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#607619 - 05/22/05 09:29 AM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1874
Loc: Ocala, Florida
i'd have to agree that the dealer is going to say that you modified the engineering of the motor by putting in a bypass filter, so you have no beef with the dealer but the filter company or yourself.

I ran tests on two amsoil bypass filters. both gave me the results I did't expect. Also terry was seeing some high results on his analsys with the bypass filter. any way on this page(4) about 17 posts down is what I found.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000513;p=4

also pablo brought up some good questions which is on there as well. Now understand, I had a limited power supply and maybe I didn't have enough power to run that the right way. don't know for sure.

I know that ralph sent me a bypass and there was no springs existed and had no restriction unlike amsoils.

I also ran 4kmiles on my escort with no filter. thats right, no filters at all. I eliminated the full flow and found that the full flow did nothing to my engine or oil.

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#607620 - 05/22/05 01:11 AM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
Mitch Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 59
Loc: So. Cal
Well ,after reading this post I am NOT going to put a bypass filter on while under the manufactors warranty.

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#607621 - 05/22/05 02:44 AM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1874
Loc: Ocala, Florida
I ment to mention that the mag moss act does not cover a bypass filter. the mag moss act covers a component like the original oil filter. As long as the orinal filter works the same, verified by a source like api is with the oil. That is why so many oils are accepted as they have the api seal where alot do not.

So in his case, he would have to show that the bypass filter he was using was working exactly the same as the orinal filter, which it doesn't. why put a bypass on in the first place if it did?

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#607622 - 05/22/05 07:36 AM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
1maniac Offline


Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 565
Loc: Pittsburgh PA
It's gone 100k with no more problems? Throw the bypass setup back on and see what happens [Wink]

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#607623 - 05/22/05 06:44 PM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
Asian oriented cars are more into this type of warranty snafu. My jeep warranty has a provision for aftermarket equipment. For example, if I throw on something to the power distribution center ..and my device fries ..my problem with the aftermarket equipment company. If the PCD fries ...DC's problem. Noramally the company has to attribute the failure to whatever they claim to be the cause. You can't just typically point to the first thing you see and say "Ah-ha! That's it!! You layed a non-factory piece of bling tape on your valve cover!! You're fault! (envision Pontius Pilate washing hands motion)". That is, they have to prove it. This is not the case in many Japanese makes. Honda for one. They don't even allow an air intake mode ..even if a failure isn't related to air intake. It voids the engine warranty. They even try and slide it in if you have a gear box problem in the presence of an inocuous engine mod.

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#607624 - 05/30/05 11:27 AM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
RavenTai Offline


Registered: 08/27/03
Posts: 294
Loc: Newnan GA, USA
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Allan:
[QUOTE] the flow potential of a filter is pretty much a moot point as long as the oil pump relief setting is not reached.

I'll agree that if the relief vale is closed all the oil the pump pumps makes it to the engine. It has to because there is nowhere else for it to go but there are two problems with that

1. My engine spends much more of its time with the relief valve open than closed,

2. With a restriction the relief valve will open at a lower RPM (earlier) than it would have without it.

With the relief valve open a restriction reduces both the flow and pressure seen at the engines components.

Especially a variable restriction like that in the Amsoil dual remote that will adjust itself to maintain the same pressure drop under different conditions.

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#607625 - 05/30/05 08:09 PM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
quote:
My engine spends much more of its time with the relief valve open than closed,
How do you know this? Do you see a typical peak pressure ..and see it often? It dips below this at idle ..and slams up against this limit off idle? I have the same situation with my HV oil pump. But since my gauge is @ 58psi post filter ..then my engine must be seeing (with minor variations) the same flow...only the amount shunted to the suction side of the pump is varied. If measured, the PSID of the filter would probably vary.

quote:
2. With a restriction the relief valve will open at a lower RPM (earlier) than it would have without it.
Sure, the filter does send the elevated pressure upstream. That is, your downstream pressure "is what it is" and any velocity increases are evidenced by increased upstream pressure. If this is in excess of the pressure relief limits, then you will see reduced pressure down stream.

