Toyota red or pink
- Thread starter LarryL
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I guess what bothers me about your service writer's statement is that the visual difference between pink and red can be easily influenced by the degree of water dilution. It sure seems odd to me that Toyota would all too easily confuse consumers by supplying two entirely different products tinted so similarly. I would also expect that if Toyota Long Life Antifreeze/Coolant is available prediluted, it would appear pink right out of the jug, whereas the concentrate would pour just about cherry red. The good news is you can easily check the back of the jug for reliable information. Toyota is among those who list their antifreeze/coolants' ingredients. In addition to the expected ethylene glycol, Toyota Long Life Antifreeze/Coolant will list NO silicate content, but will list sodium benzoate (used as the OAT by Toyota). Phosphate, used as a co-corrosion inhibitor for aluminum components, will also be listed.
I think that service writer is a schmuck.
I have a 2000 Toyota Corolla and a 2004 Highlander. The Corolla came with the red coolant and the Highlander came with the pink coolant. Toyota calls the red coolant "long life" and the pink coolant "super long life". I believe Toyota switched from the red to the pink around 2003. Both contain phosphates but they are different. The Highlander owner's manual calls for coolant change at 120 months/120000 miles whereas the Corolla is substantially shorter. A couple of months back when I changed the coolant in the Corolla (yes, it was over-due), I was thinking of replacing it with the pink one so that I don't have to do it as often. But the three Toyota dealers I inqured only had the pink coolant in pre-diluted 50/50. They did have the red one in concentrated and pre-diluted. I ended up replaced it with Prestone "all makes all models" when the guy at the dealer's parts department told me that the red one was only good for 2 years/30000 miles. However recently I have reading people saying that the red coolant is good for 5 years/50000 miles. This may have some true in it because the coolant I drained out of the Corolla seemed to be still clean after 5 years/60000 miles!
Larry, I can understanding your confusion. From my 2004 Highlander manual, "Toyota Super Long Life Coolant" is a hybrid organic one (a combination of low phosphates and organic acids) and without silicate, amine, nitrite, and borate. Whereas the 2000 Corolla manual simply says to use ethylene glycol based coolant. No mentioned about "Toyota Long Life Coolant", which apparently was a factory fill. Now the interesting thing. I bought a few bottles of the "Toyota Long Life" coolant last Friday. The label on the back of the bottles says "... a new generation ethylene glycol base premium antifreeze/coolant ... organic acid salt, hydrated inoragnic salt ...". So what is it? A hybrid organic coolant too? By the way, some people use Zerex G-05, which contains both nitrite and silicate but no phosphates, as a replacement coolant for Toyota cars. I don't know if it is "close" enough for the red (with phospates, I believe) but seems to be too far-fetched for the pink.
Prior to 1997 Toyota used a conventional green coolant.
From 1996 forward they began using a unique OAT coolant which does not use 2-EHA (2-ethylhexanoic acid) which is used in DexCool, the GM version of an OAT, and the European OAT formulae. It is silicate-free but contains some phosphate, which provides some protection to the water pump from cavitation damage.
Honda uses a very similar formula.
Zerex recommends their DexCool clone, Zerex ExtremeLife, for 1997 and up Toyotas. But they recommend their Zerex G-05, a HOAT, for Honda. Apparently the reason is that Honda has taken a public stance against coolants containing 2-EHA (2-ethylhexanoic acid).
I recently flushed and refilled my wife’s 2002 Camry with the red coolant in it. I chose not to use the Toyota red because of price and availability. I refilled it with Zerex G-05.
