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#828923 - 02/08/07 03:56 AM Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me?
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
I've been a member for less than a year, and it seems to me there's a disturbing decline in grace and civility on BITOG. Maybe it's just me, but I seem to notice a lot more smart-aleck comments, put downs, and one-upsmanship. Used to be friendly debates and discussions where reasonable people could disagree in a friendly manner. Now, they too often turn into downright insults and name-calling. Heck, I like and use humor as much as the next guy, but some of the things I read here lately go beyond humor and into flaming and vitriol.

What happened? Or am I just being too "sensitive"?

_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#828924 - 02/08/07 04:05 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
wavinwayne Offline


Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 7519
Loc: North Alabama
Sissy!

j/k.....I've noticed it, too.
_________________________
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

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#828925 - 02/08/07 04:08 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
BearZDefect Offline


Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 1868
Loc: Lexington, KY
I'm with you, Lou.

I found BITOG to be one of the few automotive boards that was civil.

Unfortunately, some threads here have degraded in recent weeks and months. I don't know how that happened either.

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#828926 - 02/08/07 04:13 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: BearZDefect]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33224
Loc: New Jersey
It happens from time to time, people notice it, and it changes.

The long timers get tired of people asking poorly-written simple dumb questions that they could find in a search. The short timers are sometimes rude, etc.

But this type of thing tends to be quite cyclical, it happens.

JMH

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#828927 - 02/08/07 04:15 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: JHZR2]
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19252
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
I think a lot of people are cranky because it's been so cold all across most of North America the last few weeks. I know I've been a lot more cranky since our weather got so much colder! I'll cheer up once our temps finally go above freezing again!
_________________________
2005 Corvette (M1 5w30 & Fram Ultra)
2006 Civic EX Coupe (M1 0w20 & Fram Ultra)
2010 BMW 328i X-Drive

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#828928 - 02/08/07 04:39 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Patman]
Syntec-Man Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 478
Loc: CANADA EH?
I have noticed that for sure!!!! ive been coming to this site for 4 years. i just recently got memebership and everyone has been on my back. Oh you don't have this car blah blah blah. i mean common why would i come lie on the internet does it make sense? how stupid are you to question what cars i own and what i don't own, what do i gain from lying to you? i just joined this site because i have a great interest in lubrication!
_________________________
www.FTC.COM donate I did 100 bucks feeds 5000 kids!!!

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#828929 - 02/08/07 04:47 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
Mokanic Offline


Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 1563
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Quote:

I've been a member for less than a year, and it seems to me there's a disturbing decline in grace and civility on BITOG. Maybe it's just me, but I seem to notice a lot more smart-aleck comments, put downs, and one-upsmanship. Used to be friendly debates and discussions where reasonable people could disagree in a friendly manner. Now, they too often turn into downright insults and name-calling. Heck, I like and use humor as much as the next guy, but some of the things I read here lately go beyond humor and into flaming and vitriol.

What happened? Or am I just being too "sensitive"?






It seems to be more about winning an argument or getting people to think as you do instead of facts and real-world experience.

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#828930 - 02/08/07 04:56 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
peterr Offline


Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 441
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I have seen a lot more snide nitpicking responses in the last few months. I have been a member about 3 years and apart from the great info, one of the things I liked was the civility.

It used to be that the only posts that generated any hostility were the ones like
Quote:


"I am a total newbie, what is Auto-RX , is Mobil1 the best oil in the world for every single application , and since my oil is a 5w30 how much thicker will it be at operating temperature than it is in winter? "







Now I see people getting snippy not just because of the weather, but about the weather.

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#828931 - 02/08/07 05:05 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: peterr]
Chris Meutsch Offline


Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 1942
Loc: Cincinnati
It's because you can fight anyone on the Internet. It doesn't hurt.
_________________________
"Please add more vagueness to this question and it will be that much easier to answer."
----TomYoung, 5/29/14

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#828932 - 02/08/07 06:59 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Chris Meutsch]
obbop Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 2832
Loc: MO
Woosies


/scampers away extra quick before cats and hurled rocks can impact tender body
_________________________
National Master-at-Arms
Student Revolutionary Strike Force

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#828933 - 02/08/07 07:11 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: obbop]
rn2fine Offline


Registered: 06/01/04
Posts: 252
Loc: AZ
I have not been here too long but I have noticed what I think is rude behavior. There are lots of people with various backgrounds and experiences on this site. Even if a person feels or knows that they are right they should respect the opinions of others. It appears that some people just can not resist the urge to lash out or back at others. It sometimes reminds me of kids fighting on the playground.
_________________________
68 Chevelle, 70 C20, 72 Suburban, 01 Harley Duece, 10 Toyota Yaris

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#828934 - 02/08/07 07:52 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: rn2fine]
ewetho Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 1304
Loc: Kankakee, IL
Some is failed attempts at humor, some is just no it all's, some is just rude, some were just poorly chosen words, some is tongue in cheek.

Some in the case of the Mobil1 stuff is people feeling a bit betrayed and angry so the hostility will rise in those threads. I have not noticed to much more lately. Sure it is like other forums I frequent that it ebbs and flows. Some weeks it will ratchet up and up and then people get tired of the #@$%! and we all settle down. Those that don't should be ignored and it will stop.
_________________________
2004 Neon SE 2.0L Current Fill
Motorcraft 5W-30, Motorcraft FL-300

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#828935 - 02/08/07 07:56 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: ewetho]
Auto-Union Offline


Registered: 02/01/06
Posts: 3833
Loc: NEPA
Site needs a Noob-specific Forum.

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#828936 - 02/08/07 08:06 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Auto-Union]
Auto-Union Offline


Registered: 02/01/06
Posts: 3833
Loc: NEPA
Seriously, a Forum for Noobs that they will be limited to for the first 10-20 posts. They can post their comments and questions there be helped-out by other Noobs until they either figure it out by themselves or get a Sr. Member who feels like commenting.

Wiseazzes who come here with fully-entrenched idiotic notions and must re-learn everything over from scratch after being de-programmed...they seem to stir the pot a lot in the process. The Noobs can graduate to regular status after a Mod sees they come with good intentions and an open mind. Other Members who act-up can be sent back down to Noobville for a while, then after they repay their Karmic debt by helping out the Noobs for a month they are allows back to the big leagues.

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#828937 - 02/08/07 08:18 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Auto-Union]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Quote:

Seriously, a Forum for Noobs that they will be limited to for the first 10-20 posts. They can post their comments and questions there be helped-out by other Noobs until they either figure it out by themselves or get a Sr. Member who feels like commenting.

Wiseazzes who come here with fully-entrenched idiotic notions and must re-learn everything over from scratch after being de-programmed...they seem to stir the pot a lot in the process. The Noobs can graduate to regular status after a Mod sees they come with good intentions and an open mind. Other Members who act-up can be sent back down to Noobville for a while, then after they repay their Karmic debt by helping out the Noobs for a month they are allows back to the big leagues.




Good idea!

But wait, please tell me I have graduated past the noob stage!
_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#828938 - 02/08/07 10:15 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
Cicero Offline


Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 346
Loc: New Mexico
How about a forum just for the real deal oil experts only? Some "mega-posters" and "experts by their own lights" would not qualify and some with only a few posts would. "Credentials" required or something like that.
I always enjoy reading the posts of certain people, gentleman all, who from time to time add their expert knowledge, opinions and thoughts to a thread. It might get some of the old timers to post more if they didn't have to endure goofy questions and comments from guys like me.
_________________________
If you cannot answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.

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#828939 - 02/08/07 11:15 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
Merkava_4 Online   content


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 8833
Loc: Clovis, CA
It helps to not have an opinion. I know which oils a good and which oils are total garbage, but I sure as heck am not going to tell you.

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#828940 - 02/08/07 02:41 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Quote:

Maybe it's just me, but I seem to notice a lot more smart-aleck comments




Yup, it's just you.

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#828941 - 02/08/07 03:35 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: moribundman]
Happy Birthday Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46548
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Agreed.

Looks like mori and buster and I will need to cut back.

Seriously - it depends mostly on the threads you click on. If you don't like to read any "ugly" threads don't click on them. Oh.

As a side note just avoid any threads that have any question of conventional vs. synthetic. Be warned that this thread type takes MANY forms. Posters will do their best to disguise this "discussion" - mostly noobies - but sometimes some asinine deekwad with 200-300 mostly stupid posts will ask this question along the lines of "how often should I pi~~ per day?" . Also avoid any threads with "You ARE a piece of sh~~" in the title.

