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#772276 - 11/21/06 03:33 AM JASO FC = JASO FD now?
minet Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 6
Loc: mn
i read in snow tech that jaso fc /iso EGD now tests the same way as EDG+ and jaso fd?

any input?
i been buying some cheep oil but its jaso fc , so i felt its a good deal. but if FC and FD are worlds apart yet ,, it might not be such a deal.


oh and these emoticons rock ! :P

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#772277 - 11/21/06 06:54 AM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: minet]
minet Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 6
Loc: mn
this is the article


Two-Stroke Oil Ratings

Even today, there continues to be a huge number of questions regarding which oil is the one to use, which oil is better than another, and which oil is good enough. Let’s review the two-stroke lubricant standards; API TC; TCW; TC-W2; TC-W3; JASO FC; and ISO-L-EGD.
Non-racing two-stroke oils are usually given ratings from the API (American Petroleum Institute) “TC”, the BIA (Boating Industry Association) “TC-W” and currently the NMMA (National Marine Manufacturers Association) “TC-W2 and TC-W3”. The TC, TC-W and TCW2 standards are not current and do not meet the standards of today’s performance engines.

For a lubricant to receive one of these ratings it must pass certain levels of cleanliness and film strength. The lubricant is run at ratios up to 150:1 for specified times and loads. The engine is then examined for carbon deposits and for bearing and cylinder wear. If it meets the test criteria, the lubricant passes.

The Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Organization (JASO) developed a series of tests aimed at presenting more real-world conditions that a lubricant used in a motorcycle, snowmobile, ATV or PWC would encounter in use by consumers. They test for exhaust valve cleanliness, lubricity, exhaust smoke/blocking and initial torque. The highest JASO standard is FC. These tests are very difficult to pass and are a better indicator of a lubricants level of protection and performance that TC-W3 in non-marine applications.

European engine manufacturers tested TC-W3 and JASO lubricants and determined that their engines needed a cleaner lubricant and one that would withstand higher heat conditions. They established the ISO international standards for two stroke engine lubricants. Their first standard, ISO-L-EGB was comparable to the JASO FB standard. They later developed the ISO-L-EGC which is similar to the JASO FC rating.

They felt they needed an even tougher standard for the newest generation of performance two stroke engines. The ISO-L-EGD+ was created to establish a higher standard of detergency and ability to withstand higher levels of heat. The new test runs for 3 hours vs 1 hour for the previous test.

If a lubricant is certified ISO-L-EGD+ it has passed the most stringent tests set by American, Japanese and European engine manufacturers. Polaris recommends TC-W3 lubricants, Yamaha JASO FC and Ski-Doo/Sea-Doo requires ISO-L-EDG+ lubricants.

Examine the oil bottle of any oil in question and see what the highest level of certification is. It is generally accepted that if you use a lubricant that meets the ISO-L-EGD+ standard in your new snowmobile you will provide certified warranty compliance and protection.



AND this in later issue?


Two-Stroke Oil Ratings: Confusion

A small article titled “Two Stroke Oil Ratings” found in the Spring 2006 issue of SnowTech has created some confusion. Don Friedrich of Performance Parts informed us that there was no “ISO-L-EGD+” rating for two-stroke oils, as mentioned in the article.

Don is correct. Technically, the proper nomenclature is “ISO EGD”. This is the technically accurate spec per ISO, the use of the “L” and the “+” appears to be the cause of the confusion. Klotz uses “ISO-L-EGD+” on their oils, and that is where it came from.

ISO EGD is the “European” specification that slightly exceeds the “Japanese” JASO-FC. There is a new JASO-FD spec, as the ISO and JASO testing sequences have come closer together with the latest ‘FD’ and ‘EGD’ designations. Previously, the only difference was a 1 hour and 3 hour detergency - lubricity - ring groove - sticking test with JASO-FC and ISO-EGD respectively. Now, they are the same set of tests.

Manufacturers tend to ignore the JASO and ISO standards for marketing reasons. If they make specific recommendations to their customers to use an oil that meets a certain standard, then companies that specialize in lubricants can meet these standards and then claim “Factory Approved”. Therefore, the statement that “Ski-Doo/Sea-Doo requires ISO-L-EGD+ lubricants”, also found in the above mentioned article, is not completely accurate.

Ski-Doo/Sea-Doo has recommended the use of ISO EGD lubricants, but more specifically suggests the use of their own proprietary XPS lubricants as “no known equivalent is available” in reference to their SDI engines.

Meanwhile, you can quit looking for oils with a rating of ISO-L-EGD+. Instead, look for the ISO EGD or the new JASO-FD as the highest ratings available to 2-stroke oil manufacturers and users.







MY TEXT*****

soo

the real question is, if im reading this right

is ISO EGD/ JASO FC the same as ISO EGD+/JASO FD ?

from above

ISO EGD is the “European” specification that slightly exceeds the “Japanese” JASO-FC. There is a new JASO-FD spec, as the ISO and JASO testing sequences have come closer together with the latest ‘FD’ and ‘EGD’ designations. Previously, the only difference was a 1 hour and 3 hour detergency - lubricity - ring groove - sticking test with JASO-FC and ISO-EGD respectively. Now, they are the same set of tests.

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#772278 - 11/21/06 07:45 AM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: minet]
o2man98 Offline


Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 501
Loc: Manitowoc, Wisconsin
Quote:



is ISO EGD/ JASO FC the same as ISO EGD+/JASO FD ?

from above

ISO EGD is the “European” specification that slightly exceeds the “Japanese” JASO-FC. There is a new JASO-FD spec, as the ISO and JASO testing sequences have come closer together with the latest ‘FD’ and ‘EGD’ designations. Previously, the only difference was a 1 hour and 3 hour detergency - lubricity - ring groove - sticking test with JASO-FC and ISO-EGD respectively. Now, they are the same set of tests.




There is no such thing as an official ISO-EGD+ rating. The (+) was added by Klotz as their own rating.

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#772279 - 11/21/06 08:04 AM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: minet]
wileyE Offline


Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 1967
Loc: Kitsap, WA
I think you answered your own question? EGD=FD, FC had 2 hrs less time on the test run. Wouldn't assume FC is inferior though as many FC oils would pass the egd/fc without reformulation, as would many api-tc oils. Many of the companys may not choose to $ubmit for certification though as the buying market doesn't pay much attention to the specs (yet). Most buy on hype. Then there are blenders that use verbage like: "meets or exceeds jaso or iso", "use where faso or iso is specified", but they aren't actually certified oils. Doesn't make them inferior either, but it is somewhat misleading.

Skidoo or rotax runs durability testing. 300hr continious runs on the dyno is typical. The runs are done with their own oils that they have worked with castrol to develop. The the testing and parts inspections satisfy their standard it is only natural thay would like to see the same oil used in the field, also helps the dealers. FWIW I have never seen rotax state iso-egd like in the above article. It's bombardier oil or if not available an api-tc spec, and there is always a "never use tcw-3 outboard oil" warning. Since api-tc is a simular oil to jaso or iso I can see them being ok with it. Also Polaris got bit by tcw3 oils with warranty issues on some of the aircooled atvs, and did a scramble to reformulate back to api-tc.

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#772280 - 11/21/06 06:16 PM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: wileyE]
minet Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 6
Loc: mn
ahh hey thanks WileyE,
so if a oil is EGD AND JASO FC certified,

EDG is the same as JASO FD?

also is there a EDG offical icon like the JASO certified icon on lable?

what this all boils down to is using cheeper private lable oil vrs manufactuers oil at 4x the cost.. ie CITGO snow and ski vrs CAT apv, polaris ves, yamalube, and skidoo stuff.

if the lable claim JASO FC and EDG spec on the private lable stuff,/shrugg

thanks again sir for your comments

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#772281 - 11/21/06 06:33 PM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: minet]
minet Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 6
Loc: mn
got this from wikipedia~

JASO FC is a rating for a grade of oil.

Oils are granted the JASO FC certification by the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization. JASO FC is the highest rating for 2-stroke oils. JASO-FC oils leave little deposits and create very little smoke. They also pass lubricant and detergent tests. A JASO FC oil will have a rectangular seal. In the upper quarter of the rectangle will be a serial number and the lower three quarters will just have the letters M.

Again, there is an official JASO seal if the oil has been independently tested. The seal is a rectangle; in the upper quarter of the rectangle will be a serial number, and the lower three quarters will just have the letters MA.



*****************

ok now i was looking at the symbol on this quart of oil, and it doesnt have a seriel number.
so is it a fake symbol? :P
also i think that winikpedia isnt right with this, as if using JASO standards.

FD is now highest rating ?

or EGD

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#772282 - 11/29/06 05:17 PM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: minet]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10419
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Quote:

got this from wikipedia~

JASO FC is a rating for a grade of oil.

Oils are granted the JASO FC certification by the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization. JASO FC is the highest rating for 2-stroke oils. JASO-FC oils leave little deposits and create very little smoke. They also pass lubricant and detergent tests. A JASO FC oil will have a rectangular seal. In the upper quarter of the rectangle will be a serial number and the lower three quarters will just have the letters M.

