Recent Topics
Cartridge filters: OEM vs. Aftermarket
by dlundblad
1 minute 7 seconds ago
New Laptop: Toshiba vs. HP
by Tdbo
Today at 06:35 PM
Dale Armstrong RIP
by 02SE
Today at 06:30 PM
getting hosed by the water company
by ram_man
Today at 06:29 PM
2AZ-FE head bolt removal socket
by 01_celica_gt
Today at 05:55 PM
Sealants/Syn Waxes with good UV protection
by Robenstein
Today at 05:02 PM
Amusing TPMS issue
by OVERKILL
Today at 04:04 PM
$10 off all $50 gas cards at Publix
by LT4 Vette
Today at 03:56 PM
Cyber Monday good for computer prices
by oilboy123
Today at 03:29 PM
AAARRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!

by Oldmoparguy1
Today at 03:01 PM
Ariens Snowblower Issue
by My442
Today at 02:31 PM
going back to green.
by chaindrive
Today at 02:29 PM
Newest Members
lobstah24, MilanV607, suspekt, NPA747, hgb
52023 Registered Users
Who's Online
102 registered (asand1, 01_celica_gt, Atlantis, aquariuscsm, Astro14, 11 invisible), 1352 Guests and 157 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
52023 Members
66 Forums
222727 Topics
3526080 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#895797 - 05/08/07 04:15 AM What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam 88
la9 Offline


Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Ohio
I have a Harley Twin Cam 88 and it needs an oil change and wondered if there was some recommendations.

I'm leaning toward synthetic but want to stay away from SM rated oil.

I'd use diesel oil but it isn't 20w50 and I'd like to stick to that weight.

I see a guy on this board likes Havoline Dino so I'm thinking about that.

Top
#895798 - 05/08/07 05:47 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam 88 [Re: la9]
Titan Offline


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 2329
Loc: Morgan, UT
If I had that engine, I'd run AmSoil 20-50 motorcycle oil. Just because of how well the AmSoil holds up on UOA's that I've seen, plus how well it does in my bike. I have no association with AmSoil, and think some of people don't like the products due to some of the knuckleheads that promote it and call themselves "dealers". There are only a couple of AmSoil Dealers that I trust, and they are on BITOG. All that said, I still wouldn't use it if I didn't like the way it performed in my bikes. AND, if I didn't have some poor performers in other Motorcycle oils compared to the AmSoil, I wouldn't recommend AmSoil. It really is good stuff.
_________________________
The terms "dino,synthetic,blend,conventional" are marketing derived; not scientific.

Top
#895799 - 05/08/07 06:45 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Titan]
TimVipond Offline


Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 1115
Loc: Sugar Land, TX
Take a look at this report http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf and pick the one you like best.
_________________________
To purchase Amsoil products, please contact one of the BITOG Amsoil Site Sponsors: Pablo, or Gary Allan.

Top
#895800 - 05/08/07 06:51 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: TimVipond]
la9 Offline


Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Ohio
The Castrol Syntec 20w50 looks pretty good from the label

Contains increased zinc levels for extra engine wear prevention.Provides superior oil film strength and extreme high temperature protection. API SL, SJ, SH, CF or CD is recommended. Porsche approved

Top
#895801 - 05/08/07 09:27 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: la9]
TimVipond Offline


Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 1115
Loc: Sugar Land, TX
The 2 Castrol 20W50 tested in my above link tested last and second last overall out of 16 SAE 50 motorcycle oils. If they use similar base stocks and additives in Castrol Syntec, I would have a hard time believing it would test any better and work better in a motorcycle engine than Castrol's motorcycle specific oil. I place more weight on comparative testing than words on a label, but to each their own.
_________________________
To purchase Amsoil products, please contact one of the BITOG Amsoil Site Sponsors: Pablo, or Gary Allan.

Top
#895802 - 05/08/07 10:18 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam 88 [Re: Titan]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10490
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Quote:

If I had that engine, I'd run AmSoil 20-50 motorcycle oil.



X2..amsoil's MCV is good stuff or M1's MC oil is a winner too IMO....
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

Top
#895803 - 05/09/07 05:45 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam 88 [Re: daman]
warchildindy Offline


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 110
Loc: indiana, usa
I like either Amsoil or the Mobil 1 v-twin 20w-50 formulations. I have used them both in my HD and Victory v-twins (both motor and transmission) with great results over the oem oils. That is my opinion.

Top
#895804 - 05/09/07 07:57 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam 88 [Re: warchildindy]
Fatboymoe Offline


Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 469
Loc: Stockton, Ca.
Redline 20-50 or 20-60 has done me good in a highly modified TC.
_________________________
2012 Ford F-150 Lariat, 3.5L Eco-Boost
2003 HD FatBoy
2014 Honda Accord EX-L 2.4

Top
#895805 - 05/09/07 02:49 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam 88 [Re: Fatboymoe]
la9 Offline


Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Ohio
I looked at oil last night and everything has the SM rating on it and I'd like to stay away from SM oil. Even the Castrol I quoted above from their website has changed and didn't have the same ratings. Mobil 1 had the same thing.

Top
#895806 - 05/09/07 05:04 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam 88 [Re: la9]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10490
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
If it's MC oil and JASCO MA rated your good to go..
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

Top
#895807 - 05/09/07 05:45 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam 88 [Re: daman]
la9 Offline


Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Ohio
Was not planning on using a MC oil because everything I read says it is just overpriced auto oil.

Top
#895808 - 05/09/07 05:59 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam 88 [Re: la9]
la9 Offline


Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Ohio
Also having problem finding anyone that has motorcycle oil in my area.

Top
#895809 - 05/10/07 01:18 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam 88 [Re: la9]
la9 Offline


Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Ohio
I went ahead and bought the Harley oil.

Despite everyone claiming it is cheap and not worth the money, everything I read points out that it is more than adequate for the job.

Everything I can find seems to be SM rated and I'm not putting that in my engine.

In the future I might try Amsoil, Redline, Valvoline VR1 or Rotella. I wish the Rotella was thicker than 15w40 or I probably would have went with that this time.

Top
#895810 - 05/10/07 08:43 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam 88 [Re: la9]
cfromc Offline


Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 734
Loc: Illinois
I used Amsoil Racing 20W-50 last year and had an extremely good UOA (Cu was slightly high but due to break-in of engine). Was impressed except a little noisy. I used Amsoil M/C oil before the new blend came out and that was good and less noisy than the racing oil. I'm using Redline now and even less noise and my idle speed actually went up slightly (vs. the Amsoil TRO). I used the Harley stuff (several times) in my Sporty in the past and the engine did not blow up, but, for the price and the frequency that I change oil (once per year) I just can't see spending $4 for a product when I can get something that is so far advanced for $3 more. The difference per OCI is about $10. I noticed smoother running and cooler engine oil temps with the synthetics. That, to me, alone is worth $10 per year. When I am stuck in traffic for several minutes in the summer, I am glad I have a little extra protection because I know those cylinder heads are HOT.

I guess I am lucky because there is an Amsoil warehouse 5 minutes from my work and there is a Redline dealer 10 minutes away that sells Redline for very good prices. I do have an Amsoil "dealership" but I rarely sell to anyone, I just use it to buy oil for a discount. As you can see though, I think Redline is definitely a good oil and I just want the best for my vehicles, not to sell oil. I use Redline MTL in my primary and I'm using Amsoil in the gear box currently but will be switching to Redline Heavy Shockproof this fall. Mobil products are also good and I've used their MC oil and gear lubes. I've used Royal Purple and was not impressed and I haven't used SYN3 because I just don't think its worth the price.

Top
#895811 - 05/11/07 04:30 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: cfromc]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
How quickly we forget...

But lucky for you guys you've got me here to remind you.

May I call your attention to the four best UOA's on Harleys in the BITOG archives, linked below...