Have a GREAT and FRIENDLY day!

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#828942 - 02/08/07 03:49 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: moribundman]
farrarfan1 Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 1491
Loc: Indiana
When I joined approximately 2.5 years ago it was because I genuinely was interested in the science of lubrication. I naively assumed that the board consisted primarily of people that worked in the field and had actual working knowledge about oil.Sadly that is not the case. Yes there are some genuine experts that are highly trained and some that are self taught that post.It has become increasingly frustrating to wade through the endless topics about which oil smells best and who makes Super Tech in order to find the ocassional piece of worthwhile information. How many Havoline vs GTX or Pennzoil vs Valvoline topics have to be posted before someone stops asking questions that can't be answered? We have posters that want to be taken seriously when they ask which oil to run in their BMW but they type like a 12 year old girl sending her boyfriend an instant message.I believe way too many people overstep their ability by their attempts to "analyze" or "interpret" every UOA and give their recomendations.Auto Unions suggestion of a NOOB status is one of the best ideas I've seen here recently.With 16,000 members on a board that has been around for 5 years why would a new member think they could possibly say something that hasn't been said before? My .02 cents worth from a cranky, disgruntled member that has seen the quality of what used to be an outstanding board decline.
_________________________
05 Chevy Uplander Valvoline Synpower 5W30
10 Kia Soul factory fill

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#828943 - 02/08/07 03:57 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: farrarfan1]
Stooge Offline


Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 272
Loc: Ellicott City, MD
Yes - many know-it-alls here and they are happy to tell you that!

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#828944 - 02/08/07 04:01 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Stooge]
css9450 Offline


Registered: 01/03/04
Posts: 1616
Loc: Glen Ellyn, IL
Its not just here, its on all the automotive forums I visit. Rudeness and fighting are the norm these days.

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#828945 - 02/08/07 05:01 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: css9450]
mazduh30 Offline


Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 306
Loc: BC Canada
I take all the "rude" comments like a grain of salt. Now, you must admit some of them are pretty funny. If reading these E-mail responses hurt your feelings, or get you emotionally upset...maybe it is time to turn the computer off and take time in the real world...take a walk, go fishing, etc.. The problem with the computer is...no interaction with a physical being, no emotions, no verbal/nonverbal communication, getting "sucked-in", etc. That is my 2 cents worth. Hope you all have a great day and find the "oil" mother lode.

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#828946 - 02/08/07 06:04 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: mazduh30]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Well I came here to learn, and I think I have...some. But I'm not anywhere close to an expert...never will be. But regardless of one's knowledge level, there's always room for grace, dignity, and civility. Cynicism and derision just make it a less enjoyable experience for everyone.

I can go do something else, and I often do. But when I do visit, it'd be nice to not have to read all the bickering.
_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#828947 - 02/08/07 06:05 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: mazduh30]
9296D21B14 Offline


Registered: 01/20/05
Posts: 387
Loc: Louisiana
The old automotive derived adage "Be sure brain is in gear before putting keyboard in motion" may apply here. Also, another favorite, "Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics..." Overall still nowhere near as bad on many make/model specific boards I've visited. As long as No R/S/P is enforced and the language sensor works I don't see that much of a problem. I respect and pay attention more to those posters who are able to be civil.

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#828948 - 02/08/07 06:33 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: 9296D21B14]
Mr_Incredible Offline


Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 1359
Loc: Nebraska
My apologies right off the bat if I've been too obviously a newb. Every time you walk into a new group of people, it's like the first day of school.

I've learned a great deal here and I thank you all for sharing your experiences. Though I've been around long enough to know a few things, some of what I knew wasn't up to date. I was set right, here.

But an exchange of ideas can get exciting when the chase is joined. It's not that we're trying to be rude, it's just that politeness is not Job #1 when typing as fast as you can to get the thought out before it evaporates.

I'm glad to be here, and I wish you all Happy Friday!
_________________________
"Daaaaaayng." -Joe Dirt

'12 Prius C
'09 Prius
'99 F-250 Super Duty V10
'98 Z28 LS1
'82 KZ1100
'79 Suzuki GS550L


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#828949 - 02/08/07 06:52 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: farrarfan1]
JohnnyO Offline


Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Quote:

How many Havoline vs GTX or Pennzoil vs Valvoline topics have to be posted before someone stops asking questions that can't be answered? We have posters that want to be taken seriously when they ask which oil to run in their BMW but they type like a 12 year old girl sending her boyfriend an instant message.



It's gone downhill ever since we got mentioned in Hot Rod Magazine and more people found out about us.
_________________________
Steeler Nation does not have to travel. We're already there.

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#828950 - 02/08/07 07:05 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: farrarfan1]
Axe Man Offline


Registered: 10/17/05
Posts: 354
Loc: Highland, NY
Quote:

When I joined approximately 2.5 years ago it was because I genuinely was interested in the science of lubrication. I naively assumed that the board consisted primarily of people that worked in the field and had actual working knowledge about oil.Sadly that is not the case. Yes there are some genuine experts that are highly trained and some that are self taught that post.




This site has taught me to re-think my views of lubrication in general and I'm grateful for that. I have learned much and I now apply those principles. But this statement bugs me. I don't have a Piled High and Deep after my name, I only have 74 posts, and I'm not (yet) a site supporter. So if I interpret your statement correctly I have nothing to offer in the way of knowledge or experience? I read this site everyday. Yes, I've noticed lately a general decline in civility. IMHO the offenders should be dealt with on an individual basis. But to lump the "non-experts" as a reason for a site decline is just plain unfair.


Quote:

It has become increasingly frustrating to wade through the endless topics about which oil smells best and who makes Super Tech in order to find the ocassional piece of worthwhile information. How many Havoline vs GTX or Pennzoil vs Valvoline topics have to be posted before someone stops asking questions that can't be answered?




I have a better solution. Rather than fussing over repeat questions simply and gently ask the poster to do a search and see if that answers their question. And if it doesn't then you're welcome to post a follow up.


Quote:

We have posters that want to be taken seriously when they ask which oil to run in their BMW but they type like a 12 year old girl sending her boyfriend an instant message.




Agreed, can't stand trying read something that looks like gibberish. But again, not everyone has the same level of writing/reading skills.


Quote:

I believe way too many people overstep their ability by their attempts to "analyze" or "interpret" every UOA and give their recomendations.




Maybe. I have no opinion here.

Quote:

Auto Unions suggestion of a NOOB status is one of the best ideas I've seen here recently.




I think that's a terrible idea. I've seen sites run this way. If you ain't part of the "in crowd" you forever remain a noob.


Quote:

With 16,000 members on a board that has been around for 5 years why would a new member think they could possibly say something that hasn't been said before? My .02 cents worth from a cranky, disgruntled member that has seen the quality of what used to be an outstanding board decline.





I'm sorry Old Man, but this just smacks of snobbery to me. You honestly think that no new members can offer anything new to the site? If you do this site is doomed. A forum grows and prospers by the diversity of it's members. If the "establishment" feels that new members can't offer anything fresh or enlightening then why join up?

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#828951 - 02/08/07 07:21 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Axe Man]
michaelc80 Offline


Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 1779
Loc: Central Iowa
I have to agree. I rarely post any longer, but do read a number of the posts. The constant bickering, rehashing the "domestic vs. import" argument and constant Pablo references to bodily functions and excrement get old real fast. It's a decidedly different place than it was 2-3 years ago.

Top that off with the lax moderation that allows anyone to get past the decency filters with misspelled words and it's clear that BITOG isn't what it used to be. As much as I'd like to avoid the posts that are offensive, it's hard to when a discussion starts with something simple and morphs into something entirely different.

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#828952 - 02/08/07 07:27 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: michaelc80]
Happy Birthday Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46548
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Sorry. I'll cut back.

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#828953 - 02/08/07 07:36 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Pablo]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Hey, I think everyone is entitled to state their opinion. But the way it's delivered and the way we respond to it is where the conflict comes in.
_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#828954 - 02/08/07 07:38 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
Pbert25 Offline


Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 113
Loc: San Antonio,TX
Well I guess that ot cpuld be less civil here, but that seems he way it is in other places I visit too.
_________________________
2004 Pontiac Grand Prix GT1

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#828955 - 02/08/07 07:39 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Pbert25]
Pbert25 Offline


Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 113
Loc: San Antonio,TX
Darn I hate it when I don't edit at first.
_________________________
2004 Pontiac Grand Prix GT1

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#828956 - 02/08/07 07:42 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Pbert25]
Happy Birthday Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46548
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
In reality BiTOG is pretty darn civil.

