Additives IX Metal Deactivators

[MolaKule]

This additive additive is a Protective Additive.

This additive forms surface films so that metal surfaces do not catalyze oil oxidation.

I.E, this chemical keeps metals in the engine from reacting with oxygen in the oil to inhibit oxidation of the oil. Copper, iron, and other metals can react with oxygen to "speed-up" chemical reactions that lead to oil oxidation, which we know degrades the oil and leads eventually to sludge.

This additive may also be part of a multifunctional anti-oxidant/AW package as well.

What is the functional name, not the chemical name , name of this additive?

I will supply the chemical names later.

[ July 22, 2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[Shannow]

deactivator ??

 

[Pablo]

passivating agent?

 

[G-MAN]

Well, I would have said the FUNCTIONAL name of this additive is "anti-oxidant," but it must be something else since you used that "name" in your question. However, given your "clue" maybe it's an "antacid."

Tums anyone?

[ June 19, 2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: G-Man II ]

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

According to Bob's main page under basic lube design...Shannow is right... But I still don't feel a personal need for a metal deactivator myself, even after reading the question.

 

[PRRPILL]

I guess it would be the Oxidation Inhibitor.

 

[Mystic]

It is ZDDP.

 

[Steve S]

I knew that.

calcium.

[ June 20, 2003, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: Steve S ]

 

[MolaKule]

Well, it seems that our "mate" from down under, Mr Shannow, was the first to guess correctly.

The additive was a Metal Deactivator.

Zinc diamyldithiocarbamtes, ZDDP, MoTDC, SbTDC, Sulfonates, disodium dimercaptobenzothiazole, Metal Phenates, heterocyclic Organic Sulfur-Nitrogen (containing) compounds, and barium sulfonates can be used as metal deactivators.


Metal deactivators also keep acids from attacking non-ferrous metals (such as the brasses, bronzes, tins and aluminums).

 

[Steve S]

I don't know! Now I do.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
--snip--
Metal deactivators also keep acids from attacking non-ferrous metals (such as the brasses, bronzes, tins and aluminums).

---

I do know of their existance, what I'd like to know is what exactly do they do.

Do they actually make the metals sorta inert?
Do they coat the metal so that theres a bond that
prevents contact with the oil?
Do they absorb into the metal and change their charge?

What exactly are their functions, and the reactions of the metals?

 

[MolaKule]

They attract themselves to the metal, form a special film while guarding against being attacked by acidic components of the oil.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
They attract themselves to the metal, form a special film while guarding against being attacked by acidic components of the oil.

---

Moly... and what other deactivators can be mixed?

I mean, if you have 2 oils base the same,
1 Has moly (lots)
1 Has no moly
Would the one that contains moly be limited to the types of other deactivators?

Can they ALL be mixed in a brew, or are they all like Moly and want to fight for space on the metal?
Are any of these METAL specific?

 

[MolaKule]

Most metal deactivators work with a wide range of FM/AW/EP/antioxidant and DD packages.

Note that if "disodium dimercaptobenzothiazole" is used your UOA will show some sodium.


Most additives developed in the last 15 years are compatible with most other additives and base oils. For example, an ashless anti-oxidant is compatible with both mineral and synthetic base oils. This ashless antioxidant is both miscible and compatible with other additives.

Most additives today come from the additive developer with treatment rate recommendations. It is up to you, the formulation chemist/blender, to test different additive levels against ASTM tests.

Also please realize that many additives are "MULTIFUNCTIONAL," in that they function in more than one Protection or Performance capacity:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000032

Why place an additional ashless metal deactivator in an oil when you already have some protection from Multifunctional additives?

Because the ZDDP add for example may only protect iron and steel, while the ashless metal deactivator would protect bronze, copper, and brass parts. In addition, when one type of add decomposes to the point it no longer protects, the SECONDARY additive can take up the slack; this also gives the total ADD package a longer drain interval.

For example, even when ZDDP is used as an AW add, Moly and Boron may also be included to "back-up" the ZDDP when necesaary. Or if the ZDDP levels are lowered to accomodate cat poisoning reduction, the boron and moly adds help reduce friction and wear when the low amount of ZDDP has depleted its functions.

[ September 09, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
--snip--
In addition, when one type of add decomposes to the point it no longer protects, the SECONDARY additive can take up the slack; this also gives the total ADD package a longer drain interval.

For example, even when ZDDP is used as an AW add, Moly and Boron may also be included to "back-up" the ZDDP when necesaary. Or if the ZDDP levels are lowered to accomodate cat poisoning reduction, the boron and moly adds help reduce friction and wear when the low amount of ZDDP has depleted its functions.

---

Again back to my point in other posts, it's the whole package deal. They all work as a team, and unless one knows the proper "MIX", playing chemist is dangerous.

Question is, Is there a way the LAY man can tell with oil testing, when it would benefit him, or how often it would benefit him to drain a 1/2 - 1 quart of oil in order to extend a drain>?

Is there a payback or a ROI on draining some specific amount of oil either every "X" miles
or according to lab tests, verses just allowing the oil to die its natural death? Is there a formula that you know of?

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
[QB--snip-
Why place an additional ashless metal deactivator in an oil when you already have some protection from Multifunctional additives?
--snip[/QB]

---

Eeek, would it be safe to assume that all these things, unless they attatch like moly, but all these de-activators do nothing per se for the metal in themselves, it would be more proper to say that they "Change" the way the OIL reacts with them and the normal contaminates in an
engine. They merely felp or "Fortify" the way an
oil responds to the chemicals present in our modern engines... these engines are under more stress & pressure, temp, and produce more contamination than before, and these additives allow the oil to "LAST" longer. Right!??

 

[MolaKule]

Robbie,

Not necessarily. Each additive forms a film on or with the metal that reacts in a different way.

Some films coat and resist galling by mechanical shearing.

Some chemicals react with the ferrous oxides and form three-layer plastic films.

Some films burrow into the metal and resist acids from getting to the underlying layer(s).

Unless you know the chemistry of the additive and the tribological interactions of the additive with the surfaces, be they iron or broze, you're mixing blind.

This is why so many tests are run with each additive combination and each base oil type on different metals. Lots of variables to consider.

 

[MolaKule]

"They merely felp or "Fortify" the way an oil responds to the chemicals present in our modern engines... these engines are under more stress & pressure, temp, and produce more contamination than before, and these additives allow the oil to "LAST" longer. Right!?? "

The base oils will oxidize, evaporate, and shear. The additives "enhance" the oil by helping the base oil resist evaporation, oxidation and sludge polymerization. They also keep rust and metal corrosion at bay.

Some additives broaden the Viscosity Index and reduce friction and wear.

By doing all of these things, the adds do extend the oil drain.

 

[userfriendly]

Robbie, I think you have to watch your polar tails, and bi-polar tales.
The coating (effect of a surface protection additive) could be removed by the addition of a supliment or lubricant with a non-compatable additive.
Also coatings could be removed when the original lubricant is changed to a different one.