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post714572

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post715108

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post733603

Note that these are all dino oils. If someone can produce a synthetic oil UOA on a Harley with better wear metal counts, I'll congratulate you. (And yes, crunch the numbers so that the wear metal per mile counts are equivalent)... Go to the "search" feature, select Motorcycle UOA's, and type in "Harley" and see what you come up with...

Pay particular attention to the bearing wear accelerated by many of the synthetic oils (look for higher than average copper numbers)... also, watch for evidence of corrosion, allowed by the syns, which will show up as higher than average iron counts.

The Harley dino 20W50 is a decent oil, so you have erred only on the side of caution. Not a bad choice at all, other than it's a 2 dollar oil at 5 to 6 bucks a quart.

The HD oil is made by Citgo. Havoline 20W50 is much better, and should still be SL rated if that's a concern.

Dan

Top
#895812 - 05/11/07 04:44 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46713
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Quote:


Pay particular attention to the bearing wear accelerated by many of the synthetic oils.....also, watch for evidence of corrosion, allowed by the syns,




Sorry - not buying into this. Can you please clearly and concisely present the data? I did a quick search of UOA's and didn't see evidence backing your claim. I agree that you post some good UOA's in your applications using dino. SF's UOA is truly great.

Top
#895813 - 05/11/07 04:49 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10490
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Ahh i still like my Ansoil and M1 MC oil's in my high
revving ATV's, rebuilt my 350cc Warrior ATV last year with
a new top end and had the crank spec'd at my local Yamaha
dealer and every thing was within spec(low wear) and
very clean,really didn't need a fresh'en up but i had
it apart so.

i'm sticking with a full synthetic . $.02
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

Top
#895814 - 05/11/07 07:12 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: daman]
wileyE Offline


Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 1967
Loc: Kitsap, WA
What oil did HD do their durability testing with? anything else is just an experiment, but we all love to experiment, LOL

This was the response from Rotax when discussing oils other than their own and how it related to mag-moss laws.

Top
#895815 - 05/12/07 04:15 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: wileyE]
bmwtechguy Offline


Registered: 06/15/04
Posts: 2526
Loc: South Carolina
I've heard that people have had good results with Schaeffer's 20W-50 blend and 5W-50 full synthetic racing oils in Harley V-twins. Anyone have any experience with either of these 2 oils in motorcycles? I understand that both have moly in their formulation, as does Redline. They have repective HTHS of about 4.55 and 5.08, so these would seems to offer a lot of viscosity protection when things get really hot. Additionally, the technical description on their website specifically recommends these oils for use in air or water-cooled motorcycle engines, including shared sump designs. Has anyone tried these?

Top
#895816 - 05/12/07 04:22 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: wileyE]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
Here are some that I found that show higher than average copper and-or iron numbers...

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post808369

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post772196

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post715054

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post714931

There are a couple of syn UOA's which show average wear, but I couldn't find any which showed extraordinarily low wear numbers, as the dino UOA's I linked in my first post show. Too, even if the syn UOA's were on par with the dino UOA's, you'd have to run the syns 10,000 miles to justify the cost and break even.

I think that synthetic oils perform well in many applications, but from the wear metal numbers I think it's fair to say that they cannot outperform dinos in a Harley V-Twin engine.

Dan

Top
#895817 - 05/12/07 04:32 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
There are also some Harley UOA's still in the gas engine UOA column, from before we had the motorcycle specific category.

For just over 2100 miles, this Mobil 1 20W50 motorcycle oil shows excessive copper: http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post224050

Top
#895818 - 05/12/07 06:24 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8869
Loc: SC
Quote:

How quickly we forget...

But lucky for you guys you've got me here to remind you.

May I call your attention to the four best UOA's on Harleys in the BITOG archives, linked below...

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post714572

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post715108

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post733603

Note that these are all dino oils. If someone can produce a synthetic oil UOA on a Harley with better wear metal counts, I'll congratulate you.





That last UOA you listed is Molakule's synthetic 20w50. (Or it may be a syn blend--I can't remember what he told me. But for sure it's not a straight Group II oil. And even if a blend, Molakule uses Group III and Group IV for his blends.)
_________________________
2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: RLI 5w40 HD Low Ash
2004 Ford Crown Vic: Pennzoil Platinum 5w20

Top
#895819 - 05/12/07 10:55 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: G-MAN]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
I was told it was a group III dino oil, it's not a syn--unless we were to use Castrol's standards. And if we're going that route, Havoline group III dino oils can be called synthetics too.

If it is a group IV oil, then Molakule has figured out how to make it work better than Amsoil or Redline or Mobil 1 or any of the other IV and V syns on the market. But if you'll research the matter, I'm betting this is a group III, even based on the shear to a 40 weight (not a problem as far as the oil's performance).

The major point is that the best UOA's on file here for Harley engines are from dino oils, and not the more expensive group IV and V true synthetic bases.

Top
#895820 - 05/13/07 06:49 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
la9 Offline


Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Ohio
Is it just the Standard Havoline Dino for cars 20w50 ? Have you tried anything latley ? I've read it's a new formula since they started using the deposit shield.

Top
#895821 - 05/14/07 03:56 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: la9]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
I have not investigated the Deposit Shield Havoline 20W50 oils as of yet. We are still finding the older SL forumula around here on the shelves... (And I've also bought two cases of Chevron Supreme 20W50 for a buck twenty-five a quart, which is the same stuff).

If the deposit shield is a concern, you can just go to the high mileage Havoline 20W50 which isn't advertised to have that. Valvoline's Maxlife is another option. Good, thick viscosity in the 20W50 with a healthier ZDDP count. I'm sure it would do very well for you.

Or consider the Valvoline VR1 (see the UOA I posted on my bike using two quarts of 20W50 VR1 and one quart of straight 60 weight VR1)... this stuff is available at Autozone, and probably at Advance as well...

As far as straight wear metal numbers, that VR1 UOA is the best one on file here for a Harley--it's even better than the LC UOA I also linked. The only problem I have with the VR1 is it's 3 bucks a quart... and the Havoline is 2 dollars and does a fine job, as my other UOA's show.

You've got a while now to decide what you're going to do next (until your next oil change is due). Study up on the Havoline with Deposit Shield and see what you can learn. If Havoline has raised the price of that oil (and in all liklihood, they have) then that would make the VR1 Valvoline product look more appealing...

Dan

Top
#895822 - 05/14/07 04:24 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
I found this link at Chevron's site. You've got to open up one of the last Deposit Shield files on the list to get to the specs.

https://www.cbest.chevron.com/msdsServer/controller?module=com.chevron.lubes.msds.bus.BusPDSList

It does not look as though they have reduced ZDDP at all for this forumula. I don't know how much moly they have in that oil, but it's probably around 200 ppm I would think. And that is not an excessive amount at all.

Top
#895823 - 05/14/07 04:27 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
that link isn't working correctly... just click "North America" and type in "Havoline" in the search and you can get to the list that way...

Top
#895824 - 05/15/07 05:08 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
PT1 Offline


Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 5746
Loc: near the mistake
I only run synthetics in my TC88. Way better engine performance IMO much less mechanical noise with M1Vtwin 20w50. HD360 and Syn3 both make the top end of my bike clatter. Amsoils MC oils are excellent as well. I know more than 10 people who use them religiously for over 15 years and log well over 150k on evo's & tc88's with no rebuilds. So, synthetics are the top shelf for my bikes period!
_________________________
Oils well that ends well...

Top
#895825 - 05/15/07 05:20 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: PT1]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10490
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Quote:

I only run synthetics in my TC88. Way better engine performance IMO much less mechanical noise with M1Vtwin 20w50. HD360 and Syn3 both make the top end of my bike clatter. Amsoils MC oils are excellent as well. I know more than 10 people who use them religiously for over 15 years and log well over 150k on evo's & tc88's with no rebuilds. So, synthetics are the top shelf for my bikes period!