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Mickey, thanks for confirming that Toyota red is HOAT. Back in May I changed my Corolla OEM fill (red) coolant with Prestone "all makes all models" extended-life because I didn't want to pay 17.50/gallon for something that (the guy at the dealer parts counter said) would only last 2 years. Zerex G-05 was actually on my mind but I could not find it anywhere (Kragen, Autozone, Pepboys) at that time. Since then I learned that the red is similar to HOAT and can last longer. Last week when I found out that a local dealer has the Toyota red at 13.88 coupon price, I went ahead and bought 4 gallons. I plan to use it on my 2000 Mazda MPV, which is over-due in the coolant department, and my son's 1999 Altima, which I replaced with Prestone DexCool last year. I had been using Prestone (conventional green) all my life and Dexcool was the only "Prestone" coolant on the shelf at the time I visited Wal-Mart. I was actually excited about the 5 years/15000 miles claim. But when I started to learn those stories surrounding DexCool and the different ingredients (no silicate but phosphates) in Japanese cars, I feel a little bit uneasy from time to time. So I will re-do it with the Toyota red. Then I will sit back and see if I can convince myself to do the same with the Corolla.
That is not quite correct. The phosphate content which all three major Japanese automakers specify is for added quick aluminum protection - especially important now that the Japanese "big three" are filling their engine bays with aluminum motors, as well as using aluminum heater cores and radiators. Phosphate latches onto aluminum almost immediately. It has no effect on the generation of cavitation bubbles. OAT can take up to 3,000 miles of operation to build up an adequate protection film (though once established is very long lasting unless mechanically disturbed). The circulating "unused" phosphate is available to quickly repair the OAT protection coating in the event something sloughs some of it off. GM specifically rejected using phosphate out of concern that if it precipitated out of solution as hard crystal, it could cause waterpump seal damage. The Japanese automakers considered that an acceptable risk, and time, so far, sugggests they're right.
As for the inference that DEX-COOL is inherently problematic, nonsense. The chemistry works if it's handled properly and there are no underlying problems with the cooling system. GM engines with plastic intake manifolds (which flow coolant between the heads to hasten warmup) with differing heat expansion characteristics than the cylinder heads were problematic. Certain GM radiator designs (those with "tilted" fill holes that inevitably trapped an air bubble at the top) and certain GM pressure caps were problematic. DEX-COOL installed without regard to properly flushing out conventional antifreeze can lead to problems, too. My wife put more than four years on a 2000 Cavalier filled at the factory with DEX-COOL with no problems whatsover. I put over three years on a 1996 Accord that I drained, thoroughly flushed with distilled water, and refilled with Havoline DEX-COOL, again with no problems whatsoever. My 2003 Sonata aluminum V6 came with conventional antifreeze that had begun to turn cloudy with less than two years use. Out it came with repeated distilled water flushes and in went ST extended life - an unlicensed DEX-COOL "clone". Now at more than 11 months, it's still perfectly clear blue-green and NO problems with this year's southern California scorching summer. (I'm about 60 miles inland of the coast just on the threshhold of the Mojave.)
Actually the phosphate's in there for protection from cavitation damage. Cavitation causes bubbles at speed to remove the coating from the aluminum water pumper impeller blades (and the aluminum block), which eventually erodes the aluminum. It's not the bubbles you're combatting, it's the damage they cause to the coating you're correcting with phosphates (or silicates with G-05).
The reason why the Japanese use phosphates is that their blocks are aluminum, not cast iron. Silicates work on aluminum, too, but phophates aren't particularly suited to cast iron blocks. Also water in Japan is generally "soft", so the problem with mineral deposits that occur with phosphates in Europe and North America from top-offs with hard water doesn't exist.
While you may believe DexCool doesn't cause problems, Honda takes a hard line that it does. Ford also released data on their own long-range tests indicating that some gasket problems were noted in some applications. That's why they went with G-05.
On the other hand, I retrofitted a Honda with DexCool (not a clone, the genuine item) a few years ago and have noted no problems at all.
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The reason why the Japanese use phosphates is that their blocks are aluminum, not cast iron. Silicates work on aluminum, too, but phophates aren't particularly suited to cast iron blocks. Also water in Japan is generally "soft", so the problem with mineral deposits that occur with phosphates in Europe and North America from top-offs with hard water doesn't exist.
