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#374854 - 01/05/04 09:29 AM Goodbye 2nd Amendment
wulimaster Offline


Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 1011
Loc: Montgomery, Alabama

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#374855 - 01/05/04 09:46 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Steve S Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18449
Loc: East of IGO
can't have guns in the new world order.

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#374856 - 01/05/04 12:06 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Chris B. Offline


Registered: 03/16/03
Posts: 2900
Loc: Colorado
This is a scary read! I'm an NRA member and I really wish more gun owners would join up to help us keep the 2nd in tact. Please join and help out if you want to keep your guns. The NRA might not be perfect but beleve it, they are the most powerful force fighting so you can keep yor guns!

If the 2nd falls all the rest will to and America will be no more!

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#374857 - 01/05/04 12:28 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Chris B. Offline


Registered: 03/16/03
Posts: 2900
Loc: Colorado
We were just talking at the gun shop the other day about if the government tried to go door to door taking away the peoples guns it would cause a civil war and a lot of people would die. Americans are different then any body else, you just don't walk up to the front door and say "hand em' over" if you want to keep you head and the govenment knows this.

There are over 80 million gun owners in America and if less the 1% would fight to the death that would be an army of over 500,000 people taking pot shots from every other nuk and crany. That is an intimadating force. Gun confiscation would never work in this country and that is a good thing.

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#374858 - 01/05/04 02:50 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Motorbike Offline


Registered: 11/25/03
Posts: 2602
Loc: The Tropics of Antartica
quote:
Originally posted by Chris B.:

Gun confiscation would never work in this country and that is a good thing.

Amen !

I don't think this generation American Soldier would be up for that duty anyway .

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#374859 - 01/05/04 04:06 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13581
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
Edgar J. Steele needs to take a pill and stop worrying.

Worry instead about our out of control spending and immigration policy.

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#374860 - 01/05/04 05:49 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
msparks Offline


Registered: 06/11/02
Posts: 3324
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee
quote:
Originally posted by Chris B.:
We were just talking at the gun shop the other day about if the government tried to go door to door taking away the peoples guns it would cause a civil war and a lot of people would die. Americans are different then any body else, you just don't walk up to the front door and say "hand em' over" if you want to keep you head and the govenment knows this.

Um the left is much smarter than that. Do you believe that the other countries just handed their guns over?? No, the first instilled a very very liberal government, in schools and other aspects of human development(Social Programs) Therefore about 90% of the population is so brainwashed in to thinking from the left that they will gladly give up thier rights to self protection,(becuase the government will do it for us).

If you look to Australia, yes they had a lot of gun owners too. But did you see people out killing each other before they handed in their guns?? Most Americans are law abiding citizens, when the time is right(about 80% liberal) they will just pass a law and all but a few will gladly turn in their guns. This will happen even fast when the legalize illegal immigration.

I feel this is truley the downslide of the USA. 200+ years is a good record, but we will have a demise "FROM THE EMEMY WITHIN"

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#374861 - 01/05/04 06:48 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
JohnnyO Offline


Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
[Cool] I ran out an got a gun permit when PA elected a Democrat governor last year and I didn't even own a gun at the time. At least I'm set for 5 years. State income tax just went up, I knew that would happen. [Roll Eyes]

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#374862 - 01/05/04 06:48 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by Chris B.:
Americans are different then any body else, you just don't walk up to the front door and say "hand em' over" if you want to keep you head and the govenment knows this.

Right. But nobody would be stupid enough to try to collect them all at once. Instead, they whittle away the freedom by banning one gun at a time. Every year the list of banned guns grows longer. Every year the "regulations" for gun owners increase in complexity. Eventually nobody has guns anymore. It's done gradually with little to no bloodshed.

That's how it's been done in the past. Some states in the USA area already walking down this path. If it weren't for the NRA the confiscation would have been completed here in the USA just like it's already been done in other countries.

So what is unique about the USA is not that gun owners have more guts and are willing to fight... but rather that no other country had a civil rights organization like the NRA with such strong popular support.

It will never happen here in the USA as long as the NRA has widespread popular support. All responsible gun owners should be NRA members.

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#374863 - 01/05/04 07:29 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
shortyb Offline


Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 1233
Loc: Simpsonville SC
quote:
Originally posted by MRC01:
But nobody would be stupid enough to try to collect them all at once. Instead, they whittle away the freedom by banning one gun at a time. Every year the list of banned guns grows longer. Every year the "regulations" for gun owners increase in complexity. Eventually nobody has guns anymore. It's done gradually with little to no bloodshed.


"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns".

I have my bandana ready [Big Grin] .

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#374864 - 01/06/04 08:10 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Dan4510 Offline


Registered: 05/19/03
Posts: 2363
Loc: Texas
paraphrase from Lenin:

If a populace lets government take away their arms, the government should then do with the populace as it wishes....

Dan

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#374865 - 01/05/04 10:41 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Chris B. Offline


Registered: 03/16/03
Posts: 2900
Loc: Colorado
quote:
Originally posted by MRC01:
quote:
Originally posted by Chris B.:
Americans are different then any body else, you just don't walk up to the front door and say "hand em' over" if you want to keep you head and the govenment knows this.

Right. But nobody would be stupid enough to try to collect them all at once. Instead, they whittle away the freedom by banning one gun at a time. Every year the list of banned guns grows longer. Every year the "regulations" for gun owners increase in complexity. Eventually nobody has guns anymore. It's done gradually with little to no bloodshed.

That's how it's been done in the past. Some states in the USA area already walking down this path. If it weren't for the NRA the confiscation would have been completed here in the USA just like it's already been done in other countries.

So what is unique about the USA is not that gun owners have more guts and are willing to fight... but rather that no other country had a civil rights organization like the NRA with such strong popular support.

It will never happen here in the USA as long as the NRA has widespread popular support. All responsible gun owners should be NRA members.

You are 100% right! It is a slow ongoing process. If it ever came down to it in the near future where the government went door to door for all guns they and us would have major problems but they are smarter then that! And every responsible Gun owner and even non gun owners who value their freedom and constitution should join the NRA!

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#374866 - 01/05/04 11:33 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
cryptokid Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 1565
Loc: palm beach
if they ever tries to take my guns i would probably report them stolen, and keep them hidden for my safety.
the criminals wont give their guns up, so i shouldnt either.