Here here
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

Top
#895826 - 06/03/07 02:16 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: daman]
tmf2 Offline


Registered: 09/30/05
Posts: 53
Loc: Montana
Mobil 1 VTwin

Top
#895827 - 06/03/07 03:36 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: tmf2]
gtschulz Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Southgate, MI
Because of the wear problem with the cam tensioners in the TCs I decided that at 42000 miles on them I should have mine changed. The tensioners were a little worn but not in any danger of coming apart and getting into my oil pump. The cams and bearings looked like new and were clean. This is a 2003 electra Glide Classic.

I also decided to do away with the problem and put in S & S 510 gear driven cams. Definate performance improvement!

For all but the first 1000 miles I have used the Amsoil 20w 50 in the engine and change the oil one time a year - in the fall.

Top
#895828 - 06/03/07 04:13 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: gtschulz]
TimVipond Offline


Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 1115
Loc: Sugar Land, TX
Thanks for sharing, qtschulz. Sounds like you put Amsoil to the test and got an A+ at 10,000 mile/1 year oil changes on your Harley, which is the maximum Amsoil recommends without UOA. Are you also using the Amsoil oil and air filters?

Friends of mine have upgraded their engines at similar or higher mileages with the same OCI. They got calls from the mechanic who also noticed the engine looked new.

I do the same with my BMW at 12,000 mile/1 year, whichever occurs first. I put 137,000 miles on it and upgraded to the newer, higher performing model.
_________________________
To purchase Amsoil products, please contact one of the BITOG Amsoil Site Sponsors: Pablo, or Gary Allan.

Top
#895829 - 06/03/07 06:12 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: TimVipond]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
If longevity without overhauling is the measuring stick here... the record on an Evolution engine is over 400,000 miles on HD 360 dino oil. There are at least two such engines which have been documented. And now Dave Willet (who put around 420K on his 1987 Evo) has nearly 300,000 miles on a TC engine (I don't know if he has done cam chain tensioner work)... He's still using dino HD 360 oil at 2500 mile OCI's. American Iron magazine has profiled these motorcycles, and Harley Davidson actually gave Dave Willet the new Twin Cam he is riding now, in even trade for the 1987 Tour Glide with the 420K+ miles on it. (the Tour Glide in now in the Harley Davidson museum in Milwaukee)... The services were all documented at HD dealerships around the country, and the oil was always the HD 360 stuff, some of it was probably the new Citgo forumula, most was probably the Sunoco produced stuff. Both oils work just fine.

So we can't use anecdotal evidence of 100,000+ mile engines to bolster the aptitude of synthetic oil over dino oil. Since we know that a properly serviced HD engine can run over 400,000 miles on dino oil without an overhaul, it should not be surprising that a syn could make that engine run at least 300,000 miles. But since the syns are turning in higher wear metal counts in UOA's... then I don't think any reasonable person should expect their engine to last longer on a syn than on a good dino oil. We can discuss the reasons for the wear metal differences, but we cannot dispute that they are there.

The noises we hear from our Harley Davidson engines are rarely a good indicator as to whether we're hearing a normally performing, happy engine or not. The molecular structure of some oils might ( might ) carry sound a bit better... or even the humidity level in the air can muffle sounds on the day we decide to see whether or not our new oil makes the engine quieter than the old one... the outside temperature has a direct effect on how quickly an engine warms up, and also how hot it runs, which in turn alters the volume and pitch of sounds coming from the engine. A full gas tank can dampen top cylinder noise, whereas an empty or nearly empty tank can echo these sounds...

Wear metal counts in UOA's should be the criterion. And there is where we see that a good dino oil seems pretty hard to equal for a syn--let alone beat.

Dan

Top
#895830 - 06/03/07 06:46 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
TimVipond Offline


Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 1115
Loc: Sugar Land, TX
I can't see why anyone would want to change their Citgo/Chavez/Venezuelan/USA hater/HD oil every 2500 miles when they can use good ol' American Amsoil every 10,000 miles and get the results that qzshulz got at 42,000 miles. I think engine tear downs tell more than UOA's.
_________________________
To purchase Amsoil products, please contact one of the BITOG Amsoil Site Sponsors: Pablo, or Gary Allan.

Top
#895831 - 06/03/07 06:56 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: TimVipond]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8869
Loc: SC
Quote:

I can't see why anyone would want to change their Citgo/Chavez/Venezuelan/USA hater/HD oil every 2500 miles when they can use good ol' American Amsoil every 10,000 miles and get the results that qzshulz got at 42,000 miles. I think engine tear downs tell more than UOA's.




Tim, the point is you don't have to use a synthetic in a HD engine to get phenomenal longevity. These engines may be an ancient design, but it's a sound design. Any quality oil that is changed at reasonable intervals will yield roughly equal longevity.
_________________________
2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: RLI 5w40 HD Low Ash
2004 Ford Crown Vic: Pennzoil Platinum 5w20

Top
#895832 - 06/03/07 07:06 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: G-MAN]
TimVipond Offline


Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 1115
Loc: Sugar Land, TX
I don't think I've ever heard of anyone saying you need to use a synthetic in a HD engine to get phenomemal longetivity. I think what many people say is you can use a group IV/V synthetic oil and change it much less often to achieve phenomenal longetivity. And better gas mileage, lower temperatures, higher temperature engine protection, more performance, etc....
_________________________
To purchase Amsoil products, please contact one of the BITOG Amsoil Site Sponsors: Pablo, or Gary Allan.

Top
#895833 - 06/05/07 12:50 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: TimVipond]
Gene K Offline


Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 3161
Loc: Decatur AL USA
Valvoline VR1 is THE Sleeper Oil for HD....
_________________________
Gene






Top
#895834 - 06/05/07 02:30 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Gene K]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
I have a UOA on VR1 posted here... it is awesome...

The problem with going for 10,000 mile OCI's in a Harley engine (or any other motorcycle engine, for that matter) is that the oil can fuel dilute, and leave you with a compromised oil for many thousands of miles.

How would you like to have been this guy--if he had gone for a long OCI with his synthetic oil: http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...part=1&vc=1


You could sample the oil for a UOA every 2500 miles, but that will cost at least 20 bucks. Whereas an three quarts of a good dino oil will cost only about 7 or 8 dollars.

Also, you'll be leaving that synthetic oil in the engine for more than a year if you are a typical rider... many guys don't ride 10,000 miles in three or four years. It is better to change the oil at least seasonally.

Dan

Top
#895835 - 06/05/07 10:57 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
47HO Offline


Registered: 11/18/02
Posts: 380
Loc: Alabama
I agree on changing the oil at least once a year, the oil maker recommends this. However, there shouldn't be a problem running 10K miles during this time on it either. In today's modern fuel injected bikes, fuel dilution shouldn't be a problem, unless it has been highly modified.

Top
#895836 - 06/06/07 03:22 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: 47HO]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
The V-rod in the UOA I linked was fuel injected, fwiw...

Dan

Top
#895837 - 06/06/07 04:22 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
gtschulz Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Southgate, MI
Yes I use the Amsoil engine oil filter. I run the 20w 50 (MCV) in the engine and primary and 75w 90 gear lube (SVG) in the trans.

I am retired and spend winters in Florida so I do ride year around.

I wonder how many miles you could reach on a Harley engine using HD 360 and OCI's of 10,000 miles before needing a rebuild? fuel tanker man, are you aware of any documented results doing that? That would be a better comparison to Amsoil instead of the 2500 mile OCI, IMHO.

Top
#895838 - 06/06/07 09:41 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: gtschulz]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8869
Loc: SC
Quote:

I wonder how many miles you could reach on a Harley engine using HD 360 and OCI's of 10,000 miles before needing a rebuild? fuel tanker man, are you aware of any documented results doing that? That would be a better comparison to Amsoil instead of the 2500 mile OCI, IMHO.