While you may believe DexCool doesn't cause problems, Honda takes a hard line that it does. Ford also released data on their own long-range tests indicating that some gasket problems were noted in some applications. That's why they went with G-05.
On the other hand, I retrofitted a Honda with DexCool (not a clone, the genuine item) a few years ago and have noted no problems at all.
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Ray,
I do know the truth of DexCool stories - bad radiator cap design (GM's fault), preventive gasket leak additive (GM's fault), and low coolant level (driver's fault) - but what bothers me is the fact that Ford and Chrysler looked at DexCool and went away. Two other reasons that I want to replace the Altima's current Prestone DexCool with the Toyota red I just bought: I did not do a complete flush (just drained the radiator and the engine block and rinsed with tap water) and I filled with pre-mixed 50/50 which the old coolant would have diluted even further.
Mickey,
I am with you about the concern of cavitation damage, I would have use Zerex G-05 in my Corolla if I could find it then. Subsequently I did find it in one Kragen and one Pepboys that I visited before. Still not all the stores from the same chain have it. I am not that concerned with the Prestone "all makes all models" (DexCool clone?) in the Corolla because I did the replacement correctly. I would have continued to use it in the Mazda MPV (and Altima) if I did not find out that Toyota red can actually last longer than 2 years. So my plan forward is use Toyota red until there is concentrate Toyota pink.
I do know the truth of DexCool stories - bad radiator cap design (GM's fault), preventive gasket leak additive (GM's fault), and low coolant level (driver's fault) - but what bothers me is the fact that Ford and Chrysler looked at DexCool and went away. Two other reasons that I want to replace the Altima's current Prestone DexCool with the Toyota red I just bought: I did not do a complete flush (just drained the radiator and the engine block and rinsed with tap water) and I filled with pre-mixed 50/50 which the old coolant would have diluted even further.
Mickey,
I am with you about the concern of cavitation damage, I would have use Zerex G-05 in my Corolla if I could find it then. Subsequently I did find it in one Kragen and one Pepboys that I visited before. Still not all the stores from the same chain have it. I am not that concerned with the Prestone "all makes all models" (DexCool clone?) in the Corolla because I did the replacement correctly. I would have continued to use it in the Mazda MPV (and Altima) if I did not find out that Toyota red can actually last longer than 2 years. So my plan forward is use Toyota red until there is concentrate Toyota pink.
Duh! Could it be that Honda (Nissan and Toyota, too) want to sell you their pricey, proprietary antifreezes only available through their respective stealerships? Curiously, the Saturn Vue is equipped with a Honda motor, yet GM fills these vehicles with DEX-COOL on the vehicle assembly line despite Honda's dire warnings - so far I haven't heard of any problems - cavitation or otherwise.
Ford also released data on their own long-range tests indicating that some gasket problems were noted in some applications. That's why they went with G-05.
Ford's Mazda division apparently fills with an orange, strictly OAT antifreeze that's DEX-COOL in all but name only, not G-05 according to several posts (none of them mine) in another thread on this forum.
On the other hand, I retrofitted a Honda with DexCool (not a clone, the genuine item) a few years ago and have noted no problems at all.
Duh! How is it that phosphates are allegedly used to counter cavitation problems in Japanese cars with aluminum alloy block and head motors and yet you confirm the same trouble-free, non-phosphate DEX-COOL experience in an aluminum cooling system and motor Honda that I also noted?
I've hung around and regularly posted on this particular forum for over a year and you're the only poster I've come across who maintains that the Japanese OEMs are souping their proprietary antifreeze with phosphates because of cavitation issues. Would you, or anyone else, who has access to verify such a position mind posting the source for this notion? I'm always eager to expand my knowldege base.