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#828957 - 02/08/07 07:50 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Pablo]
yannis Offline


Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 784
Loc: Greece
I believe we have discussed 90% of the lub. themes and any additional info is either confidential or has to be paid.
Thus we spend our time dog fighting.
I suggest we move on and gather some money for lectures.
_________________________
"Heaven Has No Favorites" by Erich Maria Remarque

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#828958 - 02/08/07 08:16 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
Cicero Offline


Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 346
Loc: New Mexico
Quote:

Hey, I think everyone is entitled to state their opinion. But the way it's delivered and the way we respond to it is where the conflict comes in.




Well said.
_________________________
If you cannot answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.

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#828959 - 02/08/07 08:25 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Cicero]
GMorg Offline


Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 2326
Loc: Mizzou-land
I am a big fan of civility. However, I am not comfortable when opinion is considered equal to fact nor when belief is considered equal to conclusion. So, when opinions contradict verifiable reality, I think they should be publicly dismantled. Perpetuating myth in the name of civility does a disservice to civilization.

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#828960 - 02/08/07 08:27 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: GMorg]
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Is that the smell threadlocker in the air?

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#828961 - 02/08/07 08:53 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: GMorg]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Quote:

I am a big fan of civility. However, I am not comfortable when opinion is considered equal to fact nor when belief is considered equal to conclusion. So, when opinions contradict verifiable reality, I think they should be publicly dismantled. Perpetuating myth in the name of civility does a disservice to civilization.




Agreed. But I wasn't talking about disproving myths or allowing falsehoods to be perpetuated. Merely how we go about it sometimes. My original point wasn't so much about who knows or doesn't know what but how we communicate our positions.

I'm really not *that* sensitive. I was just making an observation.

_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#828962 - 02/08/07 11:32 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: farrarfan1]
Rico567 Offline


Registered: 09/08/06
Posts: 173
Loc: IL
I have only been on BITOG a short while, but have found it very informative.

As for the civility issue....read some other forums. BITOG's pretty good. I'm not saying it isn't deplorable, I just don't know the answer.

As far as the long view, the issue of civility calls to mind what were supposedly Evelyn Waugh's last words: "It begins with bad manners; it ends with random shootings in the streets."

I think we've arrived.
_________________________
'13 VW Passat TDI, '04 SAAB 9-5 wagon, '02 Dodge Dakota 4x4

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#828963 - 02/08/07 11:38 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Pablo]
JohnnyO Offline


Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Quote:

In reality BiTOG is pretty darn civil.



There is a certain sports board that I no longer go to for that reason and the #@$%! didn't even involve me, I just got tired of looking at it. A couple mods broke off and started their own board, which is more tightly moderated. Profanity still abounds but the personal attacks get nipped. BITOG is real mild by comparison.
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Steeler Nation does not have to travel. We're already there.

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#828964 - 02/08/07 11:49 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: JohnnyO]
Winston Offline


Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1904
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Maybe we should have a test that would allow people into the "Non-Noob" section. It would have questions like;

1. What is better, thick or thin oil.
2. Why is Mobil 1 so noisy?
3. Would you by Castrol Syntec even though they use Grp III.
4. Are automakers specifying 5W20 because of CAFE?
5. What is better SM or SL oil..

Oh, nevermind. There are no simple answers, that is why we are here.

As far as questions being asked over and over again. The amount of posts would drop by 99% if you could not ask a question that had already been asked.

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#828965 - 02/08/07 11:51 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Winston]
Winston Offline


Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1904
Loc: Bay Area, CA
It is also really fun to see some of the noobs posts....

"I have been changing the oil in my cars for thirty years, so I know what I am talking about. Pennzoil has wax in it and will gum up your engine. So, DONT USE PENNZOIL!"

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#828966 - 02/09/07 01:06 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Axe Man]
farrarfan1 Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 1491
Loc: Indiana
Quote:

Quote:

When I joined approximately 2.5 years ago it was because I genuinely was interested in the science of lubrication. I naively assumed that the board consisted primarily of people that worked in the field and had actual working knowledge about oil.Sadly that is not the case. Yes there are some genuine experts that are highly trained and some that are self taught that post.




This site has taught me to re-think my views of lubrication in general and I'm grateful for that. I have learned much and I now apply those principles. But this statement bugs me. I don't have a Piled High and Deep after my name, I only have 74 posts, and I'm not (yet) a site supporter. So if I interpret your statement correctly I have nothing to offer in the way of knowledge or experience? I read this site everyday. Yes, I've noticed lately a general decline in civility. IMHO the offenders should be dealt with on an individual basis. But to lump the "non-experts" as a reason for a site decline is just plain unfair.


Quote:

It has become increasingly frustrating to wade through the endless topics about which oil smells best and who makes Super Tech in order to find the ocassional piece of worthwhile information. How many Havoline vs GTX or Pennzoil vs Valvoline topics have to be posted before someone stops asking questions that can't be answered?




I have a better solution. Rather than fussing over repeat questions simply and gently ask the poster to do a search and see if that answers their question. And if it doesn't then you're welcome to post a follow up.


Quote:

We have posters that want to be taken seriously when they ask which oil to run in their BMW but they type like a 12 year old girl sending her boyfriend an instant message.




Agreed, can't stand trying read something that looks like gibberish. But again, not everyone has the same level of writing/reading skills.


Quote:

I believe way too many people overstep their ability by their attempts to "analyze" or "interpret" every UOA and give their recomendations.




Maybe. I have no opinion here.

Quote:

Auto Unions suggestion of a NOOB status is one of the best ideas I've seen here recently.




I think that's a terrible idea. I've seen sites run this way. If you ain't part of the "in crowd" you forever remain a noob.


Quote:

With 16,000 members on a board that has been around for 5 years why would a new member think they could possibly say something that hasn't been said before? My .02 cents worth from a cranky, disgruntled member that has seen the quality of what used to be an outstanding board decline.





I'm sorry Old Man, but this just smacks of snobbery to me. You honestly think that no new members can offer anything new to the site? If you do this site is doomed. A forum grows and prospers by the diversity of it's members. If the "establishment" feels that new members can't offer anything fresh or enlightening then why join up?




A thread about civility and I get called an old man and a snob. Oh well I've been called worse. As to a couple of your points. Yes I think people like you (and I) that don't have half of the alphabet at the end of our names can make valuable contributions IF they are based on our pesonal experiences and lessons learned. Not on something that you (or I) "heard" or "read somewhere".
As to the search function I'm sure you've read questions that are answered like this: "Try the search function,it's your friend". Followed by "I did but didn't have any luck".Followed by someone posting 3 or 4 links they found using the search function that answered the question.The search function on this board is a little cumbersome but it does work. Almost every question asked daily has been asked before. Including the ever popular Brand X vs Brand Y polls. "Why is Mobil 1 noisy"? And the relative newcomer, "Is Mobil 1 all group3"?
I'm sorry if I came off as an elderly snob. I'm only 51.I'm really not a snob but I am cranky and short on tolerance for people that act like they know more than they do.Like new members that can't even spell tribologist but think they are one because they've "lurked" here for a few weeks.I think it is dangerous to be giving advice on something as important as auto maintenance when your only training is what you've picked up on a message board.
_________________________
05 Chevy Uplander Valvoline Synpower 5W30
10 Kia Soul factory fill

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#828967 - 02/09/07 01:09 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Pablo]
obbop Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 2832
Loc: MO
Quote:

Sorry. I'll cut back.




