Recent Topics
2009 Subaru STI Oil Recommendation
by after5hock
49 minutes 20 seconds ago
soft varnish/sludge on oil fill baffle Toy 2GR-FE
by friendly_jacek
Yesterday at 11:06 PM
F1 - 2014 United States Grand Prix
by gofast182
Yesterday at 10:48 PM
Humor: Walmart Product Review
by Apollo14
Yesterday at 10:04 PM
Mobil Delvac 5w-40 OK for 2009 Audi Q7 TDI?
by teedoff00
Yesterday at 10:02 PM
Honda S2000 Pennzoil Ultra 5,000 miles
by Bror Jace
Yesterday at 09:52 PM
Time for hot vs cold old to drain into pan
by Apollo14
Yesterday at 09:19 PM
Noco Genius Boost - my video test - battery @ 9.9v
by 901Memphis
Yesterday at 09:13 PM
Bought my first firearm today
by Nick R
Yesterday at 09:01 PM
Built a few AR-15 A3's this weekend...
by 2010_FX4
Yesterday at 08:57 PM
New Briggs oiling schedule
by Tom_T
Yesterday at 08:52 PM
Thinking about a new 1.0L Ecoboost Fiesta
by Burt
Yesterday at 08:44 PM
Newest Members
after5hock, Rxman01, 1969monark, flstang65, PhxAZ
51699 Registered Users
Who's Online
49 registered (01_celica_gt, Bandito440, bdcardinal, 3800Series, 901Memphis, after5hock, 3 invisible), 843 Guests and 220 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51699 Members
64 Forums
221215 Topics
3497587 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Page 2 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#966753 - 08/16/07 10:35 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: Kestas]
JohnBlazeLTZ Offline


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Kenosha, WI
Quote:

Quote:

... everytime my current rad. gets fixed the lead that its fixed with gets eaten away from the same exact spot...every single time...


Perhaps you can ask the shop to fix the radiator with lead-free solder.




Yes...I am going to if they have some...its just antoher attempt to try something else! When they fixed it before they just did it from the outside...this time he wants to go in from the inside and fix it from the inside out.

Top
#966754 - 08/16/07 10:40 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: JohnBlazeLTZ]
JohnBlazeLTZ Offline


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Kenosha, WI
Oh...and one last thing...the tanks that he used are from the 1980's. He could not find a large core brass copper tanks for me. They aren't made anymore...so he had to get used tanks in good condition and use them on a 3 core.

I had the extra wide 2 core aluminum from Howe Racing Radiators in MI. Man that rad was bad ----...I loved it...but it too took a duece on me. The owner was really P'd off at me becasue I thought the rad. was junk...turns out I was the moron who probably put the wrong kind of fluid in it! ----...I feel bad because that Howe Rad was pretty awesome. I loved and it looked so nice.

Top
#966755 - 08/17/07 07:48 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: JohnBlazeLTZ]
onion Offline


Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 2097
Loc: kansastan
"Traditional Green" is hard to come by these days... and hard to even define exactly what "traditional green" IS anymore. As a former John Deere mechanic, I was under the impression that I've been running 'traditional green' John Deere coolant in all my vehicles for years- turns out it's G05... which has essentially a mix of Dexcool-type (OAT) additives and a also some silicate (like the old stuff used). For what it's worth, I've seen this coolant used in Deere tractors for many, many years without problems- including LOTS of old tractors with copper/brass/lead solder radiators. Based on that, I wouldn't hesitate to use G05 in your application.

I'm going to disagree with a previous poster about isolating your radiator- that's a bad idea. I'd suggest running a ground wire from the frame or radiator support to the radiator- this prevents electralysis. Almost all heavy equipment- especially with brass radiators- uses a ground wire... and we're talking about equipment that's designed to last 1,000,000 miles and/or 10,000+ hours.
_________________________
The invisible and the imaginary look exactly the same.

Top
#966756 - 08/17/07 07:52 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: onion]
onion Offline


Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 2097
Loc: kansastan
Another alternative for readily available "traditional green" antifreeze is Texaco Heavy Duty antifreeze. It's green... but it's low silicate- and it's NOT dexcool. Uses SCA additives- primarily in heavy truck applications... most of which had brass radiators until the past few years. I've seen this antifreeze at Advance Auto Parts.
_________________________
The invisible and the imaginary look exactly the same.

Top
#966757 - 08/17/07 09:47 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: onion]
GMGuy Offline


Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 572
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I've got the referenced articles open in other windows to read shortly, but the lead solder incompatability would certainly explain my troubles as I've always used a roll of plumbing solder to redo my leak areas.