I have NO issues with phosphate as part of an antifreeze formula. The chemical is known to offer immediate aluminum protection as a hybrid anti-corrosive ingredient. And, GM might be light years ahead in dealing with past problems and current hysteria about DEX-COOL if they'd spec phosphate in DEX-COOL. (A few paltry grams of whatever phosphate salt may just be the key to a more fault-tolerant antifreeze/coolant.) I just find Honda's attitude about DEX-COOL somewhat suspect when our own personal experiences and GM's Honda motor equipped vehicle experiences are taken into context.
I did seriously believe that played a role. What in the world the European camp wants silicates and the Japanese camp insists phosphates? Before I put the Prestone OAT "all makes all models" in my Corolla, I went as far as to check out the patents filed by Prestone (I found 3) and Valvoline-Zerex (I found 2) to see what they said regarding ingredients, corrosion, and cavitation. Here was my reasoning to feel comfortable with Prestone. Prestone and Valvoline are big name companies with serious research and technology in this field. If the original DexCool has any problem, that would only show up after a long-term use, you would think these company would have known it by now and correct/improve it in their mix. But I was still wondering why Phosphates and my continuing research lead me this link Green Stuff Considered - Coolants and Corrosion written by someone who is a Ph.D in chemical engineering and doesn't seem to be associated with the coolant manufacturers. (I kind of have the impression that those "good" words about G-05 were originated from some Valvoline guy and spreaded out.) The gist of it is different inhibitors protect different metals. Silicate is good at inhibiting aluminum corrosion but not phosphate (poorly is the word in the article). However, Silicate is not indefinitely stable in solution (I think people call it gel-out.) Phosphate is effective at preventing cavitation and a well known inhibitor for ferrous metal corrosion (I have no idea if such metal is in the car.) but has a propensity to precipitate in hard water. This article makes me wonder maybe there is a good reason of using phosphrate because of the car design after all. But again, maybe not. It all comes down to what I (or you) feel more comfortable - spending a few more for the pricey one to have a piece of mind or just trusting Prestone/Valvoline.
By the way, I have read that HOAT (OAT with silicates, or phosphates for that matter) is actually a transitional product because manufacturers couldn't get the OAT to work the way they wanted until a few years ago. It may have some truth in it because Mercedes has been using G-05-like mix since 1983. My current stance is to go with the Toyota red now and hopefully we would know better about the OAT technology in 5 more years.
[ August 07, 2005, 03:34 AM: Message edited by: rwl408 ]
Thanks - this Macs article quote answered my question perfectly:
"And aside from GM, everyone else wants some inhibitor that does a “fast repair” of cavitation erosion in the water pump before it does real damage (Figure 7). Silicates and phosphates provide that action. GM testing apparently doesn’t feel it’s needed."
I misunderstood the cavitation issue explanation in your first post in this thread. Looks like, bang for the buck, G-05 is very good in just about anything. (which seems to have been everyone's experience who's used it) The Japanese extended life syrups are perhaps even marginally better for all-aluminum engine/cooling system combos if price is no object. Screw the "good 5-cent cigar" - what this country really needs is a good aftermarket medium yellow-green dyed, benzoate-laced, phosphated, ethylene glycol antifreeze labled for use in cars with aluminum engines and aluminum cooling system components, and priced about $10.00/gallon. The "ricer" stealerships would have a cow.
"And aside from GM, everyone else wants some inhibitor that does a “fast repair” of cavitation erosion in the water pump before it does real damage (Figure 7). Silicates and phosphates provide that action. GM testing apparently doesn’t feel it’s needed."
I misunderstood the cavitation issue explanation in your first post in this thread. Looks like, bang for the buck, G-05 is very good in just about anything. (which seems to have been everyone's experience who's used it) The Japanese extended life syrups are perhaps even marginally better for all-aluminum engine/cooling system combos if price is no object. Screw the "good 5-cent cigar" - what this country really needs is a good aftermarket medium yellow-green dyed, benzoate-laced, phosphated, ethylene glycol antifreeze labled for use in cars with aluminum engines and aluminum cooling system components, and priced about $10.00/gallon. The "ricer" stealerships would have a cow.