No, running the 360 5000 miles and the Amsoil 10,000 miles would be a better (and more fair) comparison.
_________________________
2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: RLI 5w40 HD Low Ash
2004 Ford Crown Vic: Pennzoil Platinum 5w20

Top
#895839 - 06/06/07 06:48 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: G-MAN]
gtschulz Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Southgate, MI
Why is that a fair comparison? To be fair shouldn't both oils be tested by the same number of miles in use?

Top
#895840 - 06/06/07 07:23 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: gtschulz]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
I think G-Man is referencing cost, whereas the overpriced HD 360 is about half what the Amsoil product is.

I would suspect that the corrected for mileage wear metal counts on a 5000 mile OCI with the Harley oil versus a 10,000 mile OCI with the Amsoil would be very comparable, and may even favor the dino oil.

If your goal is to avoid doing oil changes, and you can ride pretty much year round (to vent the crank case of moisture accumulation and re-circulate the the oil frequently) then I think your Harley engine would outlive you--even on 10K OCI's with Amsoil or any other good oil. So it's not such a bad plan.

I have done the UOA's using dino oils and have posted them here. There are other Harley UOA's on synthetic oils where the oil was changed in less than 3000 miles... but they still don't look as good as my dino UOA's. The LC UOA (a dino based oil) posted on a Harley at ~2800 miles is every bit as good as my UOA's... so again, the evidence seems to favor dino oils for the best wear metal protection.

The newer dino oils are really good at withstanding extreme heat, and I think that by the time the engine got hot enough to bake a good petroleum oil into a paste the heads would be warped and other serious damage will have resulted. The real world difference in the heat mitigation properties of syn versus dino seem negligible. I know guys who have the temperature gauges on their oil tanks and they aren't noticing any difference between Syn3 and dino oil.

I will offer the board a challenge: Run your synthetic oil of choice for 4000 miles, or even 5000 miles. Get a UOA from Blackstone. Then drain the oil well and re-fill with a quality dino oil, such as Havoline, or as has been mentioned here, Valvoline VR1 20W50. Run that oil for the same number of miles, and get Blackstone to do a UOA.

If the wear metal counts are better on the synthetic oil UOA, I will send a Paypal payment of 40 dollars to the testing individual to cover the cost of the UOA's. Or if the person does not have a Paypal account, I'll send an MO. I'm on record here as affirming this, and my word is good.

Dan

Top
#895841 - 06/06/07 09:38 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
wileyE Offline


Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 1967
Loc: Kitsap, WA
The caveat for amsoil is "or 1 year", even with all their fantastic claims and pdf's and bar graphs it comes back down to "or 1 year". For the guys that REALLY do rack on the big miles on their hogs, which are a VERY small minority, it makes sense that they would want to extend the drain interval right or wrong. IMHO the amsoil would make a good choice for this practice.

But since the huge majority of harleys NEVER see these kind of miles in a year (look at the want ads, go to the shows), it seems kind of a waste to dump a good oil at the end of a year of paddling your feet from bar to bar. Ina typical 1000 mile year 360 would be just as good as amsoil, IMO. Heck most guys sell the things before they'd ever see any supposed benefit from the expensive shop oil anyway?

Top
#895842 - 06/06/07 10:07 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: gtschulz]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8869
Loc: SC
Quote:

Why is that a fair comparison? To be fair shouldn't both oils be tested by the same number of miles in use?




Absolutely not. Amsoil is a fully synthetic PAO-based oil. 360 is not only a conventional, it's made from Group I. You can't expect these two oils to perform similarly for extended drains. The 360 would do fine in the 3K to 5K mile range. The Amsoil should do fine at 10K. Neither oil should be left in the engine for more than one year.

Testing Amsoil and Syn3 out to 10K miles would be a fair comparison.
_________________________
2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: RLI 5w40 HD Low Ash
2004 Ford Crown Vic: Pennzoil Platinum 5w20

Top
#895843 - 06/07/07 12:57 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: wileyE]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
Quote:

The caveat for amsoil is "or 1 year", even with all their fantastic claims and pdf's and bar graphs it comes back down to "or 1 year". For the guys that REALLY do rack on the big miles on their hogs, which are a VERY small minority, it makes sense that they would want to extend the drain interval right or wrong. IMHO the amsoil would make a good choice for this practice.

But since the huge majority of harleys NEVER see these kind of miles in a year (look at the want ads, go to the shows), it seems kind of a waste to dump a good oil at the end of a year of paddling your feet from bar to bar. Ina typical 1000 mile year 360 would be just as good as amsoil, IMO. Heck most guys sell the things before they'd ever see any supposed benefit from the expensive shop oil anyway?






If you have more dollars invested in chrome than you have miles on your odometer... you might be a RUB.

Dan

Top
#895844 - 06/07/07 03:57 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
Dan, SF 20w50 racing oil was more synthetic than ANY of the OTC lubes mentioned. This oil was run in many alcohol burning racing cars with excellent performance.

Exotic and out of the box formulating is an understatement.

RLI BIO SYN would be closest competitor, the majors aren't even close.

I MISS SF.

Top
#895845 - 06/07/07 04:02 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
"I think that synthetic oils perform well in many applications, but from the wear metal numbers I think it's fair to say that they cannot outperform dinos in a Harley V-Twin engine."

Wrong. I don't need to buy a oil analysis from Bklabs and have you reimburse me to know that answer Brother...

Besides it depends on to many other variables.

Sincerely, Terry

Top
#895846 - 06/07/07 05:00 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Terry]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
Then pray tell us how you do know that... Please understand that I'm not saying you don't have the science, I (and likely others) would like to hear your line of reasoning. That is not too much to ask, I wouldn't think--and I do say this with the utmost respect.

We are here to learn...

If we cannot go by the wear metal numbers, what criteria do we use?

Dan

Top
#895847 - 06/08/07 05:30 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
T-Stick Offline


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 206
Loc: PA
I used to be an Amsoil salesman until I learned .... and could no longer in good conscience promote their marketing claims in their literature.

They intially touted the UOA as part of the proof for their ... performance claims in their extended drain promotionals. Now when many people have ready access to a data bank of UOAs for dino oils, and the methodology and equipment for testing has vastly improved the accuracy of the UOA; to Amsoil salesman it is no longer a conclusive measure of wear or quality... How then can you trust them as proof for extended drains OCIs????

Amsoil distributes various kinds of "simulated tests" to allege the superiority of their oil, but data which actually comes from a working internal combustion engine UOA has now become relegated to an ambiguous and speculative source of information status.

Now don't take this all wrong, Amsoil does make excellent quality products, but the truth is ... that in many cases the UOAs show that running a 5k OCI of a quality dino will often yield superior results to a 10k OCI from Amsoil in a "normal application." This makes a person wonder, do we run the more expensive syns in "normal applications"--to extend OCIs or to get superior protection?

If we run the more expensive syns in a 5k OCI, how can we justify the price when we cannot quantify any added protection from a UOA? Are we going to trust the simulated tests over actual engine data?

Severe duty or extreme temp usage is another matter...but that is not what is being discussed here.

Top
#895848 - 06/08/07 05:55 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: T-Stick]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
T-Stick, I think you're right on... and I think we've been subjected to a lot of psycho-babble and pseudo-science for quite some time here.

There is an old adage among the scholarly: "If you can't explain it in layman's terms, you do not understand it."

When the promoters of synthetics have to resort to explaining away wear metal count comparisons, the thinking man begins to wonder. There is a lot of pablum lapping going on in these pages, as well as elsewhere on the 'net.

I would be happy to learn why higher wear metal counts mean more engine protection. And I'm not even saying that there isn't a viable explanation for such a claim.

Just lay it out in sensible, layman's terms and let us ruminate on it a bit. Who knows? Maybe us dino buffs will cross back over--if the case can be clearly made.

Just make it make sense Terry. We're not all that hard to teach.