No need.... just a little stint in "Noobville" and all will be swell.
_________________________
National Master-at-Arms
Student Revolutionary Strike Force

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#828968 - 02/09/07 02:59 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: obbop]
Auto-Union Offline


Registered: 02/01/06
Posts: 3833
Loc: NEPA
I offer my services as Moderator for the Noob Forum, a "Nooberator" of sorts. I actually could se it working for the reasons I mentioned. It would allow people to ask the "dumb" questions without feeling inhibited, give newer members a place to make friends and set a respectfull tone. It's not outright snobbery as some claim, the difference with BitOG verses say a ....sports Forum is that the level of knowledge required to fully participate in Tribology discussion is ~rare~ among the General Public whereas Joe Schmoe could actually be an expert on sports without leaving home or spending time on the Forum reading or searching. Seriously, how far can you get on BitOG w/o reading or searching HERE?
So, the normal progression when people find the site is they come with a easy question, ask it and then they either don't like the answer and argue or actually go read archived posts further....then they take some time and "test" their aquired knowledge by- helping out Noobs. Eventually, after some interaction with Sr members, they learn the ropes and become good members with their own skills. What I proposed mirrors the normal progression of events, but with a higher degree of control....which might inspire members to show some self-control and respect for th Forum in general. Nothing wrong with people coming and just reading, this encourages that. It's not a race to see how many members can be registered either. A number of people might register, but not post anyway BECAUSE of the tension.
A lot of problems arise with Noobs posting on the OT Forum as well, the "Noobville Option" will keep OT cleaner and more civil. Am I missing something?

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#828969 - 02/09/07 04:04 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: farrarfan1]
oldmaninsc Offline


Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 1202
Loc: California
Quote:



A thread about civility and I get called an old man and a snob. Oh well I've been called worse. As to a couple of your points. Yes I think people like you (and I) that don't have half of the alphabet at the end of our names can make valuable contributions IF they are based on our pesonal experiences and lessons learned. Not on something that you (or I) "heard" or "read somewhere".
As to the search function I'm sure you've read questions that are answered like this: "Try the search function,it's your friend". Followed by "I did but didn't have any luck".Followed by someone posting 3 or 4 links they found using the search function that answered the question.The search function on this board is a little cumbersome but it does work. Almost every question asked daily has been asked before. Including the ever popular Brand X vs Brand Y polls. "Why is Mobil 1 noisy"? And the relative newcomer, "Is Mobil 1 all group3"?
I'm sorry if I came off as an elderly snob. I'm only 51.I'm really not a snob but I am cranky and short on tolerance for people that act like they know more than they do.Like new members that can't even spell tribologist but think they are one because they've "lurked" here for a few weeks.I think it is dangerous to be giving advice on something as important as auto maintenance when your only training is what you've picked up on a message board.




I agree with everything you said. In regards to the search function though, I went through this with the mods on another forum. The thing to remember is that there are a lot of different levels of computer users out there. There are some who are doing well to turn the computer on and somehow connect to the internet. So for these people, using a search engine is difficult at best. I am NOT trying to be snobish or putting anyone down, I am simply pointing out the facts. I have worked in the computer field for many years, and see this on a daily basis.

I have worked on cars for about 40 years. I don't consider myself an expert on anything. I've learned a lot here. The fact that I've changed oil in vehicles literally hundreds of times does not make me an "expert" on oil. I could teach a 8 year old to change the oil!

I think we could all use the reminder to be a little more civil and nice to each other - (myself included).


Edited by oldmaninsc (02/09/07 04:04 AM)
_________________________
2004 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
2005 Chevy Trailblazer EXT (SOLD)
2005 Toyota Camry LE
1995 Ford Aerostar EXT
1998 Ford F-150

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#828970 - 02/09/07 04:20 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: oldmaninsc]
SSQ Offline


Registered: 09/16/05
Posts: 209
Loc: OR
Yup, the weather is so werid this year even astronauts are fighting.

I am no expert in oil, that's why I haven't had much post after like 2 years here. I did notice a lot more arguments here, but like others said, there are worse fourms. I still enjoy reading and learning here, and occationally contribute when I can.

By the way, are you guys sure Mobil1 isn't the best oil in the world? I heard from my mechanic at Jiffy Lube that it's the same oil used in Jay Leno's chin.

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#828971 - 02/09/07 04:30 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Patman]
Mr. Boston Offline


Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 231
Loc: Kansas
Quote:

I think a lot of people are cranky because it's been so cold all across most of North America the last few weeks. I know I've been a lot more cranky since our weather got so much colder! I'll cheer up once our temps finally go above freezing again!




That's a fact! My Harley keeps calling me and I can't answer...

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#828972 - 02/09/07 06:06 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Mr. Boston]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Well, despite my original question, I still love this site. I literally learn something new every day, usually numerous things. And perhaps more importantly, I'm made to *think* about things, and sometimes it changes my mind or causes me to look at things in a whole new light.

I try hard not to give too much *advice* because I don't necessarily feel qualified. I will share my *opinion* and *experiences* from time to time, but I try not to use too many absolutes, e.g. "always", "never", "best", "worst", etc.

Oh, and I like to ask a lot of questions! And I do a LOT of reading, research, and searches here usually *before* I ask a question, fwiw.

But all in all, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, this thread was not about "what" we communicate, it was about "how" we communicate. Oh, and a well-placed joke and a little friendly sarcasm can go a long way if used properly.

All of this, as always, is IMHO. (See?)

_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#828973 - 02/09/07 06:12 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
Happy Birthday Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46548
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
I fixed a dryer and a PC and gave myself a vasectomy all in one week thanks to this site. OK so I made the vasectomy part up (and did without using any potty humor).

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#828974 - 02/09/07 06:47 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Pablo]
PT1 Offline


Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 5746
Loc: near the mistake
I am new here but was put in my place on another forum when a guy with 30 years of experience debating gear oil told me about his Minnesota "farm rated" GL5 gear lube for $1.79 a quart from the farm supply... was so speechless I couldn't stop laughing....dog gone it...$1.79??????
_________________________
Oils well that ends well...

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#828975 - 02/09/07 07:12 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Merkava_4]
Triple_Se7en Offline


Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 6305
Loc: 1/2 hr. north of Detroit
Quote:

It helps to not have an opinion. I know which oils a good and which oils are total garbage, but I sure as heck am not going to tell you.




Why not?

We would love to see your "Best List" and your "Worst List" for dino and another for synthetic.

C'mon - give us your Top-10 in each.

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#828976 - 02/09/07 07:27 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Triple_Se7en]
LT4 Vette Offline


Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 12077
Loc: USA
What about all the so called experts that write a few posts claiming to be some expert and then disappear ??
They claim to have some 'inside' info that is top secret, but can't go into detail or prove what they posted.


People need to stop posting dumb Questions like this...

"I drive 10 miles a day. Do you think 5w20 Redline Oil with a Redline Oil filter and a high flow Redline air filter provide enough protection for my (fill in the make & Model)."

I see questions like this posted 100 times per week on BITOG. Whats wrong with using the search button at the top of the page ???

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#828977 - 02/09/07 08:02 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LT4 Vette]
Auto-Union Offline


Registered: 02/01/06
Posts: 3833
Loc: NEPA
The best thing about BitOG is not learning about oil, it's about learning a logical METHOD to analyze a subject.

It's like my explaination about cars to the teens in my family- I don't really care what ~kind~ of car they drive when they come to see me, but I force them to look at and think about the subject of cars as objectively as possible. So, picking out a car and the maintenance is an EXERCISE in RATIONALITY. The same logical methodology, once mastered, can be applied to other areas of life with a positive result. The car or the oil is just a model or example or device to learn and pracitce rational thought and analysis. That's the point, and oil is a good ~medium~ for learning.

Not to get all Zen on everyone....but I do have an appointment in NYC to speak to the Zen Master (as part of my court-ordered therapy). PM me with any questions.

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#828978 - 02/09/07 08:15 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LT4 Vette]
psudaytona Offline


Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 936
Loc: Pittsburgh,PA
From my history on the internet, BITOG is THE most friendly and civil forum I have found. In every other board there are straight out wars on the forums, discussion fall by the wayside to vulgarity laced shouting matches at each other written solely in text.

My pet peeve is this "IM Speak" nonsense. I try my hardest not to do it, but most folks I know are doing it. It bugs me. I can understand it on cellphones with limited keyboards. but online with a full keyboard....type the stinkin letters. "b4", "sum1","r u" just show limited intelligence to me.
_________________________
1998 Crown Victoria Police Interceptor
4.6L V8

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#828979 - 02/09/07 09:46 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: psudaytona]
bretfraz Offline


Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 2756
Loc: CarMax
I think one of the main problems on other forums where things get nasty is poor forum moderation and management. If the powers-that-be refuse to stop the bickering, why should the forum members conduct themselves in a decent manner?

I've seen too many forums where the mods are directly involved in the flame wars. Having an opinion and trying to direct the conversation is one thing, but when a thread gets out of hand, it needs to be shut down. Otherwise anarchy reigns supreme.

