Magnason-Moss Act and Amsoil

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What are your thoughts on extended drains and Amsoil?
This info was on a Jobbers/Amsoil Website. API only?, any oil? etc etc.....Did not get an answer on another post so I thought I would pursue a conversation here.

Warranties and the Magnuson-Moss Act

You have a customer who is interested in AMSOIL motor oil, but he's concerned that using a synthetic oil or extending his oil drain interval will void his warranty.

Your customer has no need for concern. Congress in 1975 enacted the federal Magnuson-Moss Act to regulate written consumer product warranties. An examination of the law reveals warranties remain intact when AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants are used.

The law was meant to give consumers detailed information about warranty coverage before they buy.

Congress charged the Federal Trade Commission with creation of the specifics of the law.

The FTC set down three rules under the Act: the Disclosure Rule, the Pre-Sale Availability Rule and the Dispute Resolution Rule.

Those rules require warrantors to title their written warranty as either full or limited, provide a single, clear and easy-to-read document that spells out certain information about coverage and ensure that warranties are available where the products are sold so that consumers can read them before buying.

In passing the Act, Congress meant to give consumers access to warranty information, let consumers comparison shop for warranties, encourage warranty competition and promote timely and complete performance of warranty obligations.

While the Magnuson-Moss Act does not require manufacturers to provide a written warranty, it provides specific rules when one is provided. Among those provisions, FTC regulations state: (c) No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if (1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and (2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest. (15 U.S.C.2302(C))

That means your warranty stands when you use AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants.

Vehicle manufacturers recommend lubricants according to their viscosity grade and service classification. Any oil, whether its conventional petroleum motor oil or synthetic, meeting the correct viscosity grade, 5W-30 for example, and the current API and ILSAC North American service classifications may be used without affecting warranty coverage. AMSOIL motor oils are recommended for use in applications requiring these specifications. For more information on API licensing, go to Ask AMSOIL in the Dealer Zone.

Furthermore, the practice of extending oil drain intervals does not void warranties. Original equipment manufacturers pay or deny warranty claims based on the findings of failure analysis. To affect the vehicle warranty, the lubricant must be directly responsible for the failure. If the oil didn't cause the problem the warranty cannot be voided, regardless of brand or length of time in use.

Synthetic motor oil was introduced to the automotive public in 1972 by AMSOIL, INC., with the world's first API rated synthetic motor oil specially formulated for long service and superior performance and protection to that of conventional oils.

Nearly 30 years ago, AMSOIL synthetics represented a vision of the future and technology ahead of their time. Since then, every major engine oil manufacturer has introduced synthetic oils of their own. To be sure, many original equipment manufacturers would like you to believe you can only use their products. However, it s a violation of the consumer protections set forth in the Magnuson-Moss Act, unless they re willing to provide you those products free of charge.

AMSOIL offers a warranty that covers the cost of repair or replacement of a proven mechanically sound engine damaged as a result of using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil. However, it has never happened. Thirty years of experience proves AMSOIL can be installed in any vehicle with complete confidence.

AMSOIL further backs its products with action when a Dealer or customer reports being told their warranty is voided if they use synthetics.

If you have heard from any member of a business that the use of AMSOIL Motor Oil or the practice of extending drain intervals will void warranties, send AMSOIL all the details including the name of the business, business owner or manager and the individual making the claims, in a signed and dated letter. Send the letter to the Technical Services Department at corporate headquarters and an AMSOIL representative will send them a letter explaining the facts.

Access to the complete Magnuson-Moss Act is available on the Internet by key words Magnuson-Moss Act or Federal Trade Commission.
 
Ok, this is what I get out of this:

Amsoil was the first synthetic to API cert. Therfore, you can run there oil, even in extended drain circumstances, and as long as you run the type of oil the OEM wants (5-30,SE, etc) the OEM can't void your warranty if the oil did not cause the warranty issue.

and

Amsoil will cover everything if the OEM say's NOT>
 
Thank you for posting LCMX2. I don't know of anyone that has ever had a factory warranty denied when they have used AMSOIL for extended oil changes, and AMSOIL has been making 25,000 mile/1 year recommendations for 35 years. There are no warranty issues listed at the Better Business Bureau website. Plus you get a free AMSOIL warranty when the factory warrany expires, should AMSOIL ever fail. Seems like a great deal to me.
 
I have mixed feelings about this.