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#374867 - 01/05/04 11:46 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13581
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by Chris B.:
the government went door but they are smarter then that

I still think you guys give the "government" (they) too much "credit" for being able to hatch come kind of conspiracy or secret long term goal about taking guns away etc.

Here's a news flash... the "government" is made up of political parties who have chiefly as their agenda getting and staying in power. They use "pork" and other methods of accomplising this. Yes...he Liberals would like to see guns gone all the poor folks receiving free government-money but only bc they need a base to stay in power. The Republicans would like to see Jesus watching over government building....and women chained to their beds and powerless to chose the right of abortion. But none of this is gonna happen. But in the end there will be much wringing of hands and worryi9ng about it. The history of gun control is that (in spite of all the hype to the contrary is that the "Must Issue (CCW) " is gaining momentum-in Pa you couldn't get a permit unless you knew someone. Now everyone who isn't a felon or doesn't have a mental history gets one. [Smile]

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#374868 - 01/05/04 11:59 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
jason07-1zzfe Offline


Registered: 06/10/02
Posts: 2095
Loc: IL
Al, it's happened in other countries, why do you think it can't happen here? It doesn't take a vast conspiracy, only a few lefty nuts and lots of sheeple

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#374869 - 01/06/04 02:21 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Bob Woods Offline


Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1342
Loc: North of Dallas Texas
I would think that Iraq's history proves that gun ownership will not stop a dirtbag from gaining power. Iraq has been one of the most armed nation in the world. Gunowner rights are given to use by the constitution are will be hard to take away. But its a great knee jerk cause to take attention away from the problem of PC and other crap that will undermine the other freedoms in the bill of rights. Also think about this, The NRA has the largest data base of gun owners, even larger than the Governments. We don't worry about our cars and trucks, and airplanes, (FAA has a online data base that allows anyone to enter the "N" number and find out who owns it) being taken away yet we register them yearly, we gladly fill our product registration cards and mail them in. We leave our electronic thumbprints all over the internet for who knows whom to use as they wish. There are alot of well paid people (lobbyists are expensive) that make a good living out of scaring gunowners into thinking there rights and priviledges are in danger.

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#374870 - 01/06/04 02:33 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13581
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Woods:
I would think that Iraq's history proves that gun ownership will not stop a dirtbag from gaining power. Iraq has been one of the most armed nation in the world. Gunowner rights are given to use by the constitution are will be hard to take away. But its a great knee jerk cause to take attention away from the problem of PC and other crap that will undermine the other freedoms in the bill of rights. Also think about this, The NRA has the largest data base of gun owners, even larger than the Governments.

There are alot of well paid people (lobbyists are expensive) that make a good living out of scaring gunowners into thinking there rights and
priviledges are in danger.
.

You are 100% Correct Sir. I am 58 years old and the fear mongers have beating this drum as long as I can remember. And the number of guns has doubled in the U.S. in the last 15 years [LOL!] [LOL!]

This, on the other hand is something to worry about [Frown]
Dollar Plunges

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#374871 - 01/06/04 02:38 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MillerMan Offline


Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Minn/Wis
they declared war on drugs and can declare war on guns the same way, it's a illegal object, they can put ya away, take your house and car.

it maybe coming

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#374872 - 01/06/04 03:13 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Drew99GT Offline


Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 20764
Loc: Colorado Springs
Did anyone catch that episode of American Shooter (fairly lame TV show [LOL!] ) that profiled the guy who invented reloading presses? In a nutshell, he had a few electronic/hydraulically mounted mini guns, and some anti-aircraft battery that had like 6 fifty caliber machine guns. He's not the only private citizen in the US that literally has a legally owned weapons cache. I'd hate to be the ATF agents that come to confiscate the BIG GUNS!!

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#374873 - 01/06/04 03:15 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Drew99GT Offline


Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 20764
Loc: Colorado Springs
quote:
Originally posted by Al:
[QUOTE]

This, on the other hand is something to worry about [Frown]
Dollar Plunges

That, and gold hitting a 15 year high, along with other precious metals/infaltionary hegdes. Seems commodities markets are expecting a bout of high interest rates and inflation possibly?

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#374874 - 01/06/04 03:33 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
tweeker43 Offline


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 1253
Loc: michigan
that is such a scary analogy. i've had similar thoughts myself. if you were married and got arrested for some minor drug offence your family could lose everything. connect this with overzealous enforcement (like the cases in texas and california) and we could be in deep stuff.

just to throw one other illegal act in there:
sex - you can give it away, but you can't sell it.

quote:
Originally posted by MillerMan:
they declared war on drugs and can declare war on guns the same way, it's a illegal object, they can put ya away, take your house and car.

it maybe coming


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#374875 - 01/06/04 05:29 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13581
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by MillerMan:
they declared war on drugs and can declare war on guns the same way, it's a illegal object, they can put ya away, take your house and car.

it maybe coming

Well, last time I checked-drug posession wasn't protected by the U.S. Constitution [Smile] [Smile]

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#374876 - 01/06/04 05:37 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MillerMan Offline


Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Minn/Wis
they kick down your door for drugs, and they already have kicked down peoples doors for guns, and these people were not drug dealers or criminals

the same principle applies [Thumbs Down!]

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#374877 - 01/06/04 05:48 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
tweeker43 Offline


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 1253
Loc: michigan
no, but from a libertarian point of view drug possession is not prohibited either. [Smile]

prohibition didn't work, the war on drugs won't work, and trying to ban guns won't work either.

when my dad (democrat, btw) was k-8 principal he brought in the local dnr officer once a year to teach hunter safety.

i am opposed to gun control, but i'm all for gun education. they'd certainly be more practical self defense if people were confident in how to use them.

i personally don't have one, but i've been hunting and shooting in the past. if someone broke into my house and i were asleep, they could probably get about 4 shots off before i woke up.

[/qb][/QUOTE]Well, last time I checked-drug posession wasn't protected by the U.S. Constitution [Smile] [Smile] [/QB][/QUOTE]

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#374878 - 01/06/04 06:03 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MillerMan Offline


Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Minn/Wis
I am not for legalizing drugs, except for MAYBE weed.

but what is going on in this country is not right.
taking a nobody that never hurt anybody and putting them away for years is wrong.

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#374879 - 01/06/04 08:31 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Bob Woods Offline


Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1342
Loc: North of Dallas Texas
"taking a nobody that never hurt anybody and putting them away for years is wrong."