On forums where the membership is younger and immature, a strong mgmt team is critical. Here at BITOG the membership is older and reasonably grown up, so the childish antics are uncommon compared to other forums. Plus there seems to be enough mgmt staff to cover all the bases.

Trolls and troublemakers need to be dealt with swiftly. I don't care if they have 10 posts or 10,000. They need to be engaged publicly and privately. If they won't change their tune, a time out or permaban is called for.

As a forum gets bigger, the overall quality of posts and discussions decreases. That can frustrate senior members who have discussed the same topics many times. I see no way to improve or change this. Either a forum generates new blood in the form of new members, or its gets stale and dies on the vine. Sometimes a little time away can help bring a new perspective, especially if you've been involved with the same forum on a daily basis.

These places are like little virtual communities. Many of the same problems crop up here as they do in real life. It takes a solid team of officials along with "residents" who want to be involved in the community to make this a well run forum. Problems will increase with membership - it's how they're dealt with that makes or breaks a forum.
_________________________
'98 Dodge Ram 1500, PYB 10-30

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#828980 - 02/09/07 09:49 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: psudaytona]
Warlord Offline


Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 888
Loc: Southwestern Alberta
There will always be flame wars on forums. that's half the fun for some people. I know that I sometimes argue alot but only because it upsets me that every post about a domestic vehicle is usually followed by a foolish and uneccessary insult agaist the company or vehicle. There is no reason for this, if someone wants to discuss the new g8 or saturn aura or whatever let them discuss it. I know alot of people feel the same way I do but are tired of arguing with these rude posters.
_________________________
06 Avalanche - PetroCan Duron 0w30 and VWB 5w30 mix
06 Honda 599 - 76 Fleet Supreme EC 15w40
06 Husqvarna WR125 Motul 710
98 Suzuki Dr 350SE - XD3 0w40

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#828981 - 02/09/07 10:52 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Warlord]
Ramblin Fever Offline


Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 1627
Loc: Timberline
I think sometimes the problem is boredism; honestly. That could be the reason for the rudeness as well as the *stupid* questions.

Think about it, there isn't a single question in this whole forum that hasn't been asked before, SEVERAL times before, or researched and researched, - at least the ones involving oil & filters anyway.

I consider the mechanical/maintenance and tire threads to be different in the fact that not one particular question matches the question you may have.

I sometimes wonder if the oil/filter recommendation forums are pointless, I mean, there is a lot of fantastic information - but, there lies the point, honestly speaking how much more research from anyone of us can actually occur in the posting of any questions/answers in the oil recommendation forum that hasn't already been researched, tried, and tested?

If your car calls for 5w-20, use it; if it's noisey on this oil, try another; if it's using excessive oil, try a thicker viscosity.

What I'm saying is there really isn't any information or ground we haven't covered, just the same information over and over because it IS in fact present already in the questions/answers given, and I think is proving to be boring/tiresome so maybe people are posting questions a tad differently to see if any new research/experience comes about.

Also, who would qualify as an expert; I'd say over 85% of the members are expert by personal experiences or trial/error over the course of many years.

Yes, I do agree with the rudeness getting a little out of hand, along with those that believe they are 100% right simply because their car prefers something different then the next guy who wants to use something different then him.

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#828982 - 02/09/07 12:49 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Ramblin Fever]
Ugly3 Offline


Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 2635
Loc: Chicago
Come on, name names, who are the "bad guys"?
_________________________
No oil is thin enough at cold startup.

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#828983 - 02/09/07 12:53 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: moribundman]
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Quote:

Is that the smell threadlocker in the air?




I shouldn't post under the influence. Yikes!

If anybody needs a translation, let me know.

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#828984 - 02/09/07 04:13 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: moribundman]
farrarfan1 Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 1491
Loc: Indiana
Quote:

Quote:

Is that the smell threadlocker in the air?




I shouldn't post under the influence. Yikes!

If anybody needs a translation, let me know.



Actually the first time I read it it made perfect sense. Probably for the same reason it made sense to you when you typed it.
_________________________
05 Chevy Uplander Valvoline Synpower 5W30
10 Kia Soul factory fill

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#828985 - 02/09/07 05:35 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: farrarfan1]
Happy Birthday Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46548
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
My small brain automatically inserted the "of" so no need to slam Mori for another "typo".

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#828986 - 02/09/07 05:39 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: farrarfan1]
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Quote:

Actually the first time I read it it made perfect sense. Probably for the same reason it made sense to you when you typed it.




I suppose we could have worked as an encrypter/decrypter team for Bletchley Park. How's your Navajo? Yah-te!

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#828987 - 02/09/07 05:41 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Pablo]
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Quote:

My small brain automatically inserted the "of" so no need to slam Mori for another "typo".




Funny dat. Especially because you totally bungled your post about Photoshop a few minutes ago. AM ale?


Edited by moribundman (02/09/07 05:42 PM)

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#828988 - 02/09/07 06:00 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: moribundman]
cmhj Offline


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 1168
Loc: SE Pa
Thinking a self labotomy might be in order.
_________________________
No PC fees paid out to Amsoil dealers from me! NEVER EVER!!!

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#828989 - 02/09/07 06:14 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: cmhj]
4esorselrahc Offline


Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 570
Loc: MS
Manliness. That's all it is...

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#828990 - 02/09/07 06:51 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: moribundman]
Happy Birthday Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46548
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Nope. Written as intended, Dr. Noro, I mean Mori.

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#828991 - 02/09/07 06:57 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Pablo]
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
You edited it! It doesn't say so. What black magic is that?

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#828992 - 02/09/07 07:01 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: moribundman]
Happy Birthday Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46548
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Describe "totally bungled"?

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#828993 - 02/09/07 10:01 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Pablo]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
I guess it's never safe to discuss in mixed company sex, religion, politics, and....motor oil.

I look at it as a bunch of guys, sitting around drinking coffee, discussing auto lubrication, maintenance, and performance.

Should be harmless enough...right?
_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#828994 - 02/09/07 10:23 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 6820
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Quote:

I guess it's never safe to discuss in mixed company sex, religion, politics, and....motor oil.

I look at it as a bunch of guys, sitting around drinking coffee, discussing auto lubrication, maintenance, and performance.

Should be harmless enough...right?




Lou, you can add economics & trade to that list as well, since they can be just as volatile (IF not MORE) than the ones you've mentioned.
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 170K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (80/20 mix)
Amsoil EaO 64 filter
Millers CRX 75-140 NT/4oz. XL-3
Ravenol MTF-2

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#828995 - 02/09/07 10:35 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Pablo]
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Quote:

Describe "totally bungled"?




Un otro día.

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#828996 - 02/09/07 11:10 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
q2bruiser Offline


Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Parker, CO
I've been a member for a while and have noticed the hostility growing in recent times. It's like if someone does not like a post or the subject of the post, they slam the poster instead of just "movin on".

If a reader does not like a post, then quit reading it.

JKH
_________________________
Your voice is like any other muscle, use it or lose it.

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#828997 - 02/10/07 03:51 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: q2bruiser]
BrianWC Offline


Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 6873
Loc: Louisiana
I don't know if it's just me but it doesn't seem like threads are as aggressively moderated as the used to be. I dunno if a more "hands off" approach was taken or not on purpose, but that's what it seems like. Even a thread like this wouldn't have lasted too darn long. Lol, I lost posting privileges for less than I see in many threads now.

The M1 "revelation" also seemed to have awaken some latent nastiness in many otherwise civil posters.

Another thing that's discouraged me from threads is the fact that people have gotten so nasty and upfront about credentials and background. I know that this forum was founded to help cut through the #@$%! and advance knowledge but some people get chased out of topics unnecessarily just b/c they don't have the 40/100 cSt viscosities of all M1 grades memorized or tattooed on a special body part.
_________________________
2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L
2014 Ford Mustang GT

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#828998 - 02/10/07 07:01 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: BrianWC]
alreadygone Offline


Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 3161
Loc: North Arkansas
Haven't yet typed anything I wouldn't look a man in the eye and say.

Bob
_________________________
To which version of reality would you like to convert me?

Bob

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#828999 - 02/10/07 05:28 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: alreadygone]
SargeGTO Offline


Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 802
Loc: Rio Grande Valley
Years ago we had some GM engineers come to one of the shops I was associated with. Started out as a very friendly meeting of the minds between Shade Tree race mechanics and "educated" engineers. Lot of info sharing turned into a #@$%! contest on what worked on paper and what worked in the real world. I see that here alot. Anybody sharing experiance is jumped on by the "engineer" wanting documentation and dismissing any experiance one may of had as internet rumor. Of course their word is gospel and have links to prove it Oh well....I think the internet allows normally mellow people to assume an agressive posture sometimes that really hides the value of what it is they are trying to say. Bottom line is if a person doesnt want to add any value to a thread they should just move on. IMHO.

