??
Forget the warmup discussion, we are talking open loop warm engine operation.
Not moot on my cars. The intake cam position (WHEN the ecu commands wide timing variation to improve torque) will be OVER RETARDED with the more viscous oil. This caused a VERY NOTICEABLE loss of torque in the 1500 - 2500 rpm range. I experienced this FIRST HAND with CARS I OWN, Some Nissan, some Toyota, No Issue on the Honda Fit, - It didn't have VVTi.
- Ken
> B.S.M.E. and a former NIASE Master Mechanic <
It is moot that is a very marginal difference and the Vvt does not notice. I have run up to 0w40 in my Tacoma and my 4 runner with no issues With power, performance, or with mileage.
I am running 10w30 in the Tacoma right now.
Again, despite urban legends, the position sensor and the ecu control the retard and advance position. The oil viscosity does not in the toyota system., the oil is simply the energy to move things. the ecu and the actuators throttle and adjust that position constantly to maintain the throttle position,
(I will hedge to say there were certain american cyclinder deactivation systems that were viscosity sensitive, but I do not know them well.)
Additional reassurances can be had with the same systems used in other countries where the span of oils in the owners manual goes from 0w20 to 15w40. There is no difference in the engines. A gr in Australia is the same gr used in North America.
Originally Posted by CONMCK
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Nothing, the control of the timing is from the ecu. It simply opens actuators that apply oil pressure to the camshaft gears in relation to timing. Pressure is pressure.it is simply an energy source to move the gears and lobes to the desired position, duration, lift and timing,
The fact that this can be constantly changing and adjusting to driving conditions, rpms, and load demand is hard to visualize. The fact that pressure moves the actuators when given an electronic signal is not. It's not a throttle, it's a on off. Switch.
Originally Posted by CONMCK
Originally Posted by Fallguy
Is it possible/probable for 5w 30 to throw off VVT in a 5w20 specked vehicle ?
So what happens to the functionality of a VVT engine before the oil reaches operating temperature??
SO then 5w-20 vs 5w-30 is a moot point in this case??
I am running 10w30 in the Tacoma right now.
Again, despite urban legends, the position sensor and the ecu control the retard and advance position. The oil viscosity does not in the toyota system., the oil is simply the energy to move things. the ecu and the actuators throttle and adjust that position constantly to maintain the throttle position,
(I will hedge to say there were certain american cyclinder deactivation systems that were viscosity sensitive, but I do not know them well.)
Additional reassurances can be had with the same systems used in other countries where the span of oils in the owners manual goes from 0w20 to 15w40. There is no difference in the engines. A gr in Australia is the same gr used in North America.
Originally Posted by CONMCK
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Nothing, the control of the timing is from the ecu. It simply opens actuators that apply oil pressure to the camshaft gears in relation to timing. Pressure is pressure.it is simply an energy source to move the gears and lobes to the desired position, duration, lift and timing,
The fact that this can be constantly changing and adjusting to driving conditions, rpms, and load demand is hard to visualize. The fact that pressure moves the actuators when given an electronic signal is not. It's not a throttle, it's a on off. Switch.
Originally Posted by CONMCK
Originally Posted by Fallguy
Is it possible/probable for 5w 30 to throw off VVT in a 5w20 specked vehicle ?
So what happens to the functionality of a VVT engine before the oil reaches operating temperature??
SO then 5w-20 vs 5w-30 is a moot point in this case??
Originally Posted by PimTac
Doesn't most VVT systems wait until the engine is warmed up some before being activated?
Also, some systems are electronic now.
I have seen nor experienced any indication that the system doesn't operate immediately upon startup. I haven't gone real hard in the first mile in cold weather but When I hit an on-ramp to 65 with a cold engine within a minute of startup. it ramps right up as usual,with no lack of power or drop in the acceleration time.
The System is electronically controlled, energy from oil pressure is what powers the positioning of the cams (think like oil pump teeth getting pushed into position by pressure instead of driving oil pressure) the position sensors and the ecu determine the timing using the oil pressure to move the ca into position, if the cam is in the wrong position the system will direct pressure to move it into the correct position.
This is happening continuously, especially in my truck that runs on both "Atkinson" and Otto cycles and may switch between Them from cruising at 1800 rpms in Atkinson and nothing port and direct injection to high demand, where I hit 3500 + the air intake closes the efficiency loop, the direct injection takes over completely and the truck goes into Otto cycle for max power.
That's a busy ecu,
Doesn't most VVT systems wait until the engine is warmed up some before being activated?
Also, some systems are electronic now.
I have seen nor experienced any indication that the system doesn't operate immediately upon startup. I haven't gone real hard in the first mile in cold weather but When I hit an on-ramp to 65 with a cold engine within a minute of startup. it ramps right up as usual,with no lack of power or drop in the acceleration time.
The System is electronically controlled, energy from oil pressure is what powers the positioning of the cams (think like oil pump teeth getting pushed into position by pressure instead of driving oil pressure) the position sensors and the ecu determine the timing using the oil pressure to move the ca into position, if the cam is in the wrong position the system will direct pressure to move it into the correct position.
This is happening continuously, especially in my truck that runs on both "Atkinson" and Otto cycles and may switch between Them from cruising at 1800 rpms in Atkinson and nothing port and direct injection to high demand, where I hit 3500 + the air intake closes the efficiency loop, the direct injection takes over completely and the truck goes into Otto cycle for max power.
That's a busy ecu,
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