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#529158 - 10/26/02 07:14 AM Good Hydraulic Fluid???
Neil Womack Offline


Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 718
Loc: Central Texas
I'm starting to understand how to pick a good motor oil. You know what the typical figures mean and how pick the best (for me) of a given set of oils. Then what to look for in analysis to see that my chosen oil is up to the task.

What distinguises a great hydraulic fluid from a meets minimum requirments hydraulic fluid?

What should I look for in analysis of used hydraulic fluid?

My only use is in farm tractors. In farm tractors the hydraulic fluid is a combination fluid used for gearcase cooling, lubrication and for true hydraulic type uses.

Additionally everything on a tractor is subject to lots of dirt, vibration, constant high percentage power settings (its not uncommon for a tractor diesel to operate at 75 or 80% power for hours on end) and frequent shock loading.

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#529159 - 10/26/02 04:28 PM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
widman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3071
Loc: Bolivia
When you talk of a Tractor Hydraulic Fluid, you have something much better than a typical Hydraulic Fluid.
A Tractor Fluid THF, UTHF, TDH, etc, has to have a good level of Calcium or other detergent (3000 ppm) or so (although some brands are around 1000), a fair level of ZDDP (1200-1300 each of zinc and phos) for antiwear (although some brands have only about 900). It will also have additives that you will not see in an analisis since they are not metalic, like friction modifiers to reduce clutch wear and brake chatter. A good one will stop the tractor in the Ford M2C134-D Brake Capacity Test in 25 feet, while others will take 35 feet or more. Then add pour point depressors and VI improvers (should be around 130 VI or more). It should pass the GL-4 gear tests, have ample demulsifiers to settle out any water that will get in. A good THF will pass the Gear Wear (Slow Speed FZG ASTM D4998) with 150 to 200 mg of wear in the presence of 1% water. There are products on the market in the U.S. with almost 1000 mg of wear in that test. At the blending plant, there is a $60 per drum difference in addive cost between the good and the normal. There are other products cheaper still. If you have problems with clogged hydraulic filters, you need to change BRANDS of oil, that is the first sign that your oil cannot deal with moisture.
There is some farm equipment that can run on normal hydraulic fluid, but wherever it might be run one day behind a tractor with normal hydraulic fluid and then with a tractor with THF, it is better to convert all equipment to THF to avoid dilution of these additives.

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#529160 - 10/26/02 06:17 PM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
Neil Womack Offline


Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 718
Loc: Central Texas
Widman

Thank you for sharing your considerable knowledge. Now I have a toehold to start my search for the best THF for my applications.

Neil

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#529161 - 10/28/02 08:17 AM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14658
Loc: Midwest
Neilw,

What you need is a tractor/hydraulic fluid of approx. ISO 46 or SAE 30 weight oil.

These oils have special formulations for wet clutch apps and areused for gearing and hydraulics as well.

Below is a swipe for am Amsoil spec Sheet:

APPLICATION

AMSOIL Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil is Recommended for Applications Requiring the Following Specifications:

Tractors

Case International - MS-1207, HYTRAN
Caterpillar - TO-2, TO-3
Deutz-Allis - All
Ford - M2C41-B, M2C134-D, M2C86-B
Hesston/Fiat - All
John Deere - Quatrol, J20C, J20D, J14C
Kubota, UDT - All
Landini - All
Massey-Ferguson - M1127-B, M1129-A, M1135 and M1141 (also known as Permatran III)
Steiger - All
Versatile - All

Transmissions

Detroit Diesel Allison Division - C-4 Hydraulic Systems
ABEX/Denison - HF-0, HF-1, HF-1A, HF-2, HF-2A
Cincinnati Milacron - P-70
Sundstrand - HMS-103
Sperry New Holland - 767166, 287530
Sundstrand Hydraulics, HMS-103

Registered Trademarks

PERFORMANCE DATA

AMSOIL Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil exceeds the following rigorous performance requirements:

Caterpillar Friction Retention Test - Pass
Denison Pump Test (T5D Vane Pump, 46 Series Piston Pump) - Pass
Deutz-Allis Friction Retention Test - Pass, Deutz-Allis Turbo Hydra-Matic Oxidation Test - Pass, Deutz-Allis Power Steering Pump Test - Pass
Ford 7710 IPTO Stall Test - Pass, Ford 7710 Brake Capacity - Pass, Ford 7710 Brake Chatter Test - Pass
John Deere JDQ-42 PTO Clutch (2000) Cycles - Pass, John Deere JDQ-40 Brake Capacity Test - Pass, John Deere JDQ-40 Brake Torque Variation (Chatter) - Pass, John
Deere JDQ-73 Cold Soak @ -35C - Pass, John Deere JDQ-74 Slow Cool @ -30C - Pass, John Deere JDQ-74 Slow Cool @ -35C - Pass
Massey Ferguson MF-285 PTO Clutch - Pass, Massey Ferguson MF-285 Wet Brake Chatter and Torque Characteristics - Pass
Plessy-Sundstrand Gear Pump Test - Pass
Sundstrand Model 22-2132 Variable Displacement, Piston Pump - Pass
Vickers 35VQ-25, Pump Test - Pass

INSTALLATION

AMSOIL Hydraulic/Transmission Oil is fully compatible with conventional hydraulic/transmission oils. To install AMSOIL Hydraulic/Transmission Oil in a hydraulic system,
drain the existing hydraulic/transmission oil, change filters and install AMSOIL Hydraulic/Transmission Oil.