Dan

Top
#895849 - 06/08/07 12:18 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
wileyE Offline


Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 1967
Loc: Kitsap, WA
One thing I've learned here.
If it's a synthetic oil you like, has a 1 or an A or is made by elves or whatever, the elevated wear #'s are just " cleaning up what the previous oil left behind" and you need to give it a quick change and start again with another run of it. Of course if you buy the same brand flush chemical, and filter, you'll get even better results?

If its an off brand synthetic and it gets higher #'s its "weak" and probably isn;t a real pao or something, LOL.

And if a dino shows good #'s and doesn't even look like it has a "stout" add pack, heck, it must just be a good engine. But you'd still be better off trying to make a long OCI work for you.

As I remember it, Amsoils long oci marketing was primarily aimed at justifying the high cost of the product to the would-be purchaser and prospective downline. Not saying it wasn't capable, just remember that was the pitch. Having dealers in the family I saw plenty of it come out of those 25k mile runs, and it looked awful. Guess they need to buy a bypass system too?

Top
#895850 - 06/08/07 05:03 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: wileyE]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
Wiley, I see these issues haven't gotten by you either.

Let me apologize to the board for the tone of my last post--not for the content--but for the tone... I re-read what I wrote and although I wasn't intending to sound hostile when I wrote it, it does come out that way on review.

We have a really good 10,000 mile OCI on Havoline dino oil here in the automotive UOA forum. To me, this really blurs the distinction between syn and dino even more.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post901394

The above UOA would probably be filed under the "good engine" category. And it is a good engine, but the wear metal numbers from synthetic oils are not substantially different (generally, a bit worse) in the UOA's on file here.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post903919

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post818138

Top
#895851 - 06/08/07 09:45 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
Dan,asked:
"If we cannot go by the wear metal numbers, what criteria do we use?"

Simply put; get a oil analysis report that is properly interpreted by a company or consultant that has the background, experience, and proprietary data to explain or at least aim YOU the non tribologist the right direction. Frankly, most labs do a poor job of interpreting data and do a good job of getting statistics out there to be shared. The line of demarcation between the lubricant maker, labs to measure that lubricant, and even the additive companies that LIMIT what the blender can know chemically is much more broad than you seem to grasp.

Unless you work for a lab, have access to reams of proprietary data from ALL the players, cookie cutter basic UOA is a hamstrung instrument for YOU the consumer to decide chemistry determination conclusions.

I have posted this for 8 years on the internet.

Finally the chemical terms you like to use; "dino,synthetic,blend,conventional" are marketing derived not scientific.

Another point to make on the low cost lubes vs higher cost( thats what you really mean when you say dino vs syn IMHO), is that you don't know enough about the environmental,tune level, mechanical condition, driving style, etc of the referenced UOA's that purport to support you overly simplistic position.

Hope that was simple and laymen enough to get just my POV across.

BTW Dan, I am never offended at honest questions and query. I have nothing to defend as an independent tribologist.

Terry

Top
#895852 - 06/08/07 10:38 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Terry]
T-Stick Offline


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 206
Loc: PA
So if the inference is:
that many labs do not know how to interpret their own data and the data is inconclusive to the average user. This also infers that the average user cannot "know" whether a given oil is actually performing well in an engine as it may only appear to be doing so(because they do not have access to other "tribological" information). Further this means the data bank of UOAs on this site are somewhat like a dumpster load of meaningless statistics to the average reader. The discussions concerning the posted UOAs are so much mumbo-jumbo without access to other interpretative data.

If this position is tenable, then the average user getting a UOA at the average lab is not able to draw safe conclusions about OCIs such as some of the Syn companies promote with the use of their by-pass filtration systems.

The bottom line here then is that the UOAs do not necessarily demonstrate the superiority of synthetics either. Either the whole topic of "demonstrating the superior performance of certain oils" in a given application from a UOA is at an impasse or we are forced to allow someone else in the "know of proprietary information" to draw our conclusions for us.

I for one am always glad to learn something new, but I would not consider allowing someone else to do my thinking for me. While I do respect the knowledge of experts in their field and would gleadly learn from them, I would not change my opinions on the basis of the "mystique of proprietary information."

And finally, I think it is also incredible to think that we cannot safely draw some general conclusions about the quality of certain oils from a large data bank of UOAs on this site when we can select data from the same motor and similar OCIs. Otherwise we do not have the ability to know much of anything from a UOA. Some of the UOAs posted here are conducted in the same vehicle using different oils over a period of time.

The humorous thing about this whole discussion, is that the extended drain syn companies were always big promoters of the UOAs, now when the data bank seems to infer something different from their marketing claims or does not support their thesis, the same criteria which they previously touted takes on a dubious status.

Top
#895853 - 06/08/07 10:58 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: T-Stick]
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
T-Stick, you are taking what I said too far and out of context.I don't think I left enough room for inference. Exactly what many who post over and over here do with incomplete oil analysis knowledge then become accepted as experts because of volume of posts.

Low cost UOA is great for wear determination and how YOUR engine is operating/wearing/ using that chemistry. IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SEEING OR GET A GOOD INTERPRETATION.

Without all that other "stuff" (I posted above and for years now online) YOU cannot properly determine what chemistry is great, average, or poor, especially for the finer chemistry issues masked by ignorance of formulation, additives,engine conditions, etc and on an on. No one is being arrogant or overbearing here. Chemistries of lubes and secrecy are realities of business not a conspiracy.

Americans( in general) seem to think that because they can use an executive summary to read ABOUT IT ( whatever that is ) they can become fluent or experts in IT. In this case UOA is a great tool,( and one small aspect of tribological testing), just don't expect to become an expert in IT at BITOG or on the internet unless you are prepared to learn IT as if it is a chosen profession.

No one is thinking for you Bro.

If I could not speak or read english and you did ( and you are a english expert) would I take one lesson from you and decide I know now that you are tricking me when we both went to the coffee shop and you ordered in english and I did not totally grasp what you said? However, you did order what I had communicated to you even though I did not grasp the order because I did not speak the language. Once I learn english does that mean I can teach it and interpret it, and manipulate it perfectly? Of course not. It takes years to really understand any science or subject well enough to be versed in IT. Add restriction on disclosure and we have the mysterious world of UOA on BITOG!

Terry

Top
#895854 - 06/09/07 01:07 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Terry]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8869
Loc: SC
In a nutshell, I think Terry is saying: "One or a dozen UOAs showing stellar wear numbers from a conventional oil only means that those individual runs of those individual oils in those individual applications produced stellar results. They PROBABLY indicate that future runs of the SAME oil in the SAME applications under the SAME conditions will yield similar results. Their value as a predictor of how these oils would perform in other applications, under different conditions, is nebulous at best."
_________________________
2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: RLI 5w40 HD Low Ash
2004 Ford Crown Vic: Pennzoil Platinum 5w20

Top
#895855 - 06/09/07 01:29 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: G-MAN]
SLM Offline


Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 202
Loc: Or
G-Man makes the best point of all. However, I don't care for the old "your not an expert", I shouldn't learn or that its impossible to learn anything about. Not surprising considering the source.

Top
#895856 - 06/09/07 01:42 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: SLM]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8869
Loc: SC
Quote:

G-Man makes the best point of all. However, I don't care for the old "your not an expert", I shouldn't learn or that its impossible to learn anything about. Not surprising considering the source.




I stand fully behind Terry on this one. The interpretation of used oil samples is an art and a science. He is an expert and I'm not. I defer to his interpretations just as I would defer to a medical doctor who tells me I have a medical problem, even if I happen to feel just fine.
_________________________
2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: RLI 5w40 HD Low Ash
2004 Ford Crown Vic: Pennzoil Platinum 5w20

Top
#895857 - 06/09/07 03:13 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: G-MAN]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
I don't claim to be an expert, I only share my own observations, based on the wealth of UOA's we have here at BITOG. I do believe that petroleum oils have closed the gap on synthetics. I don't really believe there is much difference in performance between the group IV and V and group II+ and III oils anymore. Castrol and now Mobil now call group III oils "synthetics." The distinction is really blurry...