Thats not near as bad as "letting a somebody get away with murder". We are losing the war on drugs, I say decriminalize it. Make it a felony to commit a crime, any crime using a firearm. The mandatory drug sentencing rules suck, as do any mandatory sentening rules.

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#374880 - 01/06/04 09:02 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Woods:
"taking a nobody that never hurt anybody and putting them away for years is wrong."

Thats not near as bad as "letting a somebody get away with murder".

You think it's worse to let a guilty man go free, than to punish an innocent? Did I read that correctly? That runs counter to the tradition of law as we know it. In fact, Blackstone so famously said it was actually better to let 10 guilty men go free than to punish one innocent. Our entire criminal justice system is based on this principle.

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#374881 - 01/06/04 09:20 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MillerMan Offline


Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Minn/Wis
prison/jail is big business these days $$$$$$$$$$$$ prison doesn't really work
I am against mandatory sentences too

But I am not sticking up for murders,rapest, child molestors or repeat violent criminals, these people should never get out.

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#374882 - 01/06/04 10:27 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Dan4510 Offline


Registered: 05/19/03
Posts: 2363
Loc: Texas
BTW, if the 2nd amendment ever goes, the rest of the bill of rights will be down the tubes. It is the essential right that must be protected or none of the others matter.

At the base of the drug war is the war on private property rights. Before the drug war, property was only subject to forfieture after long, costly proceedings. Now, if a cop feels like it, he can empty your wallet or take your car and you have no recourse. ANYONE can at ANYTIME be arrested on a charge that allows forfieture.

Any number of crimes now kick in the asset forfieture provisions. Legislators love asset forfieture, it adds money to the public purse at litte or no cost.

For example, in Louisiana, the judge, prosector, and the police that take your property divide it up, and the judge that gets a cut decides if it is illegal or not. By definition, it is bad to let the lion guard the sheep....Human nature comes out.

One of the greatest travesties is that right now, the federal government operates a casino it took and operates it at a loss using tax money!

if you really want to get paranoid, look at www.fear.org

Dan

[ January 07, 2004, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: Dan4510 ]

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#374883 - 01/06/04 11:01 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MillerMan Offline


Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Minn/Wis
and the right was a big part of starting this, it was both parties, but Bush Sr. really got the ball rolling.

Bush Sr. was very much for gun control, people blame clinton, but Bush Sr. was maybe even worse

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#374884 - 01/06/04 05:57 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Dan4510 Offline


Registered: 05/19/03
Posts: 2363
Loc: Texas
What is really funny is that this stuff is being attributed to one side or the other politically. No one ever gets it: both are equally responsible....Both sides buy votes by giving our money from the public treasury...both sides use the absolute ignorance of the masses to pass more and more law to take more and more freedom away.

It will only get worse until enough of us get behind and push for freedom over security. It may already be too late, however, Benjamin Franklin's warning is coming true.

Dan

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#374885 - 01/06/04 06:10 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
47HO Offline


Registered: 11/18/02
Posts: 379
Loc: Alabama
quote:
Also think about this, The NRA has the largest data base of gun owners, even larger than the Governments.
Where did you get this? I've been a member of the NRA for 20 years, and not once has the NRA asked me for this info.

quote:
We don't worry about our cars and trucks, and airplanes, (FAA has a online data base that allows anyone to enter the "N" number and find out who owns it) being taken away yet we register them yearly, we gladly fill our product registration cards and mail them in. We leave our electronic thumbprints all over the internet for who knows whom to use as they wish. There are alot of well paid people (lobbyists are expensive) that make a good living out of scaring gunowners into thinking there rights and priviledges are in danger.
You see, that's where you are confused. All the things you mentioned that we don't seem to mind registering are priviledges, gun ownership is a right.

And BTW, gun registration is exactly the means used by Britain and Australia over the years to track and confiscate its citizens (subjects) firearms.

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#374886 - 01/07/04 08:39 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Bob Woods Offline


Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1342
Loc: North of Dallas Texas
You think it's worse to let a guilty man go free, than to punish an innocent? Did I read that correctly?

Maybe not! notice the "a" in front of the word somebody. I too believe it is better to have a guilty man walk the street than to have an innocent man spend one day in jail. But we all know drugs are illegal, if you are in possession you are breaking the law.

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#374887 - 01/06/04 11:23 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Woods:
But we all know drugs are illegal, if you are in possession you are breaking the law.

True. But there are a lot of unjust laws, and we get into a much more complicated situation regarding their enforcement.

When the founders of this country used the phrase "inalienable rights", they meant that all responsible people inherently have these rights from God or Nature, regardless of what any government might say or do. Governments may fail to recognize these rights, but that doesn't mean the rights don't exist. Such governments are merely tyrannies refusing to recognize basic laws of nature.

Or, as Dickens said so succinctly, sometimes "The law is an *** !".

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#374888 - 01/06/04 11:46 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MillerMan Offline


Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Minn/Wis
"You see, that's where you are confused. All the things you mentioned that we don't seem to mind registering are priviledges, gun ownership is a right.

unsure what your saying here, hunting and fishing is not a right, courts have held that it is a priviledge, not a right. and the same goes for guns too, even the NRA which claims that it is a right, fails and supports gun control, that effectively makes it a priviledge, not a right

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#374889 - 01/06/04 11:56 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MarkC Offline


Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 9461
Loc: Not Seattle, but close.
Ah yes, one of our flaws; referring to our privileges as our rights, and to the rights of others as entitlements.
But seriously, I don't know about that.

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#374890 - 01/07/04 12:34 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
47HO Offline


Registered: 11/18/02
Posts: 379
Loc: Alabama
I never said that hunting/fishing was a right. I said that gun ownership is a right, as mentioned in the Constitution.

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#374891 - 01/07/04 12:45 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MarkC Offline


Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 9461
Loc: Not Seattle, but close.
Well, actually, the "right" stated was the right to bear ARMS, it doesn't specifically say GUNS.
So, I guess you could take it as far as you want and say we're allowed to bear SAM's, TOW missiles, M-60's, chemical weapons, etc.

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#374892 - 01/07/04 01:00 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by MarkC:
Well, actually, the "right" stated was the right to bear ARMS, it doesn't specifically say GUNS.
So, I guess you could take it as far as you want and say we're allowed to bear SAM's, TOW missiles, M-60's, chemical weapons, etc.

I hope you're joking.