Keep in mind that the typical filter has a minimum of an 8 PSID bypass setting ..this is planned for the life of the filter to protect the media from being ripped. That's the MINIMUM (typically) that should in no way interfere with the normal operation of you lubrication system. In the spec's that we rarely see, a 10gpm flow in a typical filter achieves 4PSID.
quote:
With the relief valve open a restriction reduces both the flow and pressure seen at the engines components.

No arguement there ..but this points to either a design anomaly or a wear related defect.

There's also the possibility that you have decided, for whatever reason, to use 10w-60 in Canada during the winter and think that the filter is somehow reponsible for you being up against the pressure relief. [Big Grin]

As with anything, conditions and restrictions apply.

[ May 31, 2005, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

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#607626 - 05/31/05 09:58 AM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
RavenTai Offline


Registered: 08/27/03
Posts: 294
Loc: Newnan GA, USA
Looks like we agree on more than we disagree on,

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Allan:
quote:
My engine spends much more of its time with the relief valve open than closed,
How do you know this? Do you see a typical peak pressure ..and see it often? It dips below this at idle ..and slams up against this limit off idle? I have the same situation with my HV oil pump. But since my gauge is @ 58psi post filter ..then my engine must be seeing (with minor variations) the same flow...only the amount shunted to the suction side of the pump is varied. If measured, the PSID of the filter would probably vary.



yes, cold start it goes straight to peak pressure even at idle, as I drive it remains there, after it warms up the pressure will only come off that peak at lower RPM’s ( somewhere just over 2K RPM it makes the transition) I spend most of my time on the freeway commute so warm and idle (only time the relief valve closes) is rare. This is on a Toyota I-6 in a 96 Land Cruiser (actually LX450) it had an extensive oil system, would not be surprised if its pump has a higher volume than average.

quote:
quote:
2. With a restriction the relief valve will open at a lower RPM (earlier) than it would have without it.
Sure, the filter does send the elevated pressure upstream. That is, your downstream pressure "is what it is" and any velocity increases are evidenced by increased upstream pressure. If this is in excess of the pressure relief limits, then you will see reduced pressure down stream.

Keep in mind that the typical filter has a minimum of an 8 PSID bypass setting ..this is planned for the life of the filter to protect the media from being ripped. That's the MINIMUM (typically) that should in no way interfere with the normal operation of you lubrication system. In the spec's that we rarely see, a 10gpm flow in a typical filter achieves 4PSID.
quote:
With the relief valve open a restriction reduces both the flow and pressure seen at the engines components.

No arguement there ..but this points to either a design anomaly or a wear related defect.

There's also the possibility that you have decided, for whatever reason, to use 10w-60 in Canada during the winter and think that the filter is somehow reponsible for you being up against the pressure relief. [Big Grin]

As with anything, conditions and restrictions apply.

LOL no no 60wt here but I do go towards the thick side living in GA, been trying different synthetic 40wt’s,

I have no beef with the restriction of a full flow filter the engine is built for it and as you said “that should in no way interfere with the normal operation of you lubrication system.” , my main beef is with the Amsoil dual remote, not saying I think it killed that Subaru, I would not think the effects are that dramatic but I do think it is counterproductive to restrict oil pressure for a bypass oil filter,

IMO the positive gains of a bypass filter are real but small, giving up oil pressure and flow for those small gains is not a step in the right direction.