Terry, I appreciate your not getting as aggravated with me as you do have a right to (based on the tone of my previous post)...

But let me ask you this: How much real world difference can one expect to see in engine longevity (we'll stick with the v-twin Harley Davidson engine to stay on topic) between the best synthetic oil on the market, and say, Havoline 20W50 petroleum oil. I realize that this will only be an educated guess on your part, but you're more qualified than any of us to posit such a guess.

Would the synthetic protected engine last 10 percent longer? Or 20 percent? Just hazard a guess, because I'm genuinely curious as to your opinion on this.

Dan

Top
#895858 - 06/09/07 04:23 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Terry]
T-Stick Offline


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 206
Loc: PA
Terry,
I am not trying to question your personal knowledge of lubricants. I'm eager to learn whatever I can from others. I never intended to present myself to be an expert in the field of lubricants (but you don't have to be to sell lubricants, you just hand out to potential buyers all these inconclusive tests which they are not qualified to interpret and hope they are bamboozled by them enough to buy your product ). I'm primarily extrapolating the logic which is prevalent among the synthetic oil marketers in relation to UOAs. They use the UOA data when it suits their marketing purposes for extended drain intervals; but when it goes against their promotionals they say the results are inconclusive. They push their wares with salesman who often have a knowledge of lubricants that is limited to their sales papers. This is not directed at you personally, but against the logic which is often seen here on this board.

Let me use another example:
Amsoil (using them since I was a former saleman for them) references the 4 ball wear test results. This is certainly a simulated test and not an actual test in an internal combustion engine. So basically I can say that if 6 or 8 balls were used (instead of 4) the results might be different. Or unless those exact pressures and metals were duplicated in an engine environment, the test shows nothing of value. So in reality the 4-ball wear test is only an indicator of how well Amsoil does with 4 balls of a certain metallurgy under certain pressures for x amount of time. On the basis of this logic I could call every method of testing inconclusive which they promote. Yet to be honest I would have to admit that it might be a very good indicator that Amsoil has a strong film strength under high presssure whether that level of film strength is a measurable improvement in an engine or not.
Again to all Amsoil dealers i am not disputing the quality of Amsoil's product, as I still use some of them, but rather that the logic they use in their promotionals about their product is applied inconsistently in order to sell it. The same could probably be said for most other lubricant salesmen as well. The idea here was to challenge the basis upon which synthetics can be demonstrated as significantly superior to the "current" dinos (years ago syns were markedly better) in normal applications.

The same holds true of the UOAs. Yes they cannot be extrapolated into broad-brush categorical statements; but most any thinking man can gain a general understanding that a high iron number is not good for an engine and a low iron number is usually a good sign that wear is low. That is not very hard to figure out. So when syns cannot turn in signficantly better iron numbers in the same application, most thinking people would ask the question, how it can be proven that synthetics are superior for that application? This is just basic deductive reasoning without any need for a tribological degree.

Looking at those numbers and trying to determine the whys of those number...well that is where we defer to people such as yourself.

Let me ask you straight out on the other side of the coin, is there any conclusive evidence from your tribological data that you could share openly which can conclusively demonstrate that synthetics offer significantly more protection in a 5k OCI over a good dino in a normal application (naturally aspirated, fairly well-designed engine, moderate climate, normal mix of driving, i.e. the average American driver)?

Top
#895859 - 06/09/07 06:12 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: T-Stick]
Titan Offline


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 2329
Loc: Morgan, UT
T-Stick, I think I know what you are saying; Every test is perfectly designed to show to every respective observer exactly what the observer reports the test to show. This certainly has no inherent special relationship to the "TRUTH", since every observer might interpret the findings differently, and the test may not be of a fashion that sufficiently limits variables, and/or the test may not even be remotely related to anything else. Uh, what was the question again? I was distracted because I dropped my badger. (If you are interested in the dropped badger, visit G-Man's Triumph Rocket thread in this Motorcycle section.)
_________________________
The terms "dino,synthetic,blend,conventional" are marketing derived; not scientific.

Top
#895860 - 06/09/07 07:51 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Titan]
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
SLM, are you serious? I have been providing free,accurate and informative oil analysis data,info, insight ( not just spectro aspect testing) for years at NORIA,BITOG, etc. for free. For everytime someone questioned what and why I was sharing something they eventually come around and realize I was telling the truth. I have mentioned products ( that I am not restricted in doing so) by name and described as best I could why I recommend them.

My primary customers are those who pay very well for our services not the enthusiast or "consumer" level $50 per charge. If you made $50 for a hour of tribological work for customer A but could make $250 in analysis for customer B who would YOU cater to?

T-Stick and Dan, its not about feelings,guesses or hiding anything, I am not offended, I am just tired of posting good solid data that is not understood or worse, miss interpreted.

I continue to share what I can thus far because I care about more informed folk. I am rapidly wearing out with the consumer level work online. It just is not worth the time, effort, and risk to the proprietary well paying consult.

Dan, to answer you question I would use a formula similar to SF20w50 you can see here or a RLI formula ( viscosity appropriate to the engine design, as thin as you can use) in my HD Vtwin for better lubricity,higher viscosity index, resistance to fuels and aromatics damage, better oxidation control, more EFFECTIVE TBN retention over total drain, better heat transfer/even dissipation,improved ring seal by molecular stability because of BOTH highly branched AND highly saturated carbon chains, inherent cleaning capability that only Veg based oils/esters can provide, shear stable viscometrics so the oil you purchased is what the engine sees over the term of use. To name a few. For instance the VI of a HOBS/PAO blend will be nearly 200, when a mineral base oil might be 130 at best. Most in 100 range in ISO 46 fluids. This before additization.

Most of my HD customers run 10w40 range viscos with GRP III/XHVI/GRPIV/GRPV bases because they work better. They are n't at walmart and $2 a qt though. Which wear and cleanliness would you prefer the SF20w50 HD result or the others you see? Now I have customers that CHOOSE a certain mineral based brand like say the Rotella T crowd and if we need longer drains we can use Auto-RX or LC to extend life and lubricity but use analysis to guide.

If proprietary marketing wasn't driving the obscuration of what we are really testing in lubricants YOU all would have the apples to apples testing data you want. Won't happen anytime soon because market is not demanding it. I do think that BITOG and others have raised the awareness level of BOTH the consumer and marketers quite a lot in the past nearly 10 years and I hope I helped with that.

T-Stick Amsoil has tried to separate themselves from the pack for marketing advantage and survival early on. I feel the same way you do about the marketing plan, they market to their dealers not the customer, in fact the customer really is the dealer network. Bless the Amsoil Dealers because most are honest folk who like the product but most are underpaid for the amount of effort they place into the program. When we stopped our Fleet Diesel ( mostly) maintenance business years ago I stopped selling Amsoil and turned over our customer base to my little Brother who sells Amsoil nominally now. This board has the best Amsoil Dealers I have ever met, and I mean that. They really care but they still sell Amsoil.

TITAN - Thats marketing and selling. You put a ribbon on a pig and focus the customer of the ribbon, not the stinky porker wearing it! Statistics can lie and liars using statistics is true. Reality is,the more light we shed on all products the better informed you are. Web discussion boards by design allow too many people with too little knowledge about lubes post their ideas and the result without professional guidance is that you confuse.

For those that believe you can know and do all, next time you take a airline flight tell the Captain you took 50 hours of flying lessons and that you want to land and takeoff yourself. Let me know how that works for ya!

Terry

Top
#895861 - 06/09/07 08:07 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Terry]
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
Dan, if you use a product like I describe above vs a conventional lubricant cleanliness and wear control would be at least 50% better if not doubled. Meaning the frame will fall apart before the oiled components seeing the BIOSYN oils would.

NOW if you change anything or have a defective part etc then we just ruined that benefit.