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#829000 - 02/10/07 07:19 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: BrianWC]
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
Quote:

Another thing that's discouraged me from threads is the fact that people have gotten so nasty and upfront about credentials and background.




I don't need to see people's stinking badges.

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#829001 - 02/10/07 07:49 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: moribundman]
Triple_Se7en Offline


Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 6305
Loc: 1/2 hr. north of Detroit
Quote:


I don't need to see people's stinking badges.




I don't carry an oil badge - yet some folks here still think my replies stink.

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#829002 - 02/10/07 08:14 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: moribundman]
LuckyDog Offline


Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Louisiana, USA
I'm certainly no expert on oil. I come here to read what other people, who do know a lot about oil, have to say about the different lubrication options. The only harsh incivility that I've noticed on this board came from a member who has already stated, in this thread, that he/she is "a cranky, disgruntled member". I'm not easily offended, so long as I'm not personally attacked. And that's never happened, here. I think that a simple "Newbie Intro" that everyone is required to read before being allowed to post in the forum, that explains the "search" function and STRONGLY recommends it's use, might be a good idea. Other than that, keep posting and I'll gather what I can, sorting the expertise from the effluent.
BTW, just don't ever get as touchy and irrational as the juvenile moderators for the RV forum that is linked to from Good Sam, Trailer Life, and Camping World! One "moderator", whose typings were very childish, threatened to sue me because another poster said something rude about someone who was in a link posted by yet a different user!?!?!? I bailed on that forum!!! Life is irrational enough without that.

I enjoy the sanity, here, and the fact that I feel welcome.
_________________________
For it's defenders, Freedom has a flavor that the defended will never know
'02 F350 CC DRW 7.3L PSD

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#829003 - 02/10/07 10:02 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LuckyDog]
Mokanic Offline


Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 1563
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Maybe we are spending too much time in front of a monitor???

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#829004 - 02/10/07 10:12 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Mokanic]
Triple_Se7en Offline


Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 6305
Loc: 1/2 hr. north of Detroit
Quote:

Maybe we are spending too much time in front of a monitor???




My wife told me a few years ago that I spend too much time in front of my TV.... so I switched!

Really thou, in perspective, when you look at how much time folks spend in front of their big-screens watching trash on TV, computers are significantly more educational.... I think!

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#829005 - 02/11/07 12:49 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Triple_Se7en]
ekpolk Offline
The Regenerator


Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 8881
Loc: Pensacola FL
Tastes Great! Less Filling!

Less Civil! More Entertaining!

Just kidding, of course, but hey, when you've got two lawyers* gouging each other's eyeballs out for all to see**, then hey -- it's both!

Less Civil!! More entertaining!!

* One of them being me, of course...

**See the MMWA thread, concurrent, in this sub-forum.
_________________________
09 Camry Hybrid, Black (M1 5w-20, std flavor).
07 Avalon XLS, Cassis Pearl (GC 0w-30).
04 Prius, Black (GC -- 0w-30).

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#829006 - 02/11/07 12:59 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: ekpolk]
Ugly3 Offline


Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 2635
Loc: Chicago
Come on, name the names of the bad guys. Be a man, call a dog a dog!
_________________________
No oil is thin enough at cold startup.

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#829007 - 02/11/07 01:49 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Ugly3]
ekpolk Offline
The Regenerator


Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 8881
Loc: Pensacola FL
Quote:

Come on, name the names of the bad guys. Be a man, call a dog a dog!




Oh sheesh! I already named myself!!! Too much trouble to click over to the other thread and see who the other troublemaker lawyer is?!?
_________________________
09 Camry Hybrid, Black (M1 5w-20, std flavor).
07 Avalon XLS, Cassis Pearl (GC 0w-30).
04 Prius, Black (GC -- 0w-30).

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#829008 - 02/11/07 02:47 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: q2bruiser]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12781
Loc: UT
Quote:

I've been a member for a while and have noticed the hostility growing in recent times. It's like if someone does not like a post or the subject of the post, they slam the poster instead of just "movin on".

If a reader does not like a post, then quit reading it.

JKH




I disagee.

This is a place to find out infomation. Not myths.

If the poster posts something that is untrue, your saying that we should just forget it and allow people who are visiting BITOG for the FACTS to read the garbage as fact.

The main reason why we are loosing "old timers" and folks that we really should not be on this board is because of the posters who are not checked.

Facts are hard to come by more and more around here.

I guess as someone who has been here more than most, I must be one of the rude ones...

Take care, Bill

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#829009 - 02/11/07 02:56 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Bill in Utah]
GMorg Offline


Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 2326
Loc: Mizzou-land
I want to be on Bill's team.


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#829010 - 02/11/07 03:07 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: GMorg]
farrarfan1 Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 1491
Loc: Indiana
Bill, you are absolutely dead on with your assessment. Except you are not rude.
_________________________
05 Chevy Uplander Valvoline Synpower 5W30
10 Kia Soul factory fill

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#829011 - 02/11/07 03:24 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Bill in Utah]
BrianWC Offline


Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 6873
Loc: Louisiana
I don't think bad knowledge should go uncorrected. I just think the way people go about it has gotten testier.

For example, you could patiently point out "Hey, that's been proven wrong." or "I don't think the data on here supports that."

verses

"I wish people would quit posting useless #@$%! and myth" or "I just wasted 30 seconds of my life reading this post"

Maybe it's just the fact that our membership has grown so big and gotten a lot younger.


I mean, I've been here on and off since 03 and I've been on saabcentral.com in a much greater capacity for the same amount of time. I know people post the same thing over and over again. But they don't have the benefit of being here that long. The only way to stop getting the same useless posts is to stop allowing new members. We have plenty of FAQ sections on my saab forum and it never really helped much. You still get the same posts.
_________________________
2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L
2014 Ford Mustang GT

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#829012 - 02/11/07 03:38 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Bill in Utah]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Quote:

If the poster posts something that is untrue, your saying that we should just forget it and allow people who are visiting BITOG for the FACTS to read the garbage as fact.




Bill, I want to emphasize that my original point was not that garbage should be allowed to be presented as fact. It was that it can be refuted and corrected with tact, diplomacy, and dignity. (fwiw, I've always felt you do that as well as anyone.)

Name-calling, hostility, profanity, and derision are unnecessary and only serve to lower the class of this forum. (Not you...just some.) I just saw a trend and thought I'd share my humble opinion.

A little patience and politeness can go a long way. And the noobs should spend a little time reading before they post. And when they do post, they should avoid coming with "guns-a-blazing" to avoid looking silly and getting flamed.

_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#829013 - 02/11/07 03:52 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12781
Loc: UT
Lou,

My reply was not directed towards you.

I was just saying that the thought of "if you don't like it, move on" I can not agree with.

Quote:

I want to be on Bill's team.




and
Quote:

Bill, you are absolutely dead on with your assessment. Except you are not rude.




Thanks guys!

(I'll try harder about the rude part!)

Take care, Bill

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#829014 - 02/11/07 01:30 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
Merkava_4 Online   content


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 8833
Loc: Clovis, CA
I'm going to try to get up to a 500 post count without having an opinion whatsoever; I realize though that it'll take longer.

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#829015 - 02/11/07 06:47 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Bill in Utah]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Quote:

Lou,

My reply was not directed towards you.

I was just saying that the thought of "if you don't like it, move on" I can not agree with.




Oh, I understand. I was just trying to clarify the point. You're one of the good guys, Bill!
_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#829016 - 02/12/07 07:14 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
Propflux01 Offline


Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 3057
Loc: Arkansastan
But it does seem that sometimes if you make facts that make certain items or sponsers here look less than excellent, there is punishment due or thread deletions. And not necessarily from the posters involved being rude, either....
_________________________
2013 Hyundai Elantra- both killed by tornado
2013 Hyundai Elantra GT

A 55 Gallon Drum And A Shovel Can Solve A lot of Life's Little "Problems"

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#829017 - 02/12/07 09:29 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Propflux01]
Aldaris Offline


Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 1174
Loc: United States
Except for broken-record Toyota haters (dailydriver is the first to come to mind but there are a few more), it's usually pretty darn good.
_________________________
Go around, windshear ahead!
WINDSHEAR AHEAD, WINDSHEAR AHEAD

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#829018 - 02/13/07 01:57 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Aldaris]
Mokanic Offline


Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 1563
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Quote:

Except for broken-record Toyota haters (dailydriver is the first to come to mind but there are a few more), it's usually pretty darn good.