The framers were quite clear about exactly what they meant in writing the constitution and the bill of rights. Anyone who claims the term "arms", or the intent of the 2nd amendment is ambiguous, is joking, misleading the public, or utterly ignorant of history.

The Federalist Papers make this quite clear (especially #29), as do other documents they wrote at the time. Nobody familiar with these works could seriously question the meaning and intent of the 2nd amendment.

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#374893 - 01/07/04 01:06 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by MillerMan:
And the same goes for guns too, even the NRA which claims that it is a right, fails and supports gun control, that effectively makes it a priviledge, not a right

When the NRA claims it is a right, they are consistent with constitutional scholars, numerous supreme court decisions, and with anyone familiar with the historical documents.

It is utterly fallacious to suggest that the fact that it can be regulated, means it's a not a right. Every right has regulation and control to prevent abuse. The fact that is illegal to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, or to publish libel, does not make free speech a privilege.

The difference between a right and a privilege is the nature of how it is regulated. A privilege can be revoked for any reason, or for no reason. Regulation of a right must pass a much higher bar of muster. Rights can only be regulated when the regulation establishes a compelling state interest in mitigating abuse while not significantly impairing anyone in its reasonable and lawful exercise.

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#374894 - 01/07/04 02:00 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MarkC Offline


Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 9461
Loc: Not Seattle, but close.
quote:
Originally posted by MRC01:
quote:
Originally posted by MarkC:
Well, actually, the "right" stated was the right to bear ARMS, it doesn't specifically say GUNS.
So, I guess you could take it as far as you want and say we're allowed to bear SAM's, TOW missiles, M-60's, chemical weapons, etc.

I hope you're joking.

The framers were quite clear about exactly what they meant in writing the constitution and the bill of rights. Anyone who claims the term "arms", or the intent of the 2nd amendment is ambiguous, is joking, misleading the public, or utterly ignorant of history.

The Federalist Papers make this quite clear (especially #29), as do other documents they wrote at the time. Nobody familiar with these works could seriously question the meaning and intent of the 2nd amendment.

Oh man....now I suppose I have to get rid of my anti-aircraft battery. And it was so handy in repelling those pesky black helicopters.

Seriously, what's your interpretation of the Second Amendment, and how much regulation and what type did Hamilton have in mind?
Before you get you hackles up, I'm not being a smartass(right now, at least), I'd just like your thoughts and reasoning.

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#374895 - 01/07/04 03:18 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by MarkC:
Seriously, what's your interpretation of the Second Amendment, and how much regulation and what type did Hamilton have in mind?
Before you get you hackles up, I'm not being a smartass(right now, at least), I'd just like your thoughts and reasoning.

It says "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Here, PEOPLE means you, me and almost every other citizen of the USA, just like it does in every other amendment in the Bill of Rights.

It says, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state..." Here, MILITIA basically means every male citizen. This includes you and me. There can be no argument over this, as the term is defined in Title 10 Section 311 of federal law. I quote:

The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age... who are, or have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States.

Key points:

The 2nd amendment is an individual right to keep and bear arms which applies to the people -- e.g. every lawful citizen of the USA.

The militia is not a bunch of wackos in Montana marching around with guns (like the lefties would have us believe), but in fact it is all of us including you and me.

It pertains to "arms" which means firearms.

The distinguishing point of firepower is taken to be whatever is carried by the common soldier. This is because one of the purposes of the 2nd amendment, as described in Federalist #29 (note: not by far the only purpose), is to increase military readiness.

This was reinforced by the supreme court in the famous Miller case, in which the Supreme Court ruled that the 2nd amendment is indeed an individual right to keep and bear arms, but denied Miller's right to own a sawed off shotgun because such a weapon had no reasonable military purpose.

How shall this right be appropriate regulated? Regulations should pass the same muster that would be applied to any other right guaranteed in the Constitution. That is, any regulation must establish a compelling improvement in public safety without impairing the lawful exercise of the right in question.

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#374896 - 01/07/04 03:54 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13581
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by MillerMan:
"You see, that's where you are confused. All the things you mentioned that we don't seem to mind registering are priviledges, gun ownership is a right.

I assume it bothers you to register to vote????

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#374897 - 01/07/04 08:39 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Bob Woods Offline


Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1342
Loc: North of Dallas Texas
Also think about this, The NRA has the largest data base of gun owners, even larger than the Governments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where did you get this? I've been a member of the NRA for 20 years, and not once has the NRA asked me for this info.

Who else but gun owners would join?

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#374898 - 01/07/04 09:07 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MillerMan Offline


Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Minn/Wis
?? Al I didn't say that ????????????? [Roll Eyes]

LOL , 47HO did

[ January 08, 2004, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: MillerMan ]

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#374899 - 01/07/04 04:44 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13581
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by MillerMan:
?? Al I didn't say that ????????????? [Roll Eyes]

LOL , 47HO did

Hahahahaha..my bad [Big Grin] O.K. Then 47HO :"I assume it bothers you to register to vote???? " [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

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#374900 - 01/08/04 08:48 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
47HO Offline


Registered: 11/18/02
Posts: 379
Loc: Alabama
Al, you assume wrong.

Bob, anyone can join.

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#374901 - 01/07/04 09:03 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
JohnnyO Offline


Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
[Cool] As I've said before, it would be nice if NO ONE had guns but that horse left the barn here 200 years ago and it isn't going back in. I'm just your basic average white guy but if I'm in a Chinese restaurant and some nutcase woke up that day and decides it's his day to kill Chinese people and comes in firing, I want more than a snowball's chance. Don't laugh, that happened here two years ago. Until then I was never much interested in guns, after that I got a permit, lessons, and I practice. [Smile]

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#374902 - 01/07/04 11:06 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Bob Woods Offline


Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1342
Loc: North of Dallas Texas
Bob, anyone can join.47HO

True!! but do they, I would bet you that 99% of the NRA members are gunowners. Then there are guys like me that own guns but don't join.

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#374903 - 01/07/04 11:22 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Chris B. Offline


Registered: 03/16/03
Posts: 2900
Loc: Colorado
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Woods:
Bob, anyone can join.47HO

True!! but do they, I would bet you that 99% of the NRA members are gunowners. Then there are guys like me that own guns but don't join.

Bob you just said you have been a NRA member for 20 years?

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#374904 - 01/07/04 11:25 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Chris B. Offline


Registered: 03/16/03
Posts: 2900
Loc: Colorado
quote:
Originally posted by 47HO:
Al, you assume wrong.