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#607627 - 05/30/05 10:39 PM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
quote:
yes, cold start it goes straight to peak pressure even at idle, as I drive it remains there, after it warms up the pressure will only come off that peak at lower RPM’s ( somewhere just over 2K RPM it makes the transition) I spend most of my time on the freeway commute so warm and idle (only time the relief valve closes) is rare. This is on a Toyota I-6 in a 96 Land Cruiser (actually LX450) it had an extensive oil system, would not be surprised if its pump has a higher volume than average.
Okay ..so in your case, just as in mine, your at a fixed max pressure at all times. Assuming that you're reading post filter pressure, this flow is, within minor variations, constant ..otherwise the pressure would be lower. Same pressure through the same conduit(s). What varies is the flow that is recirculated through the relief. If the restriction of the filter was an issue, you would see decreased downstream pressure ..and subsequently ..reduced flow.

quote:
my main beef is with the Amsoil dual remote,
I was, at first, questioning of this setup. It's hard to evaluate the impact of this in Bob's filter test. I ran the Amsoil bypass filter in tandem with a ff on my Permacool dual mount (using the Amsoil threaded inserts) ..initially I had virtually no flow through the bypass. When accumulations in the ff reached a certain point ..then it started to get really hot. That is, I don't believe that this would be a factor of any magnetude since it is only simulating advanced ff filter saturation to allow enough differential to compell flow though the bypass.

quote:
IMO the positive gains of a bypass filter are real but small, giving up oil pressure and flow for those small gains is not a step in the right direction.
Yes, the practical worth of a bypass is limited for a limited niche market. Most are assuring that the junkyard has very clean engines from those who have used them. I would say that I would think it atypical that the installation of one had any significant impact on flow and resultant pressures.

Naturally, anyone could run into some unique situations that can create problems. [Smile]

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#607628 - 06/03/05 07:28 AM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
Tommy Offline


Registered: 07/29/02
Posts: 198
Loc: Canada
O.K., now I am getting a little paranoid....how about removing the valve from the Dual Remote filter head? I remember a post (way back when) that stated this will work, just with a lower rate of flow to the bypass filter - can anyone confirm this? Do you know what percentage flow you will get with the valve removed versus valve-in?

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#607629 - 06/03/05 03:26 PM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
I don't know the percentage, but it will be little in the beginning and progress as the ff filter next to it gets some accumulation on it. That's what that little valve basically simulates ..a somewhat saturated ff filter so that the bypass doesn't offer as much competition (resistance) to flow. That's basically what I had using the Cummins threaded inserts installed in the PermaCool dual mount.

It works fine ..but you get less then full use of the bypass during the beginning of the OCI ..and more later.

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#607630 - 06/04/05 09:22 AM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
mjo Offline


Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 417
Loc: Michigan
what about disassembling the valve, cutting the spring shorter so that it opposes less flow, and then reassembling it?

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#607631 - 06/04/05 01:38 AM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
bulwnkl Offline


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1442
Loc: Arizona
quote:
Originally posted by mjo:
what about disassembling the valve, cutting the spring shorter so that it opposes less flow, and then reassembling it?

Cutting a coil off the spring will increase the spring rate and INCREASE it's "opposition" to flow.

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#607632 - 06/04/05 04:11 AM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
1977c10phxdriver Offline


Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 294
Loc: Phoenix Arizona
quote:
Originally posted by mjo:
Cutting a coil off the spring will increase the spring rate and INCREASE it's "opposition" to flow.

I think you have that backwards.

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#607633 - 06/04/05 07:18 AM Re: BEWARE BY-PASS filters ! !
mjo Offline


Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 417
Loc: Michigan
I think someone, especially someone who sells Amsoil *wink* *nudge*, should test flow rates for all SEVEN stock Amsoil dual remote filter kits and then post them on BITOG. That would help relinquish the paranoia and appease the BP filter haters around here.

Also note that the "true" bypass filters others are talking about, such as the Frantz, Ralph's Motorguard, and Gulf Coast, tee off the oil pressure sender and drain into the oil pan. This doesn't cause a restriction with the full flow filter. The Amsoil dual remote, on the other hand, adds a restriction in front of the full flow filter in order to have a pressure source and drain source. In other words, it's in parallel, or in bypass with, the flow restrictor and not the engine. Maybe Amsoil needs to also sell different springs and valves depending on the engine in use - the same way that there exist different bypass valve pressures for the various full flow filters.
Although there are SEVEN different kits available on Amsoil's web site. And golly, is it possible that Mr. 2Grand4s installed a bypass filter kit that was TOO SMALL for his particular application?

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