I prefer to use optimized fluids because I see this stuff all day and can't stand the idea of using second best if I can afford and access #1.

SURE! Off the shelf oils marketed as "syns" aren't always the best lubricant.

YES! And I have stated this many times hydrocracking/highly refined mineral oils closed the gap between what a SYN was 20 years ago to what many SYN are today.

We haven't even scratched the surface on additive chemistries that are used in all bases. Schaeffers and LE for years proved that their lubes could control wear as well as many off the shelf syns,just not as long because oxidation and thermal stability were not as good.

Terry

Top
#895862 - 06/09/07 08:14 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Terry]
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
T-Stick, yes, take a look at the BIOSYN product wear control values for the Audi RS4 program we are working currently.

Wear control was incredibly better using the BIOSYN over the required and approved "synthetic" Audi 502 oils. Same vis. 5w40.

That is a base oil difference AND add pack difference. Even Motul was skunked using our cooperative effort with RLI because fuels and high RPM were killing the oil in 5000 miles or less.

I tested GRP II + base oils formulas and they provided excellent wear control but could not hold up to the fuel and resulting deposits formation WITHOUT adding LC or RX to "trick" them.

Top
#895863 - 06/09/07 09:13 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Terry]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4547
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
Terry, I really appreciate all the great info you gave in this thread!
_________________________
2003 VW GTI 1.8T 20th Anniversary Edition
2015 Dodge Challenger SXT - Super Track Pak

Top
#895864 - 06/09/07 09:52 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Terry]
SLM Offline


Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 202
Loc: Or
Quote:

SLM, are you serious? I have been providing free,accurate and informative oil analysis data,info, insight ( not just spectro aspect testing) for years at NORIA,BITOG, etc. for free. For everytime someone questioned what and why I was sharing something they eventually come around and realize I was telling the truth. I have mentioned products ( that I am not restricted in doing so) by name and described as best I could why I recommend them.

My primary customers are those who pay very well for our services not the enthusiast or "consumer" level $50 per charge. If you made $50 for a hour of tribological work for customer A but could make $250 in analysis for customer B who would YOU cater to?




I apologize if you think I was calling your services and advice into question. This was not my intent. I'm sure you provide excellent service and advice. If I was in your shoes I would be taking care of my customers as well.

However you made my point exactly in my last post. The day I pay for $250 for an oil analysis, that warm place will be freezing over. However your making money at it and thats impressive. If I ever pop for a UOA, I will analyze as best I can, and whether I learn something or not, I imagine my bikes and cars will be running fine, whatever the oil I use.

Top
#895865 - 06/09/07 04:19 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Terry]
Titan Offline


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 2329
Loc: Morgan, UT
"TITAN - Thats marketing and selling. You put a ribbon on a pig and focus the customer of the ribbon, not the stinky porker wearing it! Statistics can lie and liars using statistics is true. Reality is,the more light we shed on all products the better informed you are. Web discussion boards by design allow too many people with too little knowledge about lubes post their ideas and the result without professional guidance is that you confuse. "

Wow, that quote is too long to use as my signature line, so, I'll have to keep using my current one...which is another quote of yours that I love. I don't have your name after my signature line, only because it would make it too long. Thanks for all you do for "the cause".
_________________________
The terms "dino,synthetic,blend,conventional" are marketing derived; not scientific.

Top
#895866 - 06/09/07 04:33 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Titan]
Titan Offline


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 2329
Loc: Morgan, UT
Terry, I think it's very interesting that 10-40 is thick enough for an air-cooled engine. I keep trying to tell people that thinner is better, but, when people see a new 60 weight, they seem to want to move that direction from the 20-50, rather than move toward the 40 weights. My particular engine (2053 cc water-cooled V-twin) specs a 10-40, but, I found I have to add about half 20-50 to it in order to get the straight-cut transmission to operate smoothly enough. In this case, the shared-sump isn't an ideal set-up, in that what's best for this transmission isn't what's best for the engine. Harley's arrangement is better from that standpoint! Thanks again for participating in BITOG...if you didn't, I might come here for Pablo's honesty, UnDummy's knowledge of transmissions, perhap's G-Man's enthusiasm for his new motorcycle, and some good work on oil filters, but, much of the rest of it is, well, like any other internet forum...
_________________________
The terms "dino,synthetic,blend,conventional" are marketing derived; not scientific.

Top
#895867 - 06/09/07 05:42 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Titan]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
"Most of my HD customers run 10w40 range viscos with GRP III/XHVI/GRPIV/GRPV bases because they work better. They aren't at walmart and $2 a qt though."

Maybe herein lies the reason that Havoline 20W50 has turned in some of the best UOA's on HD engines posted here--because Havoline 20W50 shears to a 40 weight oil, probably fairly early in the OCI. And even the Valvoline VR1 UOA, where I used two quarts of 20W50 and one quart of straight 60 weight sheared to a 40 in about 2800 miles... but the wear metal count was awesome.

And this LC Harley UOA, which is awesome (and this oil is MOSTLY petroleum, correct me if I'm wrong)... http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post731163
this LC oil also sheared to a 40 weight! Is this the key here? Could the shear resistant 50's actually be a negative? Food for thought. I'll have to punch all of this into my psuedo-biologial computer and see what comes out.

I might get brave and do a run of Rotella 15W40 and see if it stays a 40 weight for 2500 miles or so. It could be that the 40 weight in Rotella would protect best right from the beginning, whereas the 20W50 has to shear to a 40 before it really begins to work well... yes... this looks like a ball to grab up and run with... and I'll be crossing that goal line by the end of this thread and ain't nobody gonna stop me... he's at the 40, the 30, the 20... a second or two more and I'll be dancin' in the endzone...

Terry likes how we do this. NOT! But Terry, you inspired me, so you can't blame this all on me.

Forty weight... forty weight... I'm learnin' I think... the best HD UOA's on the board here are on oils which sheared to forty weights... coincidence? Not if I'm understanding Terry correctly... forty weight...

Terry, thank you for your time here, you've been a gentleman.

I do think that the typical Blackstone twenty dollar UOA is better than no UOA at all (perhaps you'd agree, perhaps you'd not agree)... so I will continue to check my oil's condition every few thousand miles (every third drain or so) to make sure that wear metals are staying low.

One last question, Terry, if you have time to answer: If the wear metal counts in my Blackstone UOAs continue to stay in the low single digits for 2500 mile OCI's, is it fair to say that the engine is not wearing abnormally, and that the oil is (at least for that particular drain) doing a good job?

I hope the answer to that question is yes, because that's really as much as I have to go on...

Dan

Top
#895868 - 06/09/07 06:43 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8869
Loc: SC
Quote:

And this LC Harley UOA, which is awesome (and this oil is MOSTLY petroleum, correct me if I'm wrong)...




You are wrong. Why do you keep insisting that Molakule's SF 20w50 V-Twin oil is mostly petroleum. The SF 20w50 is a vegetable ester based oil just like RLI's oils. Did you not read the following that Terry wrote:

Quote:

Dan, to answer you question I would use a formula similar to SF20w50 you can see here or a RLI formula ( viscosity appropriate to the engine design, as thin as you can use) in my HD Vtwin for better lubricity,higher viscosity index, resistance to fuels and aromatics damage, better oxidation control, more EFFECTIVE TBN retention over total drain, better heat transfer/even dissipation,improved ring seal by molecular stability because of BOTH highly branched AND highly saturated carbon chains, inherent cleaning capability that only Veg based oils/esters can provide, shear stable viscometrics so the oil you purchased is what the engine sees over the term of use. To name a few. For instance the VI of a HOBS/PAO blend will be nearly 200, when a mineral base oil might be 130 at best. Most in 100 range in ISO 46 fluids. This before additization.


_________________________
2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: RLI 5w40 HD Low Ash
2004 Ford Crown Vic: Pennzoil Platinum 5w20

Top
#895869 - 06/09/07 09:31 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: G-MAN]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
Then how did it shear to a 40 weight? I thought these oils were shear resistant.