Bob, anyone can join.

And should join if they want to help keep their freedom. NRA is about guns but also stands for all other freedoms. Americans who value freedom even if they don't own a gun should join and make a stand.

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#374905 - 01/07/04 11:39 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Brian Barnhart Offline


Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 620
Loc: Ohio
quote:
This is a scary read! I'm an NRA member and I really wish more gun owners would join up to help us keep the 2nd in tact.
NRA keeping the 2nd intact, Ha! This issue is serious and I could find nothing relating to it at their website during my brief visit there this morning. I let my NRA membership expire in 1999 after more than 15 years of membership.

The NRA has slid a long way. In the last 15 or so years they have compromised our rights and have helped give birth to background checks, gun bans, magazine bans, and ammunition bans. Never mind that none of those compromises have been linked to reduced crime.

One of their most recent efforts in Ohio is yielding a CCW permit that requires training, fingerprints, and a fee. Before the NRA got involved, anyone charged with CCW in Ohio had the opportunity to plead their case if the situation was such that a prudent man would go armed.

It's obvious the NRA of today considers it a privilege to own certain guns and bear them in certain manners. It's interesting to look at American Rifleman magazines prior to the late eighties. Back then NRA leadership new how to take a stand, and understood where compromise would lead.

[ January 08, 2004, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Brian Barnhart ]

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#374906 - 01/08/04 12:25 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
One of their most recent efforts in Ohio is yielding a CCW permit that requires training, fingerprints, and a fee. Before the NRA got involved, anyone charged with CCW in Ohio had the opportunity to plead their case if the situation was such that a prudent man would go armed.

What sane person would rather be criminally charged merely for having a weapon in possession and have to defend himself in court, putting his life, family, job and property at risk, than take a background check and training course and have a CCW permit?

CCW laws are A GOOD THING and I fully support the NRA in pushing these laws. They are good for gun owners, good for public safety, and represent a reasonable and prudent way of guaranteeing our 2nd amendment rights.

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#374907 - 01/08/04 12:57 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
tweeker43 Offline


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 1253
Loc: michigan
i believe the nra started out as more of a hunter / sportsmans group, that was more on the educational aspect of things, and actually supported many gun control measures at the time.

man, that's one long sentence.

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#374908 - 01/08/04 01:27 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by tweeker43:
i believe the nra started out as more of a hunter / sportsmans group, that was more on the educational aspect of things, and actually supported many gun control measures at the time.

Yup and as an NRA member I have no problem with that. Laws and regulations that increase public safety without infringing upon gun owners serve only to strengthen our 2nd amendment rights.

Some measures, such as CCW laws, do exactly that. But other measures, such as waiting periods, gun ban lists, discretionary issue of CCW permits, etc. serve only to impair gun owners with no public benefit, thus should not be supported. The NRA does not support these kind of laws for good reason.

In short, "gun control" has gotten a bad rep because it is more often used to destroy the 2nd amendment than to regulate it. But "gun control" laws are neither good nor bad in and of themselves. It depends on the particular laws in question.

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#374909 - 01/08/04 01:52 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Brian Barnhart Offline


Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 620
Loc: Ohio
quote:
What sane person would rather be criminally charged merely for having a weapon in possession and have to defend himself in court, putting his life, family, job and property at risk, than take a background check and training course and have a CCW permit?

Perhaps a principled person unwilling to give up a protected right, and exchange it for a extremely limited and non-protected, non-guaranteed privilege.

Besides, it includes fingerprinting and records, not just background check.

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#374910 - 01/08/04 03:21 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13581
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
[QUOTE] Besides, it includes fingerprinting and records, not just background check.

I am a gun rights proponent. I fail to understand why providing information to the government, like fingerprinting or identification is a problem. The government is protecting the rights/safety of other citizens by requiring this information(It states in the U.S.Constitution that a pupose [of the Constitution] is to promote the general welfare .

And don't forget in the early days of the Republic a good bit of the defense was Militia. The Militia was organized and had rosters etc. So really today a "Militia" would be regular Army. And I am aware of the definition of the word "Militia" above-but as a practical matter the "Malitia" was organized. With todays technology just thnk about what requirements are required for I.D. and otherwise in the Armed Forces.

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#374911 - 01/08/04 04:08 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
wulimaster Offline


Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 1011
Loc: Montgomery, Alabama
quote:
Originally posted by MRC01:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
[qb]
CCW laws are A GOOD THING and I fully support the NRA in pushing these laws. They are good for gun owners, good for public safety, and represent a reasonable and prudent way of guaranteeing our 2nd amendment rights.

I would prefer that all states adopt the Vermont laws with respect to CCW. They only restrict felons from carrying. For all others you don't need any permit because carrying conceled is not a crime.

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#374912 - 01/08/04 04:22 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Brian Barnhart Offline


Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 620
Loc: Ohio
Amen. And unlike other states, the Vermont "style" is essentially constutional.

[ January 08, 2004, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Brian Barnhart ]

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#374913 - 01/08/04 04:42 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
ex_MGB Offline


Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 597
Loc: Salisbury, MD
Well, actually, the "right" stated was the right to bear ARMS, it doesn't specifically say GUNS.

There a growing sentiment within legal circles that "ARMS" as used by the founding fathers indeed meant arms.

It will be a sad day in America when all able bodied males subject to duty in defense of the nation have their arms amputated by court order.

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#374914 - 01/08/04 04:42 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by wulimaster:
I would prefer that all states adopt the Vermont laws with respect to CCW. They only restrict felons from carrying. For all others you don't need any permit because carrying conceled is not a crime.

I agree the Vermont laws are the ideal. But many other states are far from ideal and in those states CCW laws are a big step in the right direction.

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#374915 - 01/08/04 04:49 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Dan4510 Offline


Registered: 05/19/03
Posts: 2363
Loc: Texas
quote:
Originally posted by Al:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
[QUOTE] Besides, it includes fingerprinting and records, not just background check.

I am a gun rights proponent. I fail to understand why providing information to the government, like fingerprinting or identification is a problem. The government is protecting the rights/safety of other citizens by requiring this information(It states in the U.S.Constitution that a pupose [of the Constitution] is to promote the general welfare.
Al,

You are reading the Consitution the way its supposed to be read, not by current interpretation. Now its give away welfare to buy votes as the guiding principle. And giving the government information is dangerous due to the fact that 4th amendemnt freedoms are being decimated and before long one has no privacy rights at all.

when a tyrant takes over, the first thing that goes is gun rights. An unarmed populace is a manageable populace.

Dan

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#374916 - 01/08/04 05:21 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Brian Barnhart Offline


Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 620
Loc: Ohio
It’s sad to see so many people fall into the “reasonable compromise” and “public safety” traps.

Background checks were put in place to deter criminals. Where’s the data showing that criminals who wish to posses firearms are significantly deterred by background checks and find it difficult to obtain guns and commit crimes with guns? No data? Well, who even believes it?

CCW permits are supposed to increase public safety. How? Is someone intent on committing a crime with a gun going to be deterred because they don’t have a permit to carry a gun concealed? Who believes that?

Currently, many States still recognize the people’s right to bear arms openly or concealed when in their house or on their own property. Why should people be forced to give up that right and exchange it for a paid, deniable, revocable, limited privilege when they get into their car or walk away from their house? Very few people in our country shoot their neighbors. Is the average gun owner considered safe around the house, but a great threat to the public when not at home?

As far as the general welfare argument, I suggest it only applies to rights not specifically covered in the document. Everyone who thinks you can use the general welfare clause to limit free speech stand up.

Quite simply, CCW permits and background checks are unreasonable because the proposed reasons to have them fail a logical common sense test.

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#374917 - 01/08/04 05:47 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13581
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
It’s sad to see so many people fall into the “reasonable compromise” and “public safety” traps.

Background checks were put in place to deter criminals. Where’s the data showing that criminals who wish to posses firearms are significantly deterred by background checks and find it difficult to obtain guns and commit crimes with guns? No data? Well, who even believes it?

CCW permits are supposed to increase public safety. How? Is someone intent on committing a crime with a gun going to be deterred because they don’t have a permit to carry a gun concealed? Who believes that?

Currently, many States still recognize the people’s right to bear arms openly or concealed when in their house or on their own property. Why should people be forced to give up that right and exchange it for a paid, deniable, revocable, limited privilege when they get into their car or walk away from their house? Very few people in our country shoot their neighbors. Is the average gun owner considered safe around the house, but a great threat to the public when not at home?

As far as the general welfare argument, I suggest it only applies to rights not specifically covered in the document. Everyone who thinks you can use the general welfare clause to limit free speech stand up.

Quite simply, CCW permits and background checks are unreasonable because the proposed reasons to have them fail a logical common sense test.

Well-its obvious that we fail to convince each other here. [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] .

But I feel very uncomfortable with folks not trained in the proper use and safety of a weapon with CCW. When I go to a gun store I invarably see a prospective gun buyer take the gun from the clerk and in the process or taking it will position it to look at it. Unknowingly (surprise-surprise) the business end of the weapon will be pointed at the clerk. It happens every time. I really don't want to be in a McDonalds with the likes of those chuckleheads. The thought of that new gun owner with a cocked and locked 1911 scares the daylights out of me.

And this " Is the average gun owner considered safe around the house, but a great threat to the public when not at home?"..A home defense weapon is many more times likely to kill a family member by accident or otherwise. Again I'm not sure I trust that person next to me in McDonalds. ... Guess I can stop going to McDonalds [Smile] [Smile]

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#374918 - 01/08/04 06:37 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
tweeker43 Offline


Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 1253
Loc: michigan
well, i agree with al 100%. education and training make weapons many times safer. ccw is one way to achieve this.

the problem with any scheme, such as ccw, is obviously with the people who bypass the process.

the other thing about ccw (at least in michigan) is that if you are divorced, your spouse can get a "restraining order" fairly easily and you lose your ccw for the duration. there is a lot of stuff that goes along with ccw. if you get pulled over and don't declare you're screwed, and if you do declare you may make the officer "nervous."

of course, i don't own a weapon, because of its inevitable use, most likely while driving to work.

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#374919 - 01/08/04 06:39 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
It’s sad to see so many people fall into the “reasonable compromise” and “public safety” traps.

Background checks were put in place to deter criminals. Where’s the data showing that criminals who wish to posses firearms are significantly deterred by background checks and find it difficult to obtain guns and commit crimes with guns? No data? Well, who even believes it?

CCW permits are supposed to increase public safety. How? Is someone intent on committing a crime with a gun going to be deterred because they don’t have a permit to carry a gun concealed? Who believes that?

Currently, many States still recognize the people’s right to bear arms openly or concealed when in their house or on their own property. Why should people be forced to give up that right and exchange it for a paid, deniable, revocable, limited privilege when they get into their car or walk away from their house? Very few people in our country shoot their neighbors. Is the average gun owner considered safe around the house, but a great threat to the public when not at home?

As far as the general welfare argument, I suggest it only applies to rights not specifically covered in the document. Everyone who thinks you can use the general welfare clause to limit free speech stand up.

Quite simply, CCW permits and background checks are unreasonable because the proposed reasons to have them fail a logical common sense test.

First, while "safety" is often misused to abridge gun rights, there are some legitimate safety concerns. I've seen people at the training classes who have no prior experience and their poor gun handling skills are a threat to others. Also at these classes are people with fine gun handling skills but who don't understand the lawful use of deadly force. They too are a threat to others.

It is a well documented fact that CCW permits increase public safety by reducing crime. Of course it's not the permits that reduce crime, but rather that the CCW permit process increases the number of people who are armed, proficient with firearms, and understand the lawful use of deadly force.

You compare to free speech and that is a great example. Libel, slander, fighting words, and obscenity are illegal, in the name of the general welfare. Yet nobody claims this impairs free speech.

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#374920 - 01/08/04 08:00 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26878
Loc: a prison island
quote:
Originally posted by msparks:
quote:
Originally posted by Chris B.:
We were just talking at the gun shop the other day about if the government tried to go door to door taking away the peoples guns it would cause a civil war and a lot of people would die. Americans are different then any body else, you just don't walk up to the front door and say "hand em' over" if you want to keep you head and the govenment knows this.

Um the left is much smarter than that. Do you believe that the other countries just handed their guns over?? No, the first instilled a very very liberal government, in schools and other aspects of human development(Social Programs) Therefore about 90% of the population is so brainwashed in to thinking from the left that they will gladly give up thier rights to self protection,(becuase the government will do it for us).

If you look to Australia, yes they had a lot of gun owners too. But did you see people out killing each other before they handed in their guns?? Most Americans are law abiding citizens, when the time is right(about 80% liberal) they will just pass a law and all but a few will gladly turn in their guns. This will happen even fast when the legalize illegal immigration.

I feel this is truley the downslide of the USA. 200+ years is a good record, but we will have a demise "FROM THE EMEMY WITHIN"

Problem with Australia was that it was our CONSERVATIVE party that brought in the new regime as far as gun control goes.

As to conspiracies, they DID have legislation waiting in the wings for a tragedy that they could pin it to. Not necessarily a conspiracy, but manipulation of the public certainly.

Still, gun related crime is up, security guards are being robbed for their sidearms every week, there is 5 month old gang war through the suburbs of Sydney.

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#374921 - 01/08/04 08:10 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Brian Barnhart Offline


Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 620
Loc: Ohio
quote:
A home defense weapon is many more times likely to kill a family member by accident or otherwise.
What exactly do you mean? A defense gun is more likely to kill a family member than an intruder when an intruder is in the house? I doubt there’s much data to support that.

Perhaps you mean a defense gun is more likely to kill a family member than an intruder when an intruder is not in the house. That I’ll buy. Unfortunately, accidents will happen. And in a few cases, people kill other family members intentionally. But who thinks background checks and CCW permits will stop that?

quote:
Again I'm not sure I trust that person next to me in McDonalds. ... Guess I can stop going to McDonalds
You trust him not to run over you in the parking lot. What makes you think he’s more likely to gun you down in the store?

quote:
It is a well documented fact that CCW permits increase public safety by reducing crime. Of course it's not the permits that reduce crime, but rather that the CCW permit process increases the number of people who are armed, proficient with firearms, and understand the lawful use of deadly force.
I believe it would be more accurate to say that crime is reduced when people can carry. Any significant crime reduction results from the presence and/or use of guns. Or from the deterrent effect of people possibly having and using guns against wrong doers. The permit and the permit process itself has very little to do with reducing crime. Training, while beneficial, can only reduce the number of accidents and misuses.

quote:
You compare to free speech and that is a great example. Libel, slander, fighting words, and obscenity are illegal, in the name of the general welfare. Yet nobody claims this impairs free speech.
Laws against murder and assault doesn’t impair the 2nd amendment either. But CCW permits do.

quote:
I've seen people at the training classes who have no prior experience and their poor gun handling skills are a threat to others. Also at these classes are people with fine gun handling skills but who don't understand the lawful use of deadly force. They too are a threat to others.
Prossibly true. But are those perceived threats and possible dangers greater than the actual violence and real dangers touching people’s lives every day? Seems to me there's no good reason to give up a protected right in exchange for a conditional privilege that might offer an alleged increase in safety that a few hours of training may or may not provide.

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#374922 - 01/08/04 08:19 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Bob Woods Offline


Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1342
Loc: North of Dallas Texas
"Bob you just said you have been a NRA member for 20 years?" ChrisB

"No I didn't but I did make a bad by not crediting the source of that statement. I have never been an NRA member but 47HO has." Bob Woods

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#374923 - 01/08/04 08:36 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
Seems to me there's no good reason to give up a protected right in exchange for a conditional privilege

If that were the choice, I agree! But that is not the choice we face.

In states prior to passage of CCW laws, nobody could legally carry a weapon. The 2nd amendment was completely and utterly abrogated.

Seems to me there's no good reason to prefer total abrogation of a protected right, to reasonable checks on its lawful recognition and exercise.

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#374924 - 01/08/04 05:49 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Brian Barnhart Offline


Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 620
Loc: Ohio
States with CCW permits still have abrogation of the right to carry concealed. You just have a limited, revocable privilege in lieu of the right to carry concealed. If it’s a right, permission is not required. With the CCW permit system, only certain people who agree to certain terms and conditions are given permission to carry concealed in certain places. Proponents of CCW permits are saying that carrying concealed can be considered a limited privilege with permission. And those CCW permit holders are agreeing to that in writing.

History will likely prove the CCW permit a great tool for gun control proponent. With it he has established an important precedent and instilled in minds of congressmen, gun owners, and others, the idea that gun rights really only need to exist as limited privileges to those with permission.

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#374925 - 01/08/04 07:31 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
States with CCW permits still have abrogation of the right to carry concealed. You just have a limited, revocable privilege in lieu of the right to carry concealed. If it’s a right, permission is not required. With the CCW permit system, only certain people who agree to certain terms and conditions are given permission to carry concealed in certain places. Proponents of CCW permits are saying that carrying concealed can be considered a limited privilege with permission. And those CCW permit holders are agreeing to that in writing.

History will likely prove the CCW permit a great tool for gun control proponent. With it he has established an important precedent and instilled in minds of congressmen, gun owners, and others, the idea that gun rights really only need to exist as limited privileges to those with permission.

Nothing in the CCW paperwork requires the applicant to forgo his 2nd amendment rights. Those rights still exist -- even if not recognized by the state he lives in.

You're misrepresenting CCW laws. "certain people" means anyone and everyone. "certain conditions" means demonstrating a rudimentary knowledge of guns and gun laws and not being a criminal. "permission" cannot be denied to anyone who meets the basic conditions.

It is not limited, it is not exclusive, granting and revocation are not discretionary.

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#374926 - 01/08/04 09:35 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Brian Barnhart Offline


Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 620
Loc: Ohio
quote:
You're misrepresenting CCW laws. "certain people" means anyone and everyone. "certain conditions" means demonstrating a rudimentary knowledge of guns and gun laws and not being a criminal. "permission" cannot be denied to anyone who meets the basic conditions.

It is not limited

Quite the contrary, I believe I’m giving an accurate view of CCW permits and their restrictions. And my use of “certain people”, "certain conditions", and "limited" are all accurate.

Some people are unwilling to pay, unwilling to be fingerprinted, unwilling to attend training classes, or have been convicted of certain crimes (violent or non-violent), or may be considered by someone important to be mentally questionable, or may be involved in some other situation that disqualify them. Granted, most citizens may not fall into these categories, but many do. Therefore my use of “certain people” better represents the truth than the use of “anyone and everyone". And the above listed "certain conditions" go well beyond not being a criminal and understanding rudimentary gun handling and gun laws as suggested.

Calling a CCW permit "limited" is also accurate. A CCW permit is no good for carrying concealed in your car, on your boat, on any public state owned or leased property, many other public places, the properties of most publicly owned companies, or anywhere else the private property “owner” says you can’t. Perhaps it might be easier to list where a CCW permit allows one to carry a concealed gun.

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#374927 - 01/08/04 09:50 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
A CCW permit is no good for carrying concealed in your car, on your boat, on any public state owned or leased property, many other public places, the properties of most publicly owned companies, or anywhere else the private property “owner” says you can’t. Perhaps it might be easier to list where a CCW permit allows one to carry a concealed gun.

Once again you are incorrect. The law varies by state, but in most states a CCW does allow you to carry in any vehicle (car, boat, motorcycle, etc.), on most public transportation (buses, trains, ferrys, taxis, etc.) and on most public and private property.

Where you can't carry: courthouses, bars, and schools (though you can usually enter the parking lot to pick up & drop off your kid while armed).

It's true a private property owner can exclude CCWs. But he can exclude people from exercising their 1st amendment rights on his property too.

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#374928 - 01/08/04 10:26 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Brian Barnhart Offline


Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 620
Loc: Ohio
quote:
Once again you are incorrect. The law varies by state, but in most states a CCW does allow you to carry in any vehicle (car, boat, motorcycle, etc.), on most public transportation (buses, trains, ferrys, taxis, etc.) and on most public and private property.

Where you can't carry: courthouses, bars, and schools (though you can usually enter the parking lot to pick up & drop off your kid while armed).

I believe I've accurately conveyed Ohio's new CCW law, which is patterned after the laws in several other states. However, it looks like it's tough to make broad statements about CCW Permits since the specifics appear to vary significantly from state to state. In the case of Ohio, and probably other states, a CCW Permit is just as limited and restricted as I stated.

For those living in states with different CCW permit laws, I apologize for misrepresenting your state's laws.

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#374929 - 01/08/04 10:57 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
quote:
Once again you are incorrect. The law varies by state, but in most states a CCW does allow you to carry in any vehicle (car, boat, motorcycle, etc.), on most public transportation (buses, trains, ferrys, taxis, etc.) and on most public and private property.

Where you can't carry: courthouses, bars, and schools (though you can usually enter the parking lot to pick up & drop off your kid while armed).

I believe I've accurately conveyed Ohio's new CCW law, which is patterned after the laws in several other states. However, it looks like it's tough to make broad statements about CCW Permits since the specifics appear to vary significantly from state to state. In the case of Ohio, and probably other states, a CCW Permit is just as limited and restricted as I stated.

For those living in states with different CCW permit laws, I apologize for misrepresenting your state's laws.

Ohio's new CCW law hasn't passed yet, and when it does it won't take effect for several months. So it's a little premature to pass judgement. But whatever they do eventually get, it's better than what they had before, which was nothing (e.g. no recognized right to carry whatsoever), and it may be expanded and improved in the future, as it has been in other states, where they have expanded the law by removing restrictions that proved to be onerous to CCW holders.

Even Vermont, whose gun laws you seem to like, has more restrictions than most CCW states. No guns allowed on any state institution or grounds (except parks). No loaded guns while traveling in your car.

Here is a very useful web site for learning about the gun laws of various states:
http://www.packing.org

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#374930 - 01/08/04 11:49 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Brian Barnhart Offline


Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 620
Loc: Ohio
quote:
Ohio's new CCW law hasn't passed yet
Passed both House and Senate weeks ago. The Governor signed it yesterday.

http://www.state.oh.us/gov/releases/010804ccwsign.htm

[ January 09, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Brian Barnhart ]

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#374931 - 01/09/04 02:56 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
quote:
Ohio's new CCW law hasn't passed yet
The Governor signed it yesterday.

I see my information is out of date -- LOL! [Cheers!]

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#374932 - 01/09/04 06:57 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
ekrampitzjr Offline


Registered: 03/23/03
Posts: 788
Loc: Hopewell, Virginia, USA
Been following these posts with interest.

Never fall into the trap of trying to read too much into the US Supreme Court's refusal to hear a case. I've studied constitutional issues and Supreme Court decisions for some years, and here's what most scholars on these issues take pains to point out: The Supreme Court will avoid deciding basic constitutional issues whenever it can. That's as opposed to deciding whether aspects of new legislation meet constitutional requirements, etc.

The body will decide a basic issue such as this case only when it is forced to, such as when federal appellate courts in different parts of the country issue conflicting rulings on such an issue, which does not happen often. Actually, this Court as currently made up seems to have a libertarian streak, which could be a good thing if it decides to take on the issue of whether the 2d Amendment means what it seems to say.

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#374933 - 01/09/04 09:23 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
labman Offline


Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 8711
Loc: Nothern USA
A long time ago on the freedom of speech issue, Justice Douglas said that laws can restrict it, unless the Supreme Court objects.

Remember this in November, and vote for a president and senators that support the constitution. Guns, speech, and freedom to practice Christianity are all under attack.

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#374934 - 01/09/04 10:58 PM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 13581
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by ekrampitzjr:
Been following these posts with interest.

Never fall into the trap of trying to read too much into the US Supreme Court's refusal to hear a case. I've studied constitutional issues and Supreme Court decisions for some years, and here's what most scholars on these issues take pains to point out: The Supreme Court will avoid deciding basic constitutional issues whenever it can. That's as opposed to deciding whether aspects of new legislation meet constitutional requirements, etc.

The body will decide a basic issue such as this case only when it is forced to, such as when federal appellate courts in different parts of the country issue conflicting rulings on such an issue, which does not happen often. Actually, this Court as currently made up seems to have a libertarian streak, which could be a good thing if it decides to take on the issue of whether the 2d Amendment means what it seems to say.

Its great to hear from someone who appears to have a well grounded knowledge in the Constitution. I keep a copy nearby and and refer to it off and on. But information that you mentioned is certainly interesting. It is frustrating that some decisions made are probably not in accordance with the origional intent-but rather based on political decisions.

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#374935 - 01/10/04 12:40 AM Re: Goodbye 2nd Amendment
MRC01 Offline


Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 606
Loc: 98245
It's worth mentioning that the Supreme Court does have the power to pick up any case it wants without waiting for that case to be appealed up to its own level -- though it rarely exercises this power.

If the supremes don't pick up a case, then stare decisis holds, meaning their past decisions stand as law. And much to the chagrin of the lefties, the Supremes have in several key decisions declared the 2nd amendment to be an individual right. This will stand until they declare otherwise.

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