The reason I brought up the isolators is they are there from the factory, and have tradionally always isolated the radiator from surrounding metal. If there was a rouge ground due to metal contact I was thinking it may be a contributing factor.
Incidently, ford's tsb on cooling system electrolysis makes it clear that you should _not_ ground your heater core (and by extension, I would consider the radiator included as its hooked up the same way.) or you will have more severe problems. I always thought the opposite, but I figure a tsb has some iota of solid tech behind it. Ford tsb 6-21-19 http://modularfords.com/forums/f154/tsb-06-21-19-heater-core-68112.html

The pertinent bit:
Quote:

CAUTION:DO NOT GROUND HEATER CORE. IF THE HEATER CORE IS GROUNDED, YOU HAVE PROVIDED THE ELECTROLOSIS A PATH THROUGH THE HEATER CORE. THIS WOULD CAUSE THE HEATER CORE TO BECOME AN ANODE OR RECEIVER AND IT WOULD PROMOTE THE ELECTROLOSIS, OR ANY STRAY VOLTAGE TO USE THE COOLANT AS THE GROUND PATH.




Alex.
_________________________
Status boxes belong in the header or footer. Not the side.

Top
#966758 - 08/18/07 01:33 AM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: GMGuy]
onion Offline


Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 2097
Loc: kansastan
That's an interesting TSB... don't know what to make of it in light of another Ford TSB posted here:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=3#Post887590

The interesting part is this:
Quote:

4. If there is still excessive voltage present in the coolant, check the engine to body/battery grounds. Also, verify proper grounding of any aftermarket electrical/electronic equipment which has been installed into the vehicle. Improperly grounded electrical devices can cause electrolysis to occur.
5. If the condition is still present after the grounds have been checked, it may be necessary to add extra grounds to the heater core and engine. A hose clamp can be used to secure a 16 AWG stranded copper wire to the heater core inlet tube. The other end should be secured to an EXISTING FASTENER on the body sheet metal. Extra grounds to the engine should be attached between EXISTING FASTENERS on the engine and body sheet metal. Verify continuity of any added grounds to the negative battery terminal.




Don't know what to make of this apparent contradiction from Ford engineers. I'm just speaking from my experience of having dealt with lots of radiator ground wires over the years. Makes sense to me that it would reduce voltage differential between cooling system components, and therefore reduce electralysis.
_________________________
The invisible and the imaginary look exactly the same.

Top
#966759 - 08/18/07 08:16 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: onion]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 10845
Loc: The Motor City
You're right, the two are contradictory. With what I understand about electrolysis, you need two different metals electrically coupled in the presence of an electrolyte for electrolysis to occur. Grounding the heater core (or radiator core) will provide this undesirable coupling. It will be coupled to the cast iron engine block and make brass or aluminum the anode (the metal that wastes away). This is assuming the the heater core and radiator core are completely isolated via rubber hoses and rubber mounts. (Though I'm curious about the metal transmission cooler line). So, I'm in favor of the first tsb presented by GMguy.

The radiator and heater can still corrode without bulk electrolysis from simple dissolution if pH of the coolant is wrong or has drifted for the application.

Top
#966760 - 08/18/07 09:22 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: Kestas]
GMGuy Offline


Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 572
Loc: Ontario, Canada
The older TSB is 01156, Ford flip flopped on the issue and published 6-21-19 due to continued heater core failures.

Partial rambling alert;
I read the links presented yesterday, and comparing Zerex G05 and Classic specs, I'd almost have to say G05 provides better protection for old systems than classic. There are a few contradictory points when you 1. read valvolines statements as to why classic is prefered for classics. 2. read the specs. G05 contains a hair MORE Silicates than classic. 3. The wear tests are themselves slightly contradictory (theres two for each coolant). One coolant has less solder erosion in one tests, more in the other. Of course, thats my interpretation of what I'm reading.
Walking away, I am inclined to say G05 would be THE coolant to purchase instead of classic green for an old copper/brass system. Or in my case, a mix of copper, brass and aluminum in a couple of my cars. (various combinations of head/block/heater core/rad)
The other positive to the G05 I can say is that I know when I buy it what I am getting. The only 'classic green' I can find are house brands. How can I be sure it really is classic and not some re-badged all-makes formula? Or for that matter, sufficiently doped to be benificial. Given the failures I've had, I'd say the house brand greens are not up to snuff and I can't do any worse by changing to G05 next time I have to crack open the cooling system.

Alex.
_________________________
Status boxes belong in the header or footer. Not the side.

Top
#966761 - 08/18/07 11:30 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: GMGuy]
doitmyself Offline


Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4742
Loc: MI
Gm Guy,

Maybe coolants are like oil, in that a $20 VOA comparison does not show the "total package" effects. Maybe there is more to it than just the silicate level. Maybe there is a synergistic effect between the phosphates/silicates in traditional coolant that matters.

Texaco/Havoline also recommends traditional green in older vehicles:

http://www.texaco.com/yourcar/havolinecoolants/findRightCoolant.asp

"If you have a late-model or diesel-powered vehicle which has always run the "green stuff," then Texaco's Anti-Freeze Coolant is the right choice. It is a low-silicate, all-purpose formula designed for use in both automotive engines and heavy-duty diesel engines, especially those containing aluminum alloys."