The M-M Act says that the manufacturer can't automatically void a warranty just because you have an aftermarket part (or modification) on your car. They have to PROVE that part (or mod) is what actually caused the problem. Fine. The issue as I see it is that if the manufacturer wants to play hardball, all they have to do is deny the claim and force you to take them to court. I don't know about y'all, but I don't have a lot of spare cash and time lying around, whereas Ford (or whomever) DOES. In fact, the car companies own whole flotillas of lawyers whose sole purpose in life is to deny warranty claims. They can just keep delaying things until I can't afford to fight them anymore and give up.

Being that I'm naturally bitter and cynical, maybe I'm being too pessimistic here, but I believe the M-M Act provides consumer protection ON PAPER that may not translate into the real world. I believe that you should EXPECT any modification or use of aftermarket parts CAN void your warranty, or at least make it difficult and/or expensive to collect on it, and proceed accordingly. In other words, don't mod it if you can't afford to pay out of pocket for any issues that may arise.
 
Just look up Cathy Covington in the search engine. Ultimately you can get things settled ..but it's not something that automatically happens. Although the manufacturer ultimately has to prove that anything you did was the cause of the failure, there's a built in obstacle course to get them to prove it. They have access to proprietary knowledge that you don't. They may have directives above the regional rep level to not disclose this knowledge without being compelled under a legal framework.

Essentially it will be designed in a manner to attempt to get you to give up. If you hang in there ..you'll usually prevail..but the mileage it takes out of you won't be easy.

Although I was glad that Cathy Covington got her new V10 engine in her motor home ..the situation was totally avoidable by doing the proper maintenance at the proper time. It was hard for me to sympathize with someone with a new motorhome under warranty ..towing motorcycles to go racing on weekends not changing their oil on time and leaving themselves open to a potential $10,000 whammy.
 
RF,

This is where AMSOIL would step in. If the OEM says AMSOIL is at fault, then AMSOIL will come in and prove them wrong. You don't have to take the manufacturer to court. AMSOIL will. And like AMSOIL states, no OEM has rejected warranty work because AMSOIL was used.
 
I have to agree.

I am using more expensive Hyundai oil filters on my Sonata instead of aftermarket. Why? Because they have a TSB that aftermarket filters can cause engine problems that void the warranty.

Under Magnusson-Moss, Hyundai would have to prove the aftermarket filter caused a problem. What if they say it did? How could I prove it didn't! It would be difficult. So it is with a lot of laws...on paper fine, but in our litigious society, another story.
liar.gif


John
 
I would have the same amount of faith in Amsoil as I would the engine manufacturer. You could wind up taking amsoil to court to get them to take ford to court.
frown.gif
 
FWIW, my GM dealer has a fleet customer who uses Amsoil exclusively and does 18,000 OCI's on all of their GM trucks (at the GM dealer).No warranty problems and the dealer actually did extract samples for UOA's which is how they came up with the 18k intervals. Now this dealer doesn't advertise this practice but those fleet trucks go 300k+.
 
Again, it's surely "doable" ..but be prepared by being in a defensible position before anything happens. If you're doing extended drains ..spend the $20 every so often to assure that the oil cannot be attributed to any failure. That doesn't mean no wear metals ..high or low ..it just establishes that the oil is suitable for continued use. The rest is, sorta ..and in terms of "failure", out of your control. We're dealing with vitamin therapy here with our tweaking in OEM usage ..the differences may enhance or detract from an engine's health ..but probably not much in terms of its lifespan ..and surely not in terms of catastrophic failure.
 
My management didn't really care what oil you ran, as long as it met the specs as REQUIRED by FoMoCo. My management didn't really worry about your oil change intervals as long as it was done at or before the REQUIRED intervals as specified in the owners manual/maintenance guide.

I foresee problems if you bring in your vehicle for warranty work for an oil/base engine related issue when you disregard maintence protocal. I don't care what dino/synthetic/semi-synthetic/miracle oil you run. A warranty is a legal contract between the manufacturer and the purchaser. If the purchaser follows the requirements, then the manufacturer is obliged to perform work under warranty.

I don't understand what people don't get about this, or how there is any room for argument about it. You violate a contract, you pay the consequences.
 
Most folks have never seen the legal contract with the mfg. I never have. I don't believe the owner's manual is the contract. When a bunch of lawyers are involved, nothing remains simple, & there is always wiggle room for whoever the highest paid lawyer is working for.
 
Quote:


{...snip...} A warranty is a legal contract between the manufacturer and the purchaser. If the purchaser follows the requirements, then the manufacturer is obliged to perform work under warranty.

I don't understand what people don't get about this, or how there is any room for argument about it. You violate a contract, you pay the consequences.




Yes and no. In the US, a new car wty is most certainly NOT just a simple contract. Yes, it is in some respects a contract, but the terms of that contract are largely driven by federal law (the MMWA and the regulations drawn up pursuant to the MMWA). This really is not an alien concept. Two (or more) parties can enter into contracts that call for them to do or not do virtually anything. On the other hand, it is well settled law that contracts do not trump the law. The MMWA (and associated regs) place the burden of proof on the manufacturer to show that something the owner did (or failed to do) was the cause of a claimed problem. So if the car maker wants to say that you have to change your oil exactly every 1000 miles or we'll never fix any other defect, they can say that all day long, and owners can pretty much ignore it and still have their repairs covered under wty, since the mfr could never (assuming modern cars and oils) prove that going to, for example, 5000 miles instead caused a failure.

So sure, you can call a wty a "contract," and in some sense it is, but it's a tightly regulated contract and any part of it that purports to go beyond what the regs allow will simply not be enforceable.

The last statement in the quoted post might better be phrased: "You violate a contract, and if the manufacturer can prove that your violation damaged your car, you pay the consequences."
 
Quote:


This is where AMSOIL would step in. If the OEM says AMSOIL is at fault, then AMSOIL will come in and prove them wrong. You don't have to take the manufacturer to court. AMSOIL will. And like AMSOIL states, no OEM has rejected warranty work because AMSOIL was used.




I have yet to hear that this has been done by Amsoil. By definition...Amsoil warrants that their oil will perform satisfactory in a "mechanically sound engine" If the engine blows up the engine is mechanically unsound by definition. The claim will then be on the owner and not Amsoil..by their definition. It will be difficult for Amsoil to argue against the manufacturer that the engine was "Unsound". Therefore they won't..I suspect.

I would like to see proof that dontradicts what I am saying.
 
Yes, the Amsoil warranty only comes into play if the failure was proven to be the use of Amsoil, while still sticking to their recommendations and nothing was damaging the oil.

If the Amsoil "failed" due to head gasket leak or abnormal fuel dilution, and your car is under warranty, it would then be up to the manufacturer, as it would be an engine issue.

Most likely the manufacturer would argue and say "if you changed your oil this wouldn't have happened" and that's when you reply "well if you made decent cars then this would not have happened." Regardless, this would obviously not be the fault of neglect or the use of Amsoil, it would be the fault of an engine malfunction.
 
lets say joe sixpack decides to buy a new car and change the oil every 25 thousand with amsoil. lats say at 45K miles the engine spins a rod bearing and self destructs.

assume the engine maker asks joe sixpack for his oil change reciepts and he shows them . 1 single change done at 25K miles. assume that the engine maker wants to deny the warranty because joe 6pack didnt change his oil every 5000 miles like he was told to. how could the engine maker proove that joe sixpacks lack of oil changes were responsible for his engine destruction? (lets assume for sake of arguement that the lack of oil changes was the culprit). if you do an oil analisys, obviously its going to show a heck of alot of wear metals. the engine did spin a rod bearing afterall, but even with an oil alanisys i dont see how its possible to proove amsoil was at fault (even if they were).

im sure amsoil has had warranty requests from various people at one time or another, so ultimately i wonder if amsoil hasnt paid out any warranty claims because it might not be possible to proove them at fault in these isolated indidents.
 
Amsoil's web site is pretty blatant when it comes to the claim being discussed here: "-this has never happened." (Referring to engine failure due to extended change intervals using Amsoil product). Never's pretty broad, guys.

On the other hand, I tend to be the type who agrees with "RF Overlord," at least to a degree. If an issue does arise, it is not apt to be a simple matter to get it resolved, particularly if something as expensive as engine replacement is involved. I would go to Amsoil in a heartbeat if I could really convince myself that I could do 25K / 1 year oil changes and have my car fixed quickly and easily if there's a problem. That may happen long, long ago, and in a galaxy far, far away, but my six-plus decades in this one have pretty much served to convince me it doesn't happen here.
 
Amsoil does pay a few warranty claims a year. Mostly as a good will gesture and to show they will pay off warranty claims. The oil has never shown to be the problem. One case I've heard of is that the vehicle owner never checked his oil level when his engine failed at 24,000 and no oil came out the drain plug.

Over 3,000 Texas State Police cars have been doing 20,000 mile Amsoil changes since 2000. No problems.

An oil can be shown to fail when the additives are depleted to a level that can cause failure. When the viscosity has sheared a level or two out of grade. Or if the wrong fluid was bottled or contaminated at the factory. Or the Poly Alpha Olefin was a bad batch.

Amsoil has warrantied 25,000 mile oil changes for the past 35 years.

The BBB has no complaints registered regarding warranty issues for the past 3 years http://www.wisconsin.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=5000854 .
 
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