TYPICAL TECHNICAL PROPERTIES
AMSOIL Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil (ATH)
ISO Grade
46
SAE Viscosity
30
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
9.3
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
50.1
Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270)
171
Flash Point C (F) (ASTM D 92)
230 (446)
Fire Point C (F) (ASTM D 92)
242 (468)
Pour Point C (F) (ASTM D 97)
-40 (-40)
Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D 4172B) Scar, mm
0.35

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#529162 - 10/27/02 10:23 PM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1874
Loc: Ocala, Florida
Suggest you look at this.. Schaeffers # 315 SIMPLEX SUPREME SYNTHETIC BLEND designed for use in most farm and industrial tractors There is a whole list of things that you need to look at when you're talking about a tractor that shares the transmissions, differentials, final drives, hydraulic and power steering systems and wet brake systems of such equipment, especially those employing a common reservoir or sump.

At the bottom of the page is a list with specific tractors to see if your's is listed.

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#529163 - 10/29/02 08:14 AM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14658
Loc: Midwest
Thanks Bob, I was trying to locate an equivalent Schaeffer's product to swipe, but couldn't find it at the time.

Also, Majestic Oil has those fluids as well and are sold in Atwoods, Orscheln, TFS, and other Ranch and Farm Supply outlets. I do not know the quality of these products but most are sold in 5-gallon pales.

I would try Schaeffer's or Amsoil before using the Majestic oils.

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#529164 - 10/29/02 02:13 AM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
Neil Womack Offline


Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 718
Loc: Central Texas
Almost every petro company makes a version of Universal Tractor Hydraulic Fluid, THF. Plus many places buy rebranded THF plus every tractor manufacturer rebrands or formulates their own and bids them out.

I expect like motor oil, some companies make THF to meet low bid specification (read poor quality bad bargin), most make average THF and a few make superior THF.

If price alone was the way to pick the best product then Chevron Synthetic All Weather THF, at $16.40 per gallon, would be the best. And Sunflower Branded THF at $3.85 per gallon would be the worst.

Has anybody got an opinion?

Not ad copy but a real opinion on what makes a the difference betweem average THF and superior THF.

Or did Widman cover the topic fully?

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#529165 - 10/29/02 05:23 PM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1874
Loc: Ocala, Florida
well, at wholesale our 315 avgs about 9.80 per gal. and I can assure you the price isnt reflective of the quality IMO.

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#529166 - 10/31/02 02:11 PM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
widman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3071
Loc: Bolivia
Most brands will not tell you whose additive package they use, but I have studies (sorry, these I can't publish) that show huge differences between them from the additives. Both products I carry use the Oronite package that far surpasses the others. (Last I heard the John Deere, Massey, and Ford factory fill tractor fluids also use Oronite)

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#529167 - 10/31/02 09:46 PM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14658
Loc: Midwest
Oronite is but one of the many quality additive companies.

Other major players are:

Lubrizol, Infineum, RT Vanderbilt, Ciba Geigy, and Crompton.

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#529168 - 11/01/02 07:59 AM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
GeorgeCLS Offline


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 531
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
One major difference in the tractor fluids is their ability to live with yellow metals. My understanding is that the Orinite packages do react with yellow metals while the Lubrizol ad pack does not but is much more expensive. I do know that Mobilfluid 424 is one of the few that use the Lubrizol ad pack and is also more costly than many other of the mainline brands. I would be interested to know what ad pack Schaeffer's is using.
George

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#529169 - 11/01/02 06:39 PM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1874
Loc: Ocala, Florida
George, I honestly couln't tell you what exactly they are using. I would be lying to you to tell you anything else.

I'd say for one thing it is slightly different than most as they do use the solubel moly in some of these fluids that are not wet braked application or filtered, which I've seen reduce the temps quite a bit because of this and also they have a seal conditioner in them as well.

I've seen on one of my farmers where he has this one JD tractor that he could never get all the little leaks to stop and I finally convince this guy to try some on just that one tractor. He now uses it in all of his equipment.

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#529170 - 11/04/02 06:49 AM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
Neil Womack Offline


Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 718
Loc: Central Texas
Just today I received my virgin analysis of Schaeffer's #115 Simplex Torque Fluid.

Iron = 1,
Alum = 1,
Silicon = 5,
Moly = 2,
Sodium = 2,
Magnesium = 8,
Zinc = 1010,
Phos. = 895,
Cal = 2420,

Large Particle Count in microns:
Greater than 5 = 6752
Greater than 10 = 1545
Greater than 15 = 135
Greater than 20 = 33
Greater than 25 = 26
Greater than 50 = 15
Greater than 75 = 9
Greater than 100 = 5
IsoCode 20/14

What do you think?

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#529171 - 11/04/02 07:57 PM Re: Good Hydraulic Fluid???
msparks Offline


Registered: 06/11/02
Posts: 3324
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee
Neil,

Amsoil's ATH tractor hydraulic fluid works great.

Especially if you experiencing brake chatter. Also during extreme high/or low temperature operation the amsoil product will protect where others cannot.

If you would like I can email you a spec sheet on it.

[ November 05, 2002, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: msparks ]

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