Then Terry has said this: "Dan, SF 20w50 racing oil was more synthetic than ANY of the OTC lubes mentioned."

By "more synthetic" I thought it was being implied that this oil does have a significant petroleum base. If it was 100% syn, I think Terry would have said as much. Let's let him clarify that, if he will...

In any event, it sheared a grade, which is something we don't generally see esters do. Or am I wrong again?

Dan

Top
#895870 - 06/09/07 09:46 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8869
Loc: SC
Quote:

Then how did it shear to a 40 weight? I thought these oils were shear resistant.




Terry would have to explain that. Perhaps it's the effect of fuel dilution?

Quote:

Then Terry has said this: "Dan, SF 20w50 racing oil was more synthetic than ANY of the OTC lubes mentioned."

By "more synthetic" I thought it was being implied that this oil does have a significant petroleum base. If it was 100% syn, I think Terry would have said as much. Let's let him clarify that, if he will...




The operative word is "was" not "had"..."was more synthetic." If he'd sad "had more synthetic," then your observation would make more sense.
_________________________
2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: RLI 5w40 HD Low Ash
2004 Ford Crown Vic: Pennzoil Platinum 5w20

Top
#895871 - 06/09/07 09:56 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: G-MAN]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
I think he said "was" because that oil is no longer available... or at least that's how I took it.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post730455

There is the SF report again... it wasn't fuel, because it had only .5%...

Top
#895872 - 06/09/07 11:12 PM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
Terry Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3845
Loc: Greenville , Texas
Amazing how my commentary is skewed out of context and don't grasp what I am sharing. Then you draw conclusions based on incorrect assumptions....give up your back yard formulating and oil analysis careers until you go back to school. You are drawing the wrong conclusions from incomplete understanding.

Reading carefully and posting less is a good start, Good luck.

Top
#895873 - 06/10/07 01:03 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: Terry]
fuel tanker man Offline


Registered: 08/04/04
Posts: 1341
Loc: wytheville, va
Okay...

So how much petroleum was in the SF 20W50 formula? Why do you think it sheared? These aren't rhetorical questions, we really would like to know.

Terry, forgive me for suspecting that you are not sure. That's not an indictment of your professional integrity, just an observation based on what you've said (and not said) up to this point.

When a well meaning teacher realizes that he has been misunderstood, he seeks to clarify his point or points. Wouldn't it make more sense to do that, than to tell me (and perhaps others) to "go back to school?" I don't need any further education to realize that you're not being candid with us about what would seem a simple matter.

If you choose to bow out of this thread at this point, what option are you leaving us but to conclude that you really aren't certain as to the petroleum content of the subject oil?

Dan

Top
#895874 - 06/10/07 02:44 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: fuel tanker man]
wileyE Offline


Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 1967
Loc: Kitsap, WA
I know you want answer from a pro, so maybe I should just keep quiet, but. In my experience with different oils and having them tested in certain applications, I find that if the oil was too thick to start for application it lost visc pretty quick. Regardless of formulation or whether there was fuel in oil or not. Dropping a grade always slowed the loss in viscosity. So from that viewpoint, right or wrong, it could have been the 20w50 in question may have too thick. Hopefully if there is flaw in my logic someone can point it out. This is one subjects that I find the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.


Edited by wileyE (06/10/07 02:50 AM)

Top
#895875 - 06/10/07 03:09 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: wileyE]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8869
Loc: SC
Let me give you an example of what frustrates Terry: Look how much has been made over the SF oil shearing or losing viscosity in that application, but how many who want to make a big deal about this actually know what vis this oil started at? Maybe the oil sheared and maybe it didn't, but the point is without all the data you don't KNOW. You're just speculating and it's based on ignorance.
_________________________
2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: RLI 5w40 HD Low Ash
2004 Ford Crown Vic: Pennzoil Platinum 5w20

Top
#895876 - 06/10/07 03:59 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: G-MAN]
LC Offline


Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 458
Loc: Wisconsin
I can tell you fuel dilution on my UOA of SF 20w50 was higher than what Blackstone labs reported.
I am sure that played a big part of its dropping to a 40 weight.
Good thing I picked up another gallon before Phil closed shop.
I am hoping to hear that he will soon be offering his oils again.
Phil if you lurking out there. I sure would like to get a couple more gallons of this if you have some lying around.
_________________________
09 CVO SE Road Glide
04 Super Glide Sport
00 TW 200
12 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
14 Mazda 6 iTouring
QSU/PP/PU oil

Top
#895877 - 06/10/07 03:59 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: G-MAN]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29218
Loc: NJ
I have read that vegetable base oils have unsaturation which are very oxidatively unstable. They have freezing problems. So I guess the only true advantage comes form the eco friendly side.
_________________________
2014 Mazda 3 S GT AT - OE oil
2003 Forester XS 5spd - M1 0w40

Top
#895878 - 06/10/07 04:31 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: buster]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8869
Loc: SC
Quote:

I have read that vegetable base oils have unsaturation which are very oxidatively unstable. They have freezing problems. So I guess the only true advantage comes form the eco friendly side.





This is the sort of post that makes Terry not only want to quit posting here, but go out in his back yard and blow his brains out.
_________________________
2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: RLI 5w40 HD Low Ash
2004 Ford Crown Vic: Pennzoil Platinum 5w20

Top
#895879 - 06/10/07 04:47 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: G-MAN]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29218
Loc: NJ
G-Man you wouldn't say that if you knew my source.

Since when is Terry divine btw?
_________________________
2014 Mazda 3 S GT AT - OE oil
2003 Forester XS 5spd - M1 0w40

Top
#895880 - 06/10/07 04:53 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: buster]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8869
Loc: SC
Quote:

G-Man you wouldn't say that if you knew my source.




Wanna bet? I'd say it even if Terry were your source and if you thought about it you'd know why.

I'm going to close this thread since it's run its course and it totally off topic now.
_________________________
2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: RLI 5w40 HD Low Ash
2004 Ford Crown Vic: Pennzoil Platinum 5w20

Top
#895881 - 06/10/07 04:54 AM Re: What is a good oil to run in a Harley Twin Cam [Re: G-MAN]
LC Offline


Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 458
Loc: Wisconsin
Plant-derived oils, such as soy, cottonseed, and corn oil have different levels of C16 and C18 ester chains with varying levels of unsaturation. The unsaturation levels of most vegetable oils render them insufficiently stable to oxygen and high temperatures. It would be desirable to provide vegetable- or animal-derived oils that exhibit high thermal and oxygen stability for use as or in synthetic oils and lubricants.
In one embodiment, the method for making a high temperature and oxidatively stable lubricant from a renewable oil comprises the steps of: flowing a liquid which comprises a renewable oil including unsaturated fatty acids through a high voltage electrical field effective to convert the unsaturated fatty acids into saturated fatty acids; and adding one or more functional additives to the saturated fatty acid-containing renewable oil to form a synthetic lubricant. Examples of functional additives include fluidizing agents, viscosity modifying agents, antiwear agents, fluidizing agents, polymers, antioxidants, detergents, dispersants, corrosion- and oxidation-inhibiting agents, pour point depressing agents, extreme pressure agents, color stabilizers, and anti-foam agents.
The electric field catalyses the partial hydrogenation of the carbon-carbon double bonds (C.dbd.C) in unsaturated fatty acids, e.g., vegetable triglycerides, to form saturated fatty acids. The saturated fatty acids are then usIn one embodiment, the lubricant comprises 80-100% wt. of a base oil, which consists of the saturated fatty acids described herein, and 0-20% wt. of additives to give the lubricant the desired viscometric properties, low temperature behavior, oxidative stability, corrosion protection, demulsibility and water rejection, friction coefficients, lubricities, wear protection, air release, color and other properties.ed as or in a synthetic lubricant product.

Top
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >