Help with poor running Echo SRM-210

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I have a 2003 Echo SRM-210 with i-start addon purchased mostly on brand reputation, recommendation from a small engine repair shop and my desire to get something serviceable, not disposable, and of high quality that would last a very long time.

I have about 2000 sq ft of grass and fairly low complexity trimming requirements. Each lawn mow cycle probably sees 5-10 minutes of trimmer usage. This means what, 1-2 hours per year since 2003? I usually only go through 1.0-1.5 trimmer tanks of fuel mixture in a year. For "yard" fuel I have premium (91 or 92 AKI) fuel from one of Shell, Sunoco or Esso with Stabil added at the time of purchase. I use this in mower, power washer, and spare for the car in a pinch (hence premium). To this I mix Echo Powerblend 50:1 as per directions in as small a quantity as I can for the season.

Last winter I disassembled most of the unit and cleaned/lubricated where ever I could, checked/cleaned/gapped the plug, spark arrestor, carb, etc... The air filter is clean. When not in use during the summer season the unit hangs from a hook in my garage, motor down. In my situation this is safer than motor up simply due to the weight distribution and keeping the bulk of the item lower to reduce the risk of being knocked off of the wall. Sometimes some oil is found on the engine but not predictably in one spot - it's conceiveable that something is leaking, or the carb is getting an inappropriate amount of fuel/oil in this position. I don't seem to lose an appreciable amount from the tank or get any dripping. Hanging the other way might help, and perhaps something is gumming up causing my problems. I'm open to suggestions.

Since shortly after break in it's cold start and running properties have been poor. It almost never gets FULLY warmed up with the size of my yard, but when it is it runs quite well.

After priming 4-5 times beyond seeing proper fuel flow through the lines it takes a number of pulls to start trying to run, and almost always stalls at least once after it does start running. It's sometimes unpredictable how the choke works - sometimes stalling more with it, sometimes more without. When started, it misses a lot (shaking) and four strokes quite a bit from idle to half throttle. Often, if you pull the throttle trigger you hear the extra intake noise of the throttle opening, but the engine doesn't really respond and continues at idle speed.

As it warms, it gets better throttle response, although still tends to miss occasionally and four-stroke noticeably. I rarely use it wide open, usually more like half to three quarters. No smoke is visible in the exhaust, the exhaust is not wet. My two stroke experience is limited to 0.12ci RC car nitromethane engines, but my experience tells me that it's probably just running rich but there are no adjustments, the choke clears out of the way properly and the air filter is fine (I've run it with it off completely just as a test). If it had any needle adjustments I probably would have leaned it out.

I bought from a small engine shop even though Home Depot has the model. When I consulted them on the phone while it was under warranty they wanted me to pay for a complete tune up and wanted to keep the unit far too long (weeks) during grass-grows-like-weeds season. (So much for 'better service') I was hoping that my full cleaning and overhaul would help, but it hasn't completely. Brand new fresh fuel doesn't magically fix it either.

I generally maintain my power equipment and cars fanatically well. This trimmer doesn't see enough hours, in my opinion, and it's tough to do it better with only the one two stroke device in the stable and it sees so little use. I want to treat it better, and to fresher fuel, but I simply can't get rid of it fast enough. I'm planning to try another plug, just in case.

Related: After reading here a bit I'm considering mixing my oil 40:1 Echo for this season. Unless, of course, too much oil is somehow causing my problems by gooping things up.


Tips?

Thanks,
Craig.
 
This may not have anything to do with your problem but I have a John Deere with a lot of the same symptoms. My problem was on the side of the muffler was a small plate with 2 screws. I removed the plate and inside was a screen that was almost completely clogged up. I removed the screen-fired up the Deere and it has been running like a new one ever since.
Also on the subject of oil to gas ratio I don't think that you will have a problem running 40:1
 
Have you tried adjusting the mixture screws? There's one for idle marked 'L' and one for high speed marked 'H'.

You adjust the idle mixture by turning the low speed mixture screw during idle.

You adjust the high speed mixture by turning the high speed mixture screw while squeezing the throttle all the way.

In both cases you're listening for a nice steady RPM which indicates the correct air to fuel ratio of about 14:1.

Another thing you might look at is the fuel pump diaphragm in the carburetor. This is a paper thin piece of PVC coated fabric. This diaphragm must remain pliable. Sometimes they get dry, in which case they won't pump fuel.

All gasoline engines have two basic needs: a steady flow of air and fuel in the correct amounts, and steady ignition spark a little ways before piston top dead center on the compression stroke. Given they have these two necessities, the engines should run.

Aside from what I mentioned above, you can eliminate a lot of variables simply by keeping the engine clean.

GR
 
I used Sta-Bil for a couple years, but something kept gumming [to the point of becoming solid] the rings in my Ryobi leaf blower. This gave the performance you're describing. Stopped using Sta-Bil, problem went away [after I replaced the piston AGAIN].

Dave
 
Thank you for the replies so far. My responses:


1. lawnman, I think you're referring to the spark arrestor screen. This was clean last winter when I took everything apart.

2. GoldenRod, there are no mixture screws. The display model at the engine shop had them (part of why I wanted a "real" trimmer and not a disposable piece of crap) only to find that the one I actually received did not have any adjustments other than idle speed. I do believe the manual states that the carb has been pre-adjusted at the factory and will never need adjustment during the life of the tool.
rolleyes.gif
As I mentioned my experience with small nitro two strokes includes good skill at tuning. We have to tune those engines for sufficient lube, throttle response, WOT power, reliable glowplug operation *and* head temperature (not usually considered for lawn tools). If there are hidden adjustments somewhere, someone PLEASE tell me where.
On the diaphragm, do you mean they get dry after years, or weeks? It's not very old, so I wouldn't have thought this was an age problem. On top of this, I am currently thinking it's too rich, which doesn't mean lack of fuel, but I could be wrong. A rich nitro engine is very blubbery and wet, and four strokes, but doesn't usually miss.

3. n8wvi, I *think* that I may have run fuel with no sta-bil in it at one time two years ago and I don't recall that fixing anything. As I mentioned I go through VERY little fuel for yard work because everything I have seems so darn fuel efficient (Honda mower). I want to buy full gas cans so I have some supply for the car if we ever have a multi-day blackout again. One can of gas would probably last me two seasons if I didn't come up with creative ways to use it up. I started putting sta-bil in right away when I figured out why my usage patterns would be at this house (which we bought in 2003). Maybe instead of filling my tiny 2-stroke gas can from my current supply I'll go and get it straight from the pump this year, add PowerBlend, and no sta-bil. Maybe the stabilizer additives in powerblend are not agreeing with the sta-bil? Maybe I shouldn't use powerblend and just get a 2-stroke oil. Did your Ryobi only have problems when cold, or all the time? I really don't relish changing pistons on an engine with
Thanks,Craig
 
maybe its the premium gas your using. I know with my B&S engine on my troy built push mower. I used premium gas in it one year. it was a pain in the *** to get started. but once started it ran fine. I went back to 87 octane and one pull start. maybe you need to try 87 octane and see if that cured your problem.

I dont have a top of the line weed trimmer. but I always thought all 2 stroke engines was a PITA to start when cold. I know mone is. but once warmed up. if I turn it off. its one start pull.

so I would try the 87 octane and see how it does.
 
UPDATE:

I didn't read Dark Jedi's comments before going out tonight, but I was filling up the car and took 4L of Shell V-Power 91 for the two-stroke mix as well. I used no Sta-bil and added a little 5L 'mix' bottle of Echo Power Blend (remember I mentioned wanting to try 40:1 this season) and shook like crazy. I removed every drop of old fuel I could from the trimmer using the priming bubble and filled with fresh mix.

I was not able to find a proper plug at any of the stores I tried this evening.

Pretty much the same thing. Shaking, missing and four stroking a lot. Started on the third or forth pull, with a little spark on the second. Between the second and third pull I had to open the choke and throttle to get it to run, then move it to half to keep running, then back to open again 10s later. It's about 12-13C tonight.

After it warmed up a little, just for kicks, I pushed the primer bubble and halfway through the push it seemed to smooth out but that's not a very long time to observe a trend. Of course during the "suck phase" it nearly stalled. Closing the choke also casues it to blubber, slow and stall - no surprise, but probably also not running lean or it would improve as I closed the choke, no?. After running (mostly idling and part throttle/no load, I didn't do any trimming) I pulled the plug and it was wet and not fouled. Restarts were easy with one pull. Since running this 40:1 there appears to be some oil at the exhaust outlet, I never really noticed it at 50:1.

Is it possibly too lean, hence the smoothing from the primer push while idling? I thought four stroking was definitely a rich symptom.

Timing? (obviously not meant to be adjustable)

Perhaps I should do a trimmer version of an Italian tune up? Warm it up gently then let'er rip at WOT for a full minute with proper string load of course.
 
One thing you should know. All those commercial Echo trimmers you see running just fine while being used by incompetents have a difference. They use a type of carburetor that works.

I replaced my carb with an Echo replacemnet unit and it fixed my problems (which seem to be the very same as yours). The replacement carb is totally different than the OEM (made in China) carb. My local shop turned me on to this fact.

My original was a Zama K66 23A. Even with modification, I could not get it to start or run right. (I am a motorhead of the Nth degree).

The replacement is a Zama RB-270A. It truly is different in many ways (for the better).

Fact is, the replacement carb makes the unit run like the old Echo's. Starts on one pull, runs cleanly, no lean surge, warms up right away etc.

Chris
 
They use to put limit caps on the mixture screws and now you're saying there are none at all?
shocked.gif


If you're saying that you have only 10 hours on the trimmer then more than likely the diaphragm is fine. Something to keep in mind for the future though.

When you say small nitro 2-strokes are you talking about radio control models?
 
Cujet: Now this is interesting. But, if it is the case that you need to use a secret handshake to buy a replacement carb that actually works, why does the Echo SRM have so many rave reviews from Joe Homeowner singing the praises of always starting on one pull, running smooth and lasting forever? Does your new carb have field serviceable adjustments? What kind of $$ are we talking about? BTW, there isn't a single google hit on "Zama RB-270A", nor is it on the www.zamacarb.com website. You don't mean RB-K70A, do you?

Goldenrod: My 2003 model has no adjustments. Every year I look at the SRMs on display at Home Depot and they also have no adjustments right up to two days ago. If some of you folks in the states are buying new SRMs over the last three years and you have carb adjustments, I'm going to have to have a little chat with some people around here.

My small nitro 2-stroke experience is remote control land vehicles which, unlike RC planes, require a large range of RPM, excellent throttle response, and have inadequate cooling.

Craig.
 
Craig,

The problem with carbs that (have no mixture screws) is that they are adjusted permanently at the factory for a specific sea leval. What happens when the small engine is moved to a location to where the air density is other than what it was originally adjusted for? Well I'll tell you, it's either going to run too rich or too lean to support proper combustion.

I would advise you to get ahold of a carb that was intended to be used on out of state Echos. Meaning a non-California version. I would just get the model number of an older Echo that use an adjustable carb and get a replacement carb for that model number.

Bye the way, why hasn't Home Depot just given you a new Echo trimmer?
 
quote:

Originally posted by GoldenRod:
Craig,

The problem with carbs that (have no mixture screws) is that they are adjusted permanently at the factory for a specific sea leval. What happens when the small engine is moved to a location to where the air density is other than what it was originally adjusted for? Well I'll tell you, it's either going to run too rich or too lean to support proper combustion.

I would advise you to get ahold of a carb that was intended to be used on out of state Echos. Meaning a non-California version. I would just get the model number of an older Echo that use an adjustable carb and get a replacement carb for that model number.

Bye the way, why hasn't Home Depot just given you a new Echo trimmer?


Goldenrod: Obviously I'd prefer adjustments, but no Echos around here seem to have them anymore. Does this mean that all the rave reviews of Echos I read are all for older high emissions ones and everyone with a new echo is getting poor performance like I am?

Also, I'm not high altitude, we're right on the shore of one of the great lakes. Toronto airport runway elevation is 569ft, and I am lower elevation than that being much closer to Lake Ontario.

I'm nowhere near California, I'm in Canada, I can't see that I would have a special California carb so looking for 'out of state' isn't going to help me, but looking for 'ancient' might?

I didn't buy the unit at Home Depot, I bought it at a small engine place. One of my posts describes that they have inconvenient hours and wanted a $75 tune up fee and 3 weeks just to take a look at it at a time when I couldn't afford to give it up for that long. Now, of course, it's out of warranty. My problem/fault/procrastination, yes, but I'm looking to find a solution and I'm interested in attempting to fix it myself because I like doing that sort of thing.

Maybe a plug will help. After that I may be off to an engine place to look into the prospect of an improved carb. I'm all for low emissions, and that's one of the reasons I bought an Echo in 2003 instead of a Stihl - Echo met 2005 emissions regulations. It figures that that fact may be what ends up screwing me
mad.gif
It still works but I think it should work better.
 
I don't mean to nag you about the mixture adjustment issue, but it would definitely take one of the variables out of the equation.

Do you have plenty of spark? What I do for checking for spark is: pull off the starter clutch housing, take spark plug out, hook up a socket to the flywheel nut, and spin it with an electric drill at normal rotation while holding the spark plug with nose pliers next to a good ground. This gives me an idea of the spark output in real speed. You can do this trick with all small engines, 2-stroke and 4-stroke.
 
Interesting you should ask about spark. The other night while I was alone and it was getting dark I was looking for a way to check this by trying to see a spark jump from the cable to the plug when it was held nearby. I just didn't have enough hands. I'll try to get a chance to check it out with your method this weekend.
 
Craig, the Echo replacement carb I installed is the one LISTED in the Echo book. However it is different. It is adjustable, just not in the sense of the old style carbs. It does not have 2 mixture screws on the outside like the old carbs.

It is a bolt on replacement and looks similar, but not the same. Certainly it is higher quality than the original.

I will check the P/N when I get home.

Chris
 
OK, I am sorry for the trouble I caused you by making you look for the wrong part number.

What I installed was a Zama ZA-RB-K70A carb W/Plug

SKU 0400130082646

It is the official replacement carb for my Echo 210 (split link) trimmer.

I remember paying about $50.00.

Chris
 
quote:

Originally posted by Cujet:
It is adjustable, just not in the sense of the old style carbs. It does not have 2 mixture screws on the outside like the old carbs.

Can you elaborate (or give a reference) on how adjustments are made then?

Thanks,
Craig.
 
Hi Craig,

The new carb has a tiny, externally accessable, brass screw near the squeeze bulb. It is located in a brass insert between the fuel lines. The screwdriver would come in from the squeeze bulb side.

The original carb did not have any screw in this location. It had a plastic plug with a jet underneath.

I have not had to adjust the screw, however I believe it is a high speed adjust screw.

keep in mind that these carbs adjust mixture with throttle opening also.

Chris
 
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