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#2245493 - 04/27/11 09:07 PM Re: Wheels just fell off the Biodiesel and Ethanol bandwagons [Re: PandaBear]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 2248
Loc: Central Iowa
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
See, no matter how you cut it, whether you use alt fuel or crude, the end is near and only using less fuel is the option.

So why the heck are we mad at CA trying to force higher mpg limit on the auto industry? Stop the SUV/Truck/Minivan madness and everyone start working on a 1500lb 7 seater with a coefficient of drag of 0.21



I would agree... if I lived in a city. When it rains or snows on my roads, we are darn thankful we have a 4500lb Jeep Liberty Diesel to get to and from town. By the way, it regularly gets over 30 mpg on trips and averages 24-25 mpg in our daily stuff. Better than a lot of cars.

The end is near only if we never tap the vast reserves of petroleum we have right here at home. We are our own worst enemy when it comes to energy security.

_________________________
In order to know what is bad, you have to know what is good. The question them becomes, what is the source of knowing what is good?

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#3871091 - 09/30/15 08:14 PM Re: Wheels just fell off the Biodiesel and Ethanol bandwagons [Re: keith]
loneryder Offline


Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 193
Loc: WV
Originally Posted By: keith
[sarcasm] Who knew? [/sarcasm]

Study says ethanol not worth the energy

"...it takes 29% more fossil energy to turn corn into ethanol than the amount of fuel the process produces"

"It takes 27% more energy to turn soybeans into biodiesel fuel and more than double the energy produced is needed to do the same to sunflower plants..."

The study didn't even address the foolishness of using prime agricultural land to feed cars rather than humans.

What about 10% less mileage or your car uses 10% more fuel sitting in traffic. Is it really "cleaner" or is it just to make certain folks rich??

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#3871464 - 10/01/15 08:15 AM Re: Wheels just fell off the Biodiesel and Ethanol bandwagons [Re: keith]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 2248
Loc: Central Iowa
But there are many studies that show for every 1 BTU of energy to produce ethanol, from corn planting, fertilizer, harvest, transportation, ethanol production, etc... there is a net 1.34 BTU energy output from ethanol, for a 34% gain in BTU output over input.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/AF/265.pdf

True, a gasoline engine on various blends of ethanol will get lower mpg. But that doesn't mean it has a lower cost per mile. My pickup on E85 has a 1-2 cent lower cost per mile on the lower mpg than with even the better mpg I get from regular gas. Ethanol is market traded on the commodity exchanges. The producers have no say in the market price. And ethanol is substantially less cost than gas, so at even the reduced mpg, the cost per mile is less also. At the worse, a break even.

And on engines that are primarily design around E85 compared to flex fuel motors that are just gas motors that can run E85, the results are striking. Ricardo has a 3.2L V6 EBDI E85 motor that puts out the same power and fuel economy of a 6.6L diesel, but it uses E85. Cummins has a 2.8L E85 motor that outperforms a 5.7L Hemi in both power and fuel economy.

And I am not averse to using farmland to fuel vehicles. That is way better than using sacrificed lives of military men and women to fuel them, as we did with the gulf wars. The last Iraqi adventure cost us $14 Billion a month. Ethanol subsidies, before they were eliminated at the end of 2011, capped out at no more than $13 billion a year. And not one military member lost their life or was seriously wounded protecting a corn field. Those that run around claiming they support the troops should be all over ethanol use. And that is where the rubber meets the road... as a Viet vet, I always measure a person's statement of supporting the troops in how that actually plays out in what they do on a daily basis and how they vote. Talk is cheap.
_________________________
In order to know what is bad, you have to know what is good. The question them becomes, what is the source of knowing what is good?

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#3875838 - 10/05/15 03:06 PM Re: Wheels just fell off the Biodiesel and Ethanol bandwagons [Re: TiredTrucker]
loneryder Offline


Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 193
Loc: WV
Trucker, Your last paragraph is profound. We should not be sending troops to the middle east anymore, we should develop our own oil. We just surrendered the middle east to Putin anyway.

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#3875969 - 10/05/15 05:24 PM Re: Wheels just fell off the Biodiesel and Ethanol bandwagons [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 32519
Loc: Oz
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Ricardo has a 3.2L V6 EBDI E85 motor that puts out the same power and fuel economy of a 6.6L diesel, but it uses E85.


