Recent Topics
Alignment, rear toe, fix or leave it?
by actionstan
09/16/14 09:49 PM
TGMO 0W-20, 13 Avalon Hybrid
by dmack2
09/16/14 09:38 PM
Mobil 1 Custom Blend 0w30 - 4,000 mi, 2014 Mazda 3
by Artem
09/16/14 09:29 PM
Valvoline Next Gen
by ChevyBadger
09/16/14 09:18 PM
Valvoline SynPower 0w-20
by klt1986
09/16/14 08:57 PM
Amsoil 10w40 compare in inboard 5.7liters
by Yannick
09/16/14 08:40 PM
stainless steel Dishwasher interiors
by spasm3
09/16/14 08:19 PM
Need adhesive advice
by gfh77665
09/16/14 08:11 PM
Looking for a diesel fuel additive....
by NattyBoh
09/16/14 07:23 PM
FL Tax-free holiday on some appliances
by hatt
09/16/14 07:14 PM
Amp cord overrated for generator...?
by Nayov
09/16/14 07:10 PM
Valvetrain/head pics, 2004 2.2 Ecotec ~130K miles
by MinamiKotaro
09/16/14 07:00 PM
Newest Members
reetzy, RJasonKlein, dougout, CDot, mazarnelli
51316 Registered Users
Who's Online
80 registered (123Saab, 01rangerxl, abycat, actionstan, 3800Series, 1kickbuttranger, 4 invisible), 1489 Guests and 230 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51316 Members
64 Forums
219339 Topics
3461297 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#772137 - 11/21/06 07:56 AM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: Pablo]
1040 WreckerMan Offline


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 785
Loc: Western Washington
Pablo - The engine is originally spec'd for Valvo PB/PBE 15w40.

The report looks pretty good other than the soot. I am assuming that since this is a 2000 it is an electronic N14? If that is the case and it has a Celect/Celct+ fuel system, go to your local Cummins dealer and buy the "3 gallon" can of the Cummins injector flush and use it. You pull the fuel line off the supply side of the fuel filter and stick it in the can of flush. Then take the return line loose and stick it in the can. Run the engine for about 45 minuets and rehook all the hoses. That may help your soot problem if those injectors have a lot of miles on them. At work we use this flush on 1200 different Cummins and it works fairly well.

The high(er) chromium is most likely from the ring faces/liners. I would expect that at least half of that number would be caused from the high soot level. If this is true, iron will probably go down as well if you get the soot under control. High soot levels can contribute to VERY advanced overhead wear metals, particularly rocker arm to cross head wear.

A bypass filter would help the soot level. You could look into a Luber Finer (or FleetGaurd) 750 converted to PT, Ralph Wood sells one, or a Gulf Coast which are both sized well for your application. I would try and get the soot contamination down.
_________________________
HP = I'm spending money I don't have, on things I don't need to impress people I don't know!

Top
#772138 - 11/21/06 07:57 AM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: Pablo]
Gene K Offline


Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 3161
Loc: Decatur AL USA
I have not looked at a N14 manual but I am sure standard recommendation is 15W-40 with 10W-30 at lower temps.

Somewhere around here there is a 20,000 mi UOA on my 500,000 mi Cat 3406E running Chevron Delo 400 15w-40 and Soot was listed at <0.1. That is with the standard off the shelf Baldwin Oil Filter. In my opinion you have stuck and/or broken ring(s).

An Auto-Rx Cycle plus a cleaner strength dose of Lucas Injector Cleaner might break them free.

Its also possible he took the UOA improperly. It should be taken on a engine that has just been run at operating temperatue and taken at the halfway point during the drain.
If he took it when it first started to drain or toward the tail end of the drain after it had been sitting he may have picked up solids from the bottom of the pan.

You can buy a pump for pulling the samples through the fill tube from CAT for about $40.00. You may be able to get the same through Cummins. CAT says this is better than doing it during the drain and it will allow samples without dumping the oil.
_________________________
Gene






Top
#772139 - 11/21/06 08:59 PM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: Pablo]
BearGator56 Offline


Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Newnan, GA
Quote:

I would say you should contact Terry Dyson. When you consider the miles on the rig, the miles on the oil and this is the first run with an ester bearing oil - the metals aren't that bad.

My recommendation is to use AutoRx and conventional HDEO for the cleaning and rinse, then switch back to the HDD. AutoRx will go right to the ring area, clean and help seal the rings. Maybe look at some intake cleaning as well.





Thanks for your reply. Who is Terry Dyson?

I have looked at the AutoRX website, and it recommends two back to back uses for motors over 100k miles. I definitely want to clear my soot issue, but two flushings will take about 21 gallons of oil, not including the refill with Amsoil. I know this is a drop in the bucket compared to what I could be facing if the soot isn't cleared up, though. Maybe I will just run it through Speedco and get the "cheap stuff".

Top
#772140 - 11/21/06 09:06 PM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: Gene K]
BearGator56 Offline


Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Newnan, GA
Quote:




An Auto-Rx Cycle plus a cleaner strength dose of Lucas Injector Cleaner might break them free.

Its also possible he took the UOA improperly. It should be taken on a engine that has just been run at operating temperatue and taken at the halfway point during the drain.
If he took it when it first started to drain or toward the tail end of the drain after it had been sitting he may have picked up solids from the bottom of the pan.

You can buy a pump for pulling the samples through the fill tube from CAT for about $40.00. You may be able to get the same through Cummins. CAT says this is better than doing it during the drain and it will allow samples without dumping the oil.




I had already ordered the pump from Amsoil, but it did not arrive in time to take the sample. Since the truck was sitting in the shop for two days, I'm pretty sure he took the sample without running it since it was the last thing he did before pulling it out on his ready line. I would have preferred to take my own sample-but had it in the shop to change out the differential and tranny oils to Amsoil and a PM.

I have run the Lucas stuff through, and also Diesel Kleen's injector/fuel system cleaners. Not sure if it helped at all.

I'll have to get some AutoRX and try it out. Also looking at a couple different bypass filters: the FS2500, and Gulf Coast. FS claims about 2.73 microns, and GC claims down to 1 micron filtration. FS is definitely a smaller unit-which will fit in more places.

Top
#772141 - 11/21/06 09:38 PM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: BearGator56]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46627
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
http://www.dysonanalysis.com/

I know it's lots of oil - but just use the cheapest bulk HDEO 15W-40 you can find.

Top
#772142 - 11/22/06 12:05 AM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: Pablo]
Don Stefanik Offline


Registered: 12/09/03
Posts: 573
Loc: Forest On
613.3 hrs.
Divide by 40 to give you hrs.
Multiply by 40 to get miles.
_________________________
LIVE LONG & PROSPER.

Top
#772143 - 11/22/06 10:43 AM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: Don Stefanik]
Gene K Offline


Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 3161
Loc: Decatur AL USA
BearGator STOP! Forget what I said earlier! Get help before spending any more money.

I would contact Terry Dyson at Dyson Analysis. He is well worth what you pay him. How he works as cheap for individuals as he does I will never know. He does development work for various OEM's and Lubricant Companies. He is very good at telling exactly what is going on in an engine just from analysis. His website list a combo price for a good analysis plus interpretation. Given the replacement cost of a 14.3L Diesel it may be the best money you ever spent. Right off the top of his head he can likely steer you to the best lubricant choice for most N14's.

When you get the pump you can start to pull samples at the mileages he recommends so he can give you guidance from there.

For the time being just stay with what you have in the truck through 15,000 mi (unless Terry says otherwise). The Amsoil should protect at higher soot loadings than conventional oil.

After that use your choice of conventional oils like Chevron Delo 400, Mobil Delvac 1300, or Shell Rotella T at 10,000 mi intervals (unless Terry says otherwise) until you get this sorted out.

Its alot better to dump $100 worth of oil every 3-4 weeks than have to do a $15,000 rebuild.
_________________________
Gene






Top
#772144 - 11/22/06 11:59 AM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: Gene K]
1040 WreckerMan Offline


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 785
Loc: Western Washington
It may be true that Amsoil can handle higher soot loads than dino oils. However, even dispersants can't due much when the high soot content dispersed gets ground into valve stems, crossheads, push tubes and rocker arms.

I was involved in some tests using M11 Celect+ engines, and BC IV engines concerning wear related to soot loading and fuel dilution. With little to no fuel dilution, a 1 percent increase in soot resulted in an increase in overhead wear by at least a full factor.

I wouldn't under-estimate the negative effects of soot as related to wear. Again, I would suggest looking at the injectors, especially if it is a mechanical N14 (STC, not Celect). I may be over reacting some to the high soot content, but I'd rather be conservative than sorry. The last N14 I inframed cost me about 7500, and I got out fairly inexpensively. Someone paying for an inframe or out-frame retail would probably pay at least double that from a reputable shop.
_________________________
HP = I'm spending money I don't have, on things I don't need to impress people I don't know!

Top
#772145 - 11/22/06 04:21 PM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: 1040 WreckerMan]
Gene K Offline


Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 3161
Loc: Decatur AL USA
1040 Wreckerman, I was basing those mileages on holding him to 3.0 (Synthetic) and 2.0 (Conventional) soot levels. Obviously at 5.2 his soot level is to high.