True,so very true...

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#829019 - 02/13/07 02:31 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Mokanic]
okiedokie Offline


Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 133
Loc: SD
I read the 1st page and the last page of this thread and now I'm gonna be dumb enough to add my $.02 because even though I'll never get these two minutes of my life back, I have nothing better to do at work right now. I've said it before and I'll say it again:

You people REALLY freakin'

Get over yourselves, for cryin' out loud. It's an Internet forum. Sheeesh.

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#829020 - 02/13/07 02:54 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: okiedokie]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Quote:

I read the 1st page and the last page of this thread and now I'm gonna be dumb enough to add my $.02 because even though I'll never get these two minutes of my life back, I have nothing better to do at work right now. I've said it before and I'll say it again:

You people REALLY freakin'

Get over yourselves, for cryin' out loud. It's an Internet forum. Sheeesh.




There's always room for polite discourse, no matter whether it's an internet forum or a dinner party. If it really cracks you up that much, continue to visit for the comic relief. Or take your $.02 and two-minutes elsewhere.

Either way, it won't affect the rest of us and we'll continue onward and upward.

Have a nice day!
_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#829021 - 02/13/07 03:24 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: okiedokie]
BrianWC Offline


Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 6873
Loc: Louisiana
Quote:

I read the 1st page and the last page of this thread and now I'm gonna be dumb enough to add my $.02 because even though I'll never get these two minutes of my life back,




Hmm, sounds familiar......

I have nothing better to do at work right now. I've said it before and I'll say it again:

You people REALLY freakin'

Get over yourselves, for cryin' out loud. It's an Internet forum. Sheeesh.




This is the perfect example of the kinda attitude that didn't used to show up on BITOG. That's what made it such a civil place. Nobody wants this place to turn into VW Vortex. Or, they didn't used to.....
_________________________
2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L
2014 Ford Mustang GT

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#829022 - 02/13/07 07:27 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Aldaris]
Bryanccfshr Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 5414
Loc: Durango, Co
As a participant I would like to see a slightly heavier hand in moderation. I thought that posting brand specific posts would illustrate the issue here at BITOG with name brand oils and cars. Obviously nothing has happened other than an elevation in Rhetoric I am reporting my post is a plea to cut this material out. Serious moderation leaderdship is needed. Tony is seriously missed in this regard.

Who is in charge here? Moderation of a forum is a difficult duty but who is guiding the moderation?
The forum needs reigned in. If we limit the scope of discussion we can answer the many basic oil related threads intelligently. I see and participate in many threads where too much energy is spent on topics not related to the original intent of the forum.
_________________________
Integrity is what we do when no one's looking.

2010 FJ Cruiser
Mobil 1 0w20 10k mile or 1 year WECF OCI's
2012 BMW F30 with the new N20
Tbd

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#829023 - 02/13/07 04:00 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Bryanccfshr]
okiedokie Offline


Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 133
Loc: SD
Or better yet, we should CENSOR all content and try to limit membership to only people who think and act like us. Then after we finish culling the undesireables from this forum we can move on to other automotive forums, the rest if the Internet and eventually the population in general, until we control the whole world! Ahh ha ha haa haa (diabolical laugh).


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#829024 - 02/13/07 04:29 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: okiedokie]
BrianWC Offline


Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 6873
Loc: Louisiana
Well, actually, internet forums are privately owned entities and if that's the way the owner sees fit to run it, it's their business. Something attracted 16,000 plus people to this website. I'm sure it wasn't smart-alec commentary.
_________________________
2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L
2014 Ford Mustang GT

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#829025 - 02/13/07 04:59 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: BrianWC]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Quote:

Well, actually, internet forums are privately owned entities and if that's the way the owner sees fit to run it, it's their business. Something attracted 16,000 plus people to this website. I'm sure it wasn't smart-alec commentary.




Thank you, Brian. It's people like Okie who come on here and in only a few short posts manage to make a complete arse out of themselves by shooting off their mouths (keyboards) and talking down to everyone else. Interesting how a thread about making things a little more pleasant for everyone gets twisted into us trying to control the thoughts and actions of everyone else on the internet and in the world.

It's that kind of person that brings down the collective IQ of this or any forum.
_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#829026 - 02/13/07 05:10 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: BrianWC]
HawkeyeScott Offline


Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 556
Loc: El Oeste
I've only been observing/participating in BITOG for a few months, so I can't speak to the perceived change in civility some of you have talked about. I will agree with those who've said the SEARCH process on BITOG seems a little unproductive at times.

I am no oil expert, but that's why I'm here. I appreciate the knowledge others have (and are willing to share with a rookie). But I do hold my breath everytime I submit, for fear I'll be reminded that my silly question has already been answered. Trust me, knowing the information I want is likely already on here, but not being able to locate it is frustrating. A few pages back, someone's post gave me an idea...

What about a new forum that's only for these elementary questions that some of us less-than-experts have? Then it's up to the "experts" on here to read those questions, but only if they want to. Further, they can share their expertise, but only if they want to. That way, my silly entry-level questions aren't clogging up the other threads, meant for elevated discussions about the most refined lubricants and lubricant accessories.

I don't know. It may not work. Anywho, I appreciate the chance to be a member. Thanks to you guys, I'm now buying AAP filters (and I know what AAP means), searching high and low for great oil deals, and my wife thinks I've TOTALLY lost it. Thanks BITOG!

(Clicking 'Submit', holding breath...)

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#829027 - 02/13/07 05:22 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: BrianWC]
okiedokie Offline


Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 133
Loc: SD
Quote:

Well, actually, internet forums are privately owned entities and if that's the way the owner sees fit to run it, it's their business.



Yep. Privately owned entities that are OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. And of course they may reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. On one end you have a chaotic free-for-all, and on the other you have discrimination, censorship, and eventually you are out of business. Find a happy medium somewhere and don't worry, be happy. Or grow up. Take your pick.

OBTW, I almost forgot: To answer the original poster's question, it's just you.


Edited by okiedokie (02/13/07 05:25 PM)

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#829028 - 02/13/07 05:55 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
okiedokie Offline


Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 133
Loc: SD
Quote:

It's people like Okie who come on here and in only a few short posts manage to make a complete arse out of themselves...



Everyone serves an important purpose in life, even if it is only to be a bad example.

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#829029 - 02/13/07 06:10 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: okiedokie]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Quote:

Quote:

Well, actually, internet forums are privately owned entities and if that's the way the owner sees fit to run it, it's their business.



Yep. Privately owned entities that are OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. And of course they may reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. On one end you have a chaotic free-for-all, and on the other you have discrimination, censorship, and eventually you are out of business. Find a happy medium somewhere and don't worry, be happy. Or grow up. Take your pick.

OBTW, I almost forgot: To answer the original poster's question, it's just you.




You're neither clever nor funny. If you read more than the first and last posts, you would see that others feel the same way.

Move on, noob.
_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#829030 - 02/13/07 06:34 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: okiedokie]
BrianWC Offline


Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 6873
Loc: Louisiana
Hey man. It's called context. You obviously don't have any. This forum has been a great place for a lot of people stretching back to 2002. For someone to come in here after a month and tell everyone the way things need to be run is pretty amusing.

The kind of comments you are making are exactly the ones that used to be quietly deleted and made this forum a much more enjoyable place. And...as I said, it has been a happy medium for several thousand people for quite some time.
_________________________
2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L
2014 Ford Mustang GT

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#829031 - 02/13/07 06:43 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? *DELETED* [Re: BrianWC]
okiedokie Offline


Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 133
Loc: SD
Post deleted by Arkapigdiesel

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#829032 - 02/13/07 06:48 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: okiedokie]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Quote:

Waaaa, waa, waa, my forum's gone bad. Boooo hoo hoo.
Go e-thug somebody else. I don't think you're up to the task here. Maybe that toocrazy guy. Yeah, go get him on it.




_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#829033 - 02/13/07 07:01 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: farrarfan1]
Trucku Offline


Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 488
Loc: Queens, NY
What happened the old timers forget they used to be newbies too and ask the same questions.