The Ricardo claim is actually the same "thermal efficiency" as the diesel.

Efficiency being the ratio of energy out to energy in...

40% less BTUs in the tank than a tank of diesel, then 40% less mileage for the same thermal efficiency.

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#3881454 - 10/10/15 08:16 PM Re: Wheels just fell off the Biodiesel and Ethanol bandwagons [Re: TiredTrucker]
HerrStig Offline


Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 7448
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
But there are many studies that show for every 1 BTU of energy to produce ethanol, from corn planting, fertilizer, harvest, transportation, ethanol production, etc... there is a net 1.34 BTU energy output from ethanol, for a 34% gain in BTU output over input.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/AF/265.pdf

True, a gasoline engine on various blends of ethanol will get lower mpg. But that doesn't mean it has a lower cost per mile. My pickup on E85 has a 1-2 cent lower cost per mile on the lower mpg than with even the better mpg I get from regular gas. Ethanol is market traded on the commodity exchanges. The producers have no say in the market price. And ethanol is substantially less cost than gas, so at even the reduced mpg, the cost per mile is less also. At the worse, a break even.

And on engines that are primarily design around E85 compared to flex fuel motors that are just gas motors that can run E85, the results are striking. Ricardo has a 3.2L V6 EBDI E85 motor that puts out the same power and fuel economy of a 6.6L diesel, but it uses E85. Cummins has a 2.8L E85 motor that outperforms a 5.7L Hemi in both power and fuel economy.

And I am not averse to using farmland to fuel vehicles. That is way better than using sacrificed lives of military men and women to fuel them, as we did with the gulf wars. The last Iraqi adventure cost us $14 Billion a month. Ethanol subsidies, before they were eliminated at the end of 2011, capped out at no more than $13 billion a year. And not one military member lost their life or was seriously wounded protecting a corn field. Those that run around claiming they support the troops should be all over ethanol use. And that is where the rubber meets the road... as a Viet vet, I always measure a person's statement of supporting the troops in how that actually plays out in what they do on a daily basis and how they vote. Talk is cheap.
Facts aren't. "In 2011 the USDA began to allow blender pump subsidies to replace the ethanol subsidies which expired in 2011." The administration 2015 budget has MORE of these subsidies included. A neat little sidestep around Congress. Nice try.

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#3881456 - 10/10/15 08:18 PM Re: Wheels just fell off the Biodiesel and Ethanol bandwagons [Re: TiredTrucker]
Benito Offline


Registered: 05/27/15
Posts: 1287
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Those that run around claiming they support the troops should be all over ethanol use. And that is where the rubber meets the road... as a Viet vet, I always measure a person's statement of supporting the troops in how that actually plays out in what they do on a daily basis and how they vote. Talk is cheap.


Yep, a lot of hypocrites out there.
_________________________
“You may not control all the events that happen to you, but you can decide not to be reduced by them.” - Maya Angelou

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#3889666 - 10/18/15 09:32 PM Re: Wheels just fell off the Biodiesel and Ethanol bandwagons [Re: HerrStig]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 2248
Loc: Central Iowa
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Facts aren't. "In 2011 the USDA began to allow blender pump subsidies to replace the ethanol subsidies which expired in 2011." The administration 2015 budget has MORE of these subsidies included. A neat little sidestep around Congress. Nice try.


Fact.... ethanol producers, corn growers, etc do not sell fuel at the retail level, just like refineries don't sell retail gas or diesel at retail right out of the refinery. Subsidies for blender pumps are for retail fuel vendors. That may be retail corporate subsidies, but not ethanol subsidies. Come on, get real. You are really straining at a gnat by trying to equate the two. Nice try.

It doesn't change a thing on the amount of ethanol made or available. it just allows the consumer to select the blend they like..... E0, E10, E15, E20, E30, or E85. We have a few of these pumps around my area. Kind neat really. It allows consumer choice, which it is a diversion from normal government action. And if more people select the higher blends, that means the folks who are pulling their hair out over ethanol will have better chance of getting the ethanol free fuel they want. Sounds like a good deal to me.
_________________________
In order to know what is bad, you have to know what is good. The question them becomes, what is the source of knowing what is good?

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