This interesting 1999 article eludes to several problems when switching from "green" to Dex Cool like the original poster did here:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/3837/dexcool.html

First, the cooling systems -on all older cars have at one time contained traditional phosphate/silicate blends of antifreeze. Thus silicate and phosphate residuals will remain in the cooling systems and continue to break away from surfaces, crevices, and tight areas, entering the new DEX-COOL coolant solution. DEX-COOL is not designed to properly disperse or keep these materials in solution. Therefore, they will seek and adhere to the hottest surfaces within the cooling system, forming scales and deposits. Since the hottest areas are the locations where the greatest amount Of heat transfer takes place, they are the worst spots to have deposits that impede heat transfer. The result is a dramatic affect on cooling system efficiency and performance. Also since corrosion is most likely to occur under deposits, using DEX-COOL could affect long-term corrosion prevention.

The second problem with using DEX-COOL in infrequently driven vehicles, according to Ross, concerns the completely organic character Of carboxylates in DEX-COOL which make them very good long-life corrosion inhibitors. Unfortunately, being organic, they are consumed by some types of bacteria. The bacteria feeds off the carboxylates, using them as a nutrient, so the corrosion protection that they offer disappears and creates, a potentially serious corrosion problem.

Finally, in some cooling systems, DEX-COOL may interact with internal materials. For this reason, a recent service bulletin from GM specifically states, “DEX-COOL may be used in 1994 and later Buick models for improved water pump seal performance. It should not be used in 1993 or earlier vehicles because its chemical ingredients interact with internal copper-soldered joints.”

IN short, two major coolant manufacturers still recommend traditional green over G05 for older vehicles.

Top
#966762 - 08/20/07 05:26 AM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: doitmyself]
GMGuy Offline


Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 572
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Sure, cloudy the waters some more =-) Because as far as I was concerned G05 is not the same as Dex-Cool.
I was under the impression G05, for lack of better wording, is a hybrid of classic green, and dex-cool a completely different animal all together.

Alex.
_________________________
Status boxes belong in the header or footer. Not the side.

Top
#966763 - 08/20/07 05:32 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: GMGuy]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 10845
Loc: The Motor City
Though the G05 may contain more silicates, the pH is different. I measured the pH of my cooling systems. The ones with traditional green were 9.8, 10.1. The one with G05 is 7.5. I'm curious how the pH plays out in protecting leaded joints.

Top
#966764 - 08/20/07 06:59 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: JohnBlazeLTZ]
brianl703 Offline


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 10487
Loc: Manassas, VA
Quote:


I am sorry about the conflict...I did not ask for that...but it was thrust upon me.




FYI, that particular user has a history of that type of behavior here.

As far as your radiator problem, have you used a multimeter to check for a voltage in the coolant? You'd want to place one probe in the radiator coolant and the other probe on the battery negative terminal. I think any reading over .5 volts DC is cause for concern.

Top
#966765 - 08/20/07 09:57 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: brianl703]
brianl703 Offline


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 10487
Loc: Manassas, VA
I should mention also that the voltage test should be done with the engine running and every possible electrical device turned on..headlights, AC, defroster, stereo, etc.

As far as Ford flip-flopping on grounding the heater core, I could see where that would be a bad idea IF the engine to body grounds were poor. Then there WOULD be a current flow through the coolant to the heater core which would chew it up in a hurry.

In the second TSB, however, they suggest adding grounds to both the engine and the heater core. This would bring the heater core to the same electrical potential as the engine.

See, there are two issues here:

Issue #1:

A potential difference between two components of the cooling system due to a bad ground. For example, a multimeter placed between the engine and the radiator might show a voltage difference when the engine is running. This is a bad ground in action.

(By the way..where is your electric cooling fan grounded?)

Issue #2:

Electrolysis due to different metals being used in the cooling system.

I think the issue here is #1. Issue #2 is always going to happen and that's why the coolant is designed to handle it and why we change coolant before it wears out.

But coolant is NOT designed to handle problem #1. Any stray current flowing through the cooling system due to a bad ground is going to cause a lot of damage really quickly.

Top
#966766 - 08/20/07 10:04 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: GMGuy]
brianl703 Offline


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 10487
Loc: Manassas, VA
Quote:

CAUTION:DO NOT GROUND HEATER CORE. IF THE HEATER CORE IS GROUNDED, YOU HAVE PROVIDED THE ELECTROLOSIS A PATH THROUGH THE HEATER CORE. THIS WOULD CAUSE THE HEATER CORE TO BECOME AN ANODE OR RECEIVER




I don't think that's correct. It would be a cathode, not an anode.

Quote:

A cathode is an electrode through which (positive) electric current flows out of a polarized electrical device. Mnemonic: CCD (Cathode Current Departs).



Top
#966767 - 08/20/07 10:10 PM Re: Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help [Re: brianl703]
brianl703 Offline


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 10487
Loc: Manassas, VA
And, furthermore, it would appear that grounding the heater core might actually help protect it, "cathodic protection".

Of course whatever other component in the cooling system that is more positive than the heater core is going to suffer corrosion since it will be an anode.

Top
Page 2 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >