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#1598349 - 09/12/09 11:08 PM New Info on DEXOS
buster Online   content


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 22490
Loc: NJ
Quote:
Subject: Update on Dexos

Here is an update on the continued development of GM’s Dexos:

*2 additive companies (Lubrizol, Infineum?) presented their “Demonstration Programs” to GM and oil marketers
*This happens during the “Technology Demonstration Period” of a newly proposed spec
*GM approved the program and is moving forward to implementation, announcement coming soon
*The final step is “Commercializing” the specification after presenting to oil marketers
*Technical programs included use of 100% group III syn base stock
*May be able to use a mix of grp II+ & III, but not yet determined
*Lubrizol contracted with Steve Ames (BP base oil) to review group III supply
*Steve felt there was ample grp III supply due to the increase in production in Korea and Europe
NOTE: The U.S. lubricant market will now be reliant on foreign base oil supply
*Dexos is estimated to initially cost 30% more than GF-4
NOTE: Oil marketers will add additional margin, as is usually the case with a new category
*GM anticipates the product to be priced between GF-4 and a “Mobil 1”
*ExMo, Castrol Valvoline pushing back on Dexos: “commoditize” the synthetic market, reduced margins
*GM expressed continued focus and push towards extended drains (hence more robust engine oil)
*They will more than likely recalibrate the algorithm on OLM to further extend service life
*They did this with the intro of GF-4
*Dexos will be backward compatible and recommended for older GM vehicles
*GM wants to keep cars out of dealerships to lower expenses on warranty repairs
*May need Moly in 2011 when fuel economy test goes to Seq VI D (uses GM Cadillac CTS 3.6L)
*They will initially use the GF-4 Seq VI B test
*Moly will add another 20% to Dexos cost in 2011
*Dexos formulation is MORE robust than GF-5
*Tighter limits than GF-4’s Seq VG sludge protection and Seq IIIG weighted piston deposit tests
*Dexos uses ACEA (European) and proprietary Opel (GM) test OP-1 for these parameters
*Dexos is moving towards a “European” oil formulation
NOTE: GM plans to sell 75% of their fleet OUTSIDE the U.S.
*The weighted piston deposit requirements is facilitating the push towards grp III base oil
*GF-5 has tighter fuel economy requirements than Dexos
*GF-5 will use 300-500 ppm of Moly as a friction modifier
*They have gone through the periodic table looking for an alternative to Moly, no solution yet
NOTE: Moly has been known to cause turbo charger deposits when used at high saturation levels
*Both GF-5 and Dexos will use a large amount of organic friction modifiers
*Dexos and GF-5 are moving in opposite directions
*Dexos towards oil robustness, GF-5 towards improved fuel economy
NOTE: GM may be in trouble when CAFÉ standards are reduced
NOTE: It will be a large technological challenge for a product to meet BOTH specs
*How will this affect the installer’s strategy and business model? European Installer model?
*Consumers want extended service intervals, but will they want to pay for it?
*Is there ample Group III base oil supply for both GF-5 and DEXOS demand? Market prices?
*With increased demand and limited supply for Moly, pricing will escalate
__________________


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#1598487 - 09/13/09 03:03 AM Re: New Info on DEXOS [Re: buster]
addyguy Online   content


Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 8307
Loc: Canada
Like Toyota, this move will hurt GM.
_________________________
2002 Chevrolet Cavalier, 2.2 OHV, Auto, 147k miles.
Petro-Canada Supreme 5W-30; Purolator oil filter; Motomaster air filter.

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#1598584 - 09/13/09 08:30 AM Re: New Info on DEXOS [Re: addyguy]
JHZR2 Offline


Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 14361
Loc: Collingswood, NJ
why, becase a more robust spec is offered, which has the potential to reduce lifecycle cost via better protection and exteded drains?

Even if moly adds 20% to the cost of the oil (I doubt that figure), and folks are paying $5/qt for oil... but going double the OCI on an OLM that is proven... it is a net zero game. And a bit of savings may come about because of reduced labor, less filters used, etc.

Robust oils are the name of the game, as engines become more and more power dense, eeking out more from less, etc. That is what the people want... and they get $5 oil as a result.

It is no different than the economy cars that are shod with 17" tires. THat is what people want, so they can't really complain when the replacement is $120/tire instead of $30/tire like on older econo cars... no different than how EVERYBODY now neds a GPS and cellphone to travel anywhere... they need cable TV to be entertained. All of a sudden folks earning $25k/yr need $250/month in "stuff". The people want it seemingly. Sorry.

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#1598590 - 09/13/09 08:36 AM Re: New Info on DEXOS [Re: buster]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 39755
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
You kinda hid the source:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38963

I'm not so sure about some of the statements.

Quote:
GF-5 will use 300-500 ppm of Moly as a friction modifier


I doubt it.

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#1808406 - 03/08/10 10:11 AM Re: New Info on DEXOS [Re: buster]
bepperb Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 2258
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
It'll at least be interesting to see how this affects GM.

At a 8 cents a quart, I'm worried how many companies will buy this license. GM will have to make it a pretty long OCI to make the easter egg hunt to find this oil worthwhile. But if they make it long, the significant number of people who just buy whatever (or jiffy lubes, ma/pa mechanics who've used xxx for years) could cause an issue for GM.

You can mandate some great new oil for long OCI, but this forum shows every day that people's bad habits persist until it causes a problem. And those same people have no problem complaining vocally even when they are at fault.

I'd rather see GM adopt shorter-than-Dexos but longer than current factory oci on SN than this licensing program that seems more like a revenue attempt than an honest to goodness attempt to help consumers. But all the cards aren't on the table yet.


Edited by bepperb (03/08/10 10:12 AM)
_________________________
2004 Highlander 2.4l 2AZFE
2006 Accord 2.4l K24A8
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#1808425 - 03/08/10 10:26 AM Re: New Info on DEXOS [Re: bepperb]
rclint Offline


Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 688
Loc: Georgia
I wonder if this is the oil that Toyota just released and everyone is so hot after ? By the same oil, I mean the same type of oil 0w-20 that is the rave in so many post for being such a good buy ?

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#1808448 - 03/08/10 10:45 AM Re: New Info on DEXOS [Re: rclint]
bepperb Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 2258
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Dexos isn't an oil. It's a specification (like API SM) that GM produces and validates and then allows them to put a sticker/image on the bottle.

Could Toyota 0w-20 pass the Dexos spec? Maybe. Will Toyota pay GM 8 cents a quart to put a GM logo on their bottle? Maybe not!


Edited by bepperb (03/08/10 10:46 AM)
_________________________
2004 Highlander 2.4l 2AZFE
2006 Accord 2.4l K24A8
1993 Kawi EX 500

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#1808596 - 03/08/10 12:10 PM Re: New Info on DEXOS [Re: bepperb]
Jehartley Offline


Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 140
Loc: Arkansas
So, I am assuming that GM owner's manuals will now state that, along with the current certifications the oil has to meet, that an oil with the Dexos approval has to be used as well?

I wonder what that will mean for current GM vehicles?


Edited by Jehartley (03/08/10 12:10 PM)
_________________________
2009 GMC Sierra Ext Cab 4.8 V8
Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 / AC Delco
Following the OLM

2010 Chevy Camaro V6
Amsoil ASL 5w 30/ Wix Filter
Following the OLM

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