"Looks like, bang for the buck, G-05 is very good in just about anything."
I admire the technical elegance of DexCool and the related European Glysantin formulae in Europe. If the system is kept full, leak-free, and maintained it is the longest-lived of the coolants. I've retrofitted three cars with it since 1995 and had zero problems.
On the other hand, it isn't fault tolerant. Let it get low on coolant, develop a leak, or experience some SNAFU and you can have serious problems.
One of my fishing buddies runs a radiator shop. Over the years he noticed that Mercedes radiators came in for physical damage or just plain extreme age and mileage, but never were plugged up. Back about 10 years ago he began to use the Mercedes coolant (actually a European branded coolant that met the Mercedes spec) for everything.
As long as the customers kept using the Mercedes coolant, they didn't have cooling system problems.
Apparently he was on to something.
DexCool in the cars that like it and G-05 in just about everything else (especially if they're not kept topped off and leak-free) seem to cover the waterfront.
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I admire the technical elegance of DexCool and the related European Glysantin formulae in Europe. If the system is kept full, leak-free, and maintained it is the longest-lived of the coolants. I've retrofitted three cars with it since 1995 and had zero problems.
On the other hand, it isn't fault tolerant. Let it get low on coolant, develop a leak, or experience some SNAFU and you can have serious problems.
One of my fishing buddies runs a radiator shop. Over the years he noticed that Mercedes radiators came in for physical damage or just plain extreme age and mileage, but never were plugged up. Back about 10 years ago he began to use the Mercedes coolant (actually a European branded coolant that met the Mercedes spec) for everything.
As long as the customers kept using the Mercedes coolant, they didn't have cooling system problems.
Apparently he was on to something.
DexCool in the cars that like it and G-05 in just about everything else (especially if they're not kept topped off and leak-free) seem to cover the waterfront.
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Here are some articles about Zerex G-05 that I came across during my coolant quest.
"The Temperature never drops below Zerex" is where I learned that Mercedes has been using G-05 since 1984.
This article "Coolant Color and Its Significance" probably has something to do with all our knowledge about G-05. It pre-dates those articles in Motor Age, MACS Service Reports, and Popular Mechanics that recommend G-05. The author of this article were quoted in some of the later articles.
Page 2 of this article "The Zerex Antifreeze Lineup" recommends Zerex Extreme Life (Zerex version of DexCool) as a replacement for Toyota red! Maybe the Prestone "all makes all models" is ok for my Corolla after all. I found this one after I made the coolant change. Fortunately I could not find G-05 then. Otherwise I would have second guessed myself (about g-05) now. It does recommend G-05 for Honda green.
"The Temperature never drops below Zerex" is where I learned that Mercedes has been using G-05 since 1984.
This article "Coolant Color and Its Significance" probably has something to do with all our knowledge about G-05. It pre-dates those articles in Motor Age, MACS Service Reports, and Popular Mechanics that recommend G-05. The author of this article were quoted in some of the later articles.
Page 2 of this article "The Zerex Antifreeze Lineup" recommends Zerex Extreme Life (Zerex version of DexCool) as a replacement for Toyota red! Maybe the Prestone "all makes all models" is ok for my Corolla after all. I found this one after I made the coolant change. Fortunately I could not find G-05 then. Otherwise I would have second guessed myself (about g-05) now. It does recommend G-05 for Honda green.
Basically Zerex is recommending a DexCool clone.
That's replacing an OAT with an OAT.
The difference is that ExtremeLife doesn't contain a phosphate (Toyota's does) and ExtremeLife contains 2-eha, which Toyota doesn't.
For the Honda, which uses a coolant like Toyota, they recommend G-05. The reason is that Honda objects to the 2-eha.
I personally replaced the Toyota red in my wife's 2002 Camry with G-05. I believe the low silicate formula will provide similar protection to the phosphate in Toyota's coolant, and since I won't extend the drain interval past 3 years an extra year or two of life for the DexCool clones doesn't do anything for me.
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