Again, there is an official JASO seal if the oil has been independently tested. The seal is a rectangle; in the upper quarter of the rectangle will be a serial number, and the lower three quarters will just have the letters MA.



*****************

ok now i was looking at the symbol on this quart of oil, and it doesnt have a seriel number.
so is it a fake symbol? :P
also i think that winikpedia isnt right with this, as if using JASO standards.

FD is now highest rating ?

or EGD




There's no symbol on my Amsoil interceptor jug eather
but the site says "JASO FC" not much else..

so does that mean Amsoil wasn't independently tested???
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

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#772283 - 11/30/06 11:04 AM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: daman]
wileyE Offline


Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 1967
Loc: Kitsap, WA

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#772284 - 12/07/06 12:37 AM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: wileyE]
blano Offline


Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 687
Loc: Canada
"There's no symbol on my Amsoil interceptor jug eather
but the site says "JASO FC" not much else..

so does that mean Amsoil wasn't independently tested???"
Amsoil doesnt have a JASO certified oil.

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#772285 - 12/07/06 12:38 AM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: blano]
blano Offline


Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 687
Loc: Canada
I believe FD is on par with ISO EGD.

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#772286 - 12/07/06 01:47 AM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: blano]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10419
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Quote:

"There's no symbol on my Amsoil interceptor jug eather
but the site says "JASO FC" not much else..

so does that mean Amsoil wasn't independently tested???"






Quote:

Amsoil doesnt have a JASO certified oil.




they don't????

...it shure says so on ther website,

"INTERCEPTOR™ High Performance Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil (AIT)
A high-performance two-cycle oil with a performance emphasis on exhaust power vales. Excellent for all types of snowmobiles, motorcycles, personal watercraft, ATVs and jet boats. Contains high levels of detergent additives to prevent valve sticking. High quality replacement for manufacturer branded oils. Injector use or 50:1 premix. JASO FC, API TC"

Link
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

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#772287 - 12/07/06 07:08 AM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: daman]
blano Offline


Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 687
Loc: Canada
All JASO FC oils have a cert number on the bottle. Besides Scamsoil never claims certification this just put the terms jaso fc, api tc under their marketing blurb....how reputable.

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#772288 - 12/07/06 04:10 PM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: blano]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10419
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Quote:

All JASO FC oils have a cert number on the bottle. Besides Scamsoil never claims certification this just put the terms jaso fc, api tc under their marketing blurb....how reputable.




Ok so just so i get you,, your saying that amsoil is not
JASO certifyed???????

wouldn't that be false advertising then it's listed
in there ad???
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

Top
#772289 - 12/09/06 06:20 PM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: daman]
blano Offline


Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 687
Loc: Canada
"k so just so i get you,, your saying that amsoil is not
JASO certifyed???????

wouldn't that be false advertising then it's listed
in there ad???"
Yes, Amsoil does not make a JASO certified oil. Its not false advertising because they are not claiming its certified! They are being alittle shaddy in listing uysing the term under the marleting spiel.

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#772290 - 12/09/06 06:40 PM Re: JASO FC = JASO FD now? [Re: blano]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10419
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Quote:

"k so just so i get you,, your saying that amsoil is not
JASO certifyed???????

wouldn't that be false advertising then it's listed
in there ad???"
Yes, Amsoil does not make a JASO certified oil. Its not false advertising because they are not claiming its certified! They are being alittle shaddy in listing uysing the term under the marleting spiel.




Check this out, i sent them an e-mail and got a responce
yesterday,


Q,

"Hi, my snowmobile requires "JASO FC" certified oil,now your interceptor only says, "recommended for use where jaso fc oils are specified" now that don't tell me it's "certified" and i don't see a jaso certification logo on your bottle like what's required. so can i assume your oil is NOT jaso certified then??? Please respond!!!!! thank you,"


A,

"Thank you for contacting AMSOIL with your concerns.



In response to your inquiry, the AMSOIL Interceptor two-cycle oil has not been submitted to JASO for review. Performance of the product has been verified in meeting the JASO FC performance requirements as determined via test methodology JASO M340, M341, M342 and M343. It should be noted that the JASO FC standard does not review performance in technologies such as direct fuel injection or variable exhaust valving. That being the case, meeting FC performance alone, does not guaranty suitability in many of the advanced snowmobile applications. That is why AMSOIL has gone beyond the minimal requirement to assure performance and protection regardless as to what you ride.



Thank you again for the opportunity to respond to your concerns. As always, please feel free to contact us again if we can be of further assistance.



Sincerely.



David Anderson

Technical Product Manager, Power Sports Group

AMSOIL Inc."



Hmmmm.......
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

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