I think some effort in researching a question is in order for the newbies, but have you tried the search function

I Love the site so far. I have to admit in seeing some people getting snippy or too tired of getting off there high horse to help a newbie. If a member is clearly not showing any effort, I don't think getting nasty is the way to go. Just leave the post alone and let it disappear into the abyss with no hits.

Again this is a great site and I have learned a lot just surfing around and reading posts with interesting titles. Some were great information and some were way over my head.So far I find people helpful and some go above and beyond to help (Gary Allen). If someone has nothing to say good or helpful about a thread I started that may not be up to their standards, I will be happy to tell them not to waste my time and post in it.

Great Site, be nice, stay warm and if your already warm...d@mn you...


Edited by Trucku (02/13/07 07:59 PM)

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#829034 - 02/13/07 10:30 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Trucku]
Auto-Union Offline


Registered: 02/01/06
Posts: 3833
Loc: NEPA
How about a ~negative~ thread-ranking system? How about a Forum that bad posts get kicked-down to....if they get 10+ members who rank them negatively? How about fixing the Search?

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#829035 - 02/13/07 10:33 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: Auto-Union]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Quote:

How about a ~negative~ thread-ranking system? How about a Forum that bad posts get kicked-down to....if they get 10+ members who rank them negatively? How about fixing the Search?




Preach on, bro! I'm with you!
_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#829036 - 02/13/07 10:48 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
oldmaninsc Offline


Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 1202
Loc: California
Quote:

Quote:

Yep. Privately owned entities that are OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. And of course they may reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. On one end you have a chaotic free-for-all, and on the other you have discrimination, censorship, and eventually you are out of business. Find a happy medium somewhere and don't worry, be happy. Or grow up. Take your pick.

OBTW, I almost forgot: To answer the original poster's question, it's just you.




You're neither clever nor funny. If you read more than the first and last posts, you would see that others feel the same way.

Move on, noob.




Exactly Lou! Thanks Okie - you have proven the point so many were making.
I think this is pretty sad. People are having a serious conversation about how to improve this already great forum, and some (I wouldn't type what I really think) comes in just to make fun of people.


Edited by oldmaninsc (02/13/07 10:51 PM)
_________________________
2004 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
2005 Chevy Trailblazer EXT (SOLD)
2005 Toyota Camry LE
1995 Ford Aerostar EXT
1998 Ford F-150

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#829037 - 02/13/07 11:06 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: oldmaninsc]
D189379 Offline


Registered: 09/01/04
Posts: 1267
Loc: Canada City, Canada
Wow. This place suddenly filled up with a bunch of over sensitive old women. When are we adding the menopause section?

P.S. The internet is full of A-holes. Get over it.

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#829038 - 02/13/07 11:11 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: D189379]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Quote:

Wow. This place suddenly filled up with a bunch of over sensitive old women. When are we adding the menopause section?

P.S. The internet is full of A-holes. Get over it.




_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#829039 - 02/13/07 11:21 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
TR3-2001SE Offline


Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1759
Loc: Elizabeth City NC
We have lost several functions that are part of this. We can no longer edit a post after posting. The search function is not what is use to be 3-4 years ago. Maybe not the complete answer but it is part of this issue.

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#829040 - 02/13/07 11:32 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: TR3-2001SE]
Footpounds Offline


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 534
Loc: DFW Texas
Personally, I would like to see the "post count" go away. I have seen this on other forums where, conscious or not, the goal is to accumulate posts. It leads to people responding with posts such as "I agree" or "yes!" or even the rude or condescending comment. It adds nothing to the topic but, hey, you get credit for another post! I think it also, conscious or not, leads people who have 5000+ (do they have a life!?) thinking they are somehow "superior" to someone who has 75 posts. Eliminate the "post count" and everyone is equal. These are just my thoughts and they are worth what you paid for them!
_________________________
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"

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#829041 - 02/13/07 11:34 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
okiedokie Offline


Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 133
Loc: SD
Quote:

Quote:

Wow. This place suddenly filled up with a bunch of over sensitive old women. When are we adding the menopause section?

P.S. The internet is full of A-holes. Get over it.









Can we please have an emoticon that says "Please don't feed the sensitive old woman?"



Edited by okiedokie (02/13/07 11:36 PM)

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#829042 - 02/13/07 11:45 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: okiedokie]
BrianWC Offline


Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 6873
Loc: Louisiana
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Wow. This place suddenly filled up with a bunch of over sensitive old women. When are we adding the menopause section?

P.S. The internet is full of A-holes. Get over it.









Can we please have an emoticon that says "Please don't feed the sensitive old woman?"






_________________________
2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L
2014 Ford Mustang GT

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#829043 - 02/13/07 11:49 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: BrianWC]
okiedokie Offline


Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 133
Loc: SD
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Wow. This place suddenly filled up with a bunch of over sensitive old women. When are we adding the menopause section?

P.S. The internet is full of A-holes. Get over it.









Can we please have an emoticon that says "Please don't feed the sensitive old woman?"











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#829044 - 02/13/07 11:51 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: okiedokie]
BrianWC Offline


Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 6873
Loc: Louisiana
what's the point....
_________________________
2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L
2014 Ford Mustang GT

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#829045 - 02/13/07 11:53 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: BrianWC]
BrianWC Offline


Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 6873
Loc: Louisiana
whatever man. have fun
_________________________
2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L
2014 Ford Mustang GT

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#829046 - 02/13/07 11:54 PM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: okiedokie]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
Quote:

Can we please have an emoticon that says "Please don't feed the sensitive old woman?"




_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#829047 - 02/14/07 12:04 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
LouDawg Offline


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 1483
Loc: SW Indiana
"In Internet terminology, a TROLL is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. Trolls can also be existing members of such a community that rarely post and often contribute no useful information to the thread, but instead make argumentative posts in an attempt to discredit another person, more often than not based on what they thought was said rather than what was actually said by the other person, concentrating almost exclusively on facts irrelevant to the point of the conversation, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. The latter are primarily, though not always juveniles from other countries who don't have enough understanding of the language to realize that there is nothing to argue about, the points are truly irrelevant to the conversation, or they just don't care and are simply trying to cause the other poster grief with their frivolous and irrelevant arguments."

Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

See also Ad Hominem: "An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument. It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument."

Textbook!

(Ref: Wikipedia)
_________________________
2007 Honda Accord EX-L, 3.0L V6 (PP 5W-20)
2007 Ford Escape XLS, 2.3L I4 (MC 5W-20)

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#829048 - 02/14/07 12:27 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: LouDawg]
D189379 Offline


Registered: 09/01/04
Posts: 1267
Loc: Canada City, Canada
Quote:

Quote:

Wow. This place suddenly filled up with a bunch of over sensitive old women. When are we adding the menopause section?

P.S. The internet is full of A-holes. Get over it.









Tell you what. How about we plan a girls night? We'll do pedicures, eat ice cream and chocolate, and talk about how insensitive our husbands are.

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#829049 - 02/14/07 01:05 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: D189379]
SargeGTO Offline


Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 802
Loc: Rio Grande Valley

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#829050 - 02/14/07 01:44 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: D189379]
BrianWC Offline


Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 6873
Loc: Louisiana
Quote:

Tell you what. How about we plan a girls night? We'll do pedicures, eat ice cream and chocolate, and talk about how insensitive our husbands are.




Tell you what, just keep on proving the point at hand.
_________________________
2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L
2014 Ford Mustang GT

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#829051 - 02/14/07 01:53 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? *DELETED* [Re: BrianWC]
okiedokie Offline


Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 133
Loc: SD
Post deleted by Arkapigdiesel

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#829052 - 02/14/07 03:49 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: okiedokie]
sxg6 Offline


Registered: 05/23/04
Posts: 2160
Loc: CT
Well, to be honest i think the collective IQ at bitog has signifigantly dropped since i first joined. Don't get me wrong, im probably responsible for dropping it a few points myself. I guess what i'm trying to say is there is less facts, and more opinions trying to be passed as facts. I'm sure i've done this a few times, but all the time, and the same threads over and over again is just getting a bit old.

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#829053 - 02/14/07 03:57 AM Re: Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me? [Re: sxg6]
Auto-Union Offline


Registered: 02/01/06
Posts: 3833
Loc: NEPA
Members themselves need to step-up and refrain from tit-for-tats and keep the quality of their own posts as high and on-subject as possible. Every new person who comes here goes through one a few of the possible paths. I see both good and bad examples right here in this thread.

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