Obviously he has a mechanical problem which is the reason I suggested he get Terry Dysons imput. I'm thinking stuck and/or broke rings and/or injector problems. I seem to remember the N14 being prone to both.

I dont think you and I are to far apart on this issue.
_________________________
Gene






Top
#772146 - 11/22/06 06:28 PM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: Gene K]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46627
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
A couple more things - if the soot level is truly over 5%, I'll bet the filter is pretty nasty - maybe in bypass mode? I'm also thinking a conventional oil would have like gone nasty gel or well into SAE 50 range.

As I stated earlier some serious clean-up was going on. Even throwing in some Amsoil engine flush before draining will be greatly beneficial.

Top
#772147 - 11/22/06 10:12 PM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: Pablo]
1040 WreckerMan Offline


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 785
Loc: Western Washington
Gene K, it is very possible that it has broken rings. If the engine still runs good it probably doesn't have broken rings, a compression test would tell for sure. Also, that engine has a road draft engine breather, so when the thing is running you can see how much crank case pressure is being vented. With the truck warm, best after a good pull, stop and look at the breather. If there is an excessive amount of smoke/oil coming out then there is most likely a ring/piston/liner problem.

Even with a new engine in good health you will still get some visible smoke from that breather, so keep that in mind when trying to figure out what is excessive.

I would agree with you Pablo that the Amsoil was doing some cleaning. However I'm not sure that the oil will clean around 5% soot off the internals. I think there is a mechanical problem. I'm sure soot will stay somewhat high for a few changes as Amsoil cleans house, but the problem causing the excessive soot needs to be addressed.
_________________________
HP = I'm spending money I don't have, on things I don't need to impress people I don't know!

Top
#772148 - 11/23/06 05:07 AM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: 1040 WreckerMan]
LargeCarManX2 Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 2279
Loc: Up here in the NorthWest
Even with Dino, you will need to do 10K OCI's. As I said, and believe, run the Amsoil 5-30 oil again and sample with your new oil pump around 20K. Send the sample in and see where your at. The chrominum level was safe/high normal range. If the tech did the cold UOA oil sample that had sat in the pan for 2 day's then this is why the soot levels are high.When you do the next sample....when you shut down for the day pull the dipstick, mark the tubing where you need it flush out 5or6oz's and then pump the 4oz's you need. I really think your fine.
_________________________
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Sir Winston Churchill

Top
#772149 - 11/23/06 08:55 AM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: LargeCarManX2]
1040 WreckerMan Offline


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 785
Loc: Western Washington
The soot content in the oil will not change from hot oil to cold, the oil is holding the same amount of soot in suspension. Since there wasn't high fuel dilution present, I don't think a cold drain affected the sample much. A slight amount of fall out may occur from the truck sitting idle (as in not running at all) for several days, however I don't think the results would be as significant as this UOA indicates, but I could be wrong.

Due to the low fuel dilution level, worn/stuck rings are a good area to look at for the source of the high soot level. This can be done with a leak-down tester, or simply with a compression test. I still would not discount an injector or pump problem. I have seen many injector/pump failures that would cause many problems without showing excessive fuel in the oil.

The Amsoil seems to have done well, so I don't think LargeCarMan's recommendation of running the same oil again is out of the question. Pull a sample after 7500 miles and see what is going on and reassess the situation then.
_________________________
HP = I'm spending money I don't have, on things I don't need to impress people I don't know!

Top
#772150 - 11/23/06 08:13 PM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: 1040 WreckerMan]
BearGator56 Offline


Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Newnan, GA
I'm out of town, and the truck is sitting still until Tuesday. I'll be getting an order to Amsoil, and hopefully get the truck in for the oil change before next weekend. I'm really hoping to not have any ring problems. The truck runs very good, and is getting me right at 7 mpgs. It does tend to bog down on steeper hills, but the dual-rated motor is set at the low end of 375 hp.

Can that AutoRX be bought in a store? Would it be ok to add it into my current oil and run a couple days before it gets changed?

Top
#772151 - 11/23/06 09:25 PM Re: Cummins N-14, Amsoil HDD 5w30, 24532 miles on [Re: BearGator56]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46627
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
No AutoRx is online only. They ship pretty quick. Adding for a couple days won't work. You must follow the instructions precisely.

If you don't have the time for AutoRx, I would still dump in the Amsoil Flush (1 can per 5 qts, about 8 cans) and do a fast idle on a hot engine for 15 minutes. (Don't drive) - Then drain. This should flush the soot out, pretty well, but won't clean the rings all that great. Maybe do another injector cleaning before this.

Top
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >