Ecore Experience

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Yeah..i'm in sales but after 24 years of filter experience there are a few things I know.

http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/83-1R2.pdf

My two questions at the end of my post above were:
A question...how much pressure can the oil pump put out on Red Bowties hotrod engine? And how much with the regulating valve blocked?
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The first one was about the pressure the oil pump could put out. The second about the "regulating valve". It was a continuation on the oil pump question.

As I am brainwashed by the filter manufacturers--the tech bulletin I have referred people to specifically discusses the pressure "regulating valve".

It is service bulletin 83-1R2...first written in 1983. That's why it starts with 83..( R2 means revision 2)

So for 23 years the Filter Manufacturers Council, which includes AC Delco btw, must have the wrong terminology if the valve is called pressure relief valve instead of pressure regulating valve.

That is the information I have been using as the discussion point.

Still no answers though when the regulating/relief valve gets blocked in the closed position--how much pressure can an oil pump put out under that circumstance?
 
There are other center tube designs out there. A lot of glass filled nylon core design originated in Europe. Mercedes and BMW had/have them on their cartridge type filters. They aren't as cost conscience as US buyers and most filters are changed by the dealers. Very little DIY over there. I think ecore is the first nylon core in a spin-on. At least for a gas application. CAT has a bunch in their diesels. Of course CAT makes their own filters.

It'll be interesting to see if the high cost of oil drives some plastic applications back to steel. I doubt it but it sure could happen.
 
Hey FG, it's ok to be a sales guy and a filter guy too. Take a deep breath. You'll be fine.

Most oil pumps are positive displacement pumps which means if the shaft turns oil will be pumped. (Disregarding -40 conditions.) IF the downstream is blocked the pressure will increase as will the shear stress in the pump shaft. One of two things will happen, either the pump will by-pass internally, which is usually the case, or their will be a mechanical failure such as the drive shaft twisting off (unlikely but could happen).

How high will the pressure go?? If everything holds together, really high. Hundreds of psi. and that's where the danger comes into play. A spin-on filter is the weakest link. Beef it up and something else becomes the wekaest link. Even so called race filters will burst at 500psi and from a hydraulics standpoint still low. But a die cast aluminum housing might tolerate 1500psi. That may twist off a shaft.

An engine oiling system is just a low pressure hydraulic system.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:
Yeah..i'm in sales but after 24 years of filter experience there are a few things I know.

http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/83-1R2.pdf
As I am brainwashed by the filter manufacturers--the tech bulletin I have referred people to specifically discusses the pressure "regulating valve".

It is service bulletin 83-1R2...first written in 1983. That's why it starts with 83..( R2 means revision 2)

So for 23 years the Filter Manufacturers Council, which includes AC Delco btw, must have the wrong terminology if the valve is called pressure relief valve instead of pressure regulating valve.


Thanks for proving my point. You referencing The Filter Manufacturers Council demonstrates that you base all your knowledge on what your employers have fed you for decades now. I'll agree it's the more accurate term to use, but virtually no one with experience in building engines uses that term.

But let's get back to the more important part of the discussion...the failure of this Ecore. I'm simply not buying your guess that it was a stuck "pressure relief valve". Way to uncommon from my experience building and racing these engines.
 
Well, there are some limitations to your terminal pressure even with the relief valve stuck. Oil pumps and engine "consumption" (ability to uptake) aren't matched in most applications. There's a point that you won't get progressive pressure even with progressive flow.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Pantera 74L:
One of two things will happen, either the pump will by-pass internally, which is usually the case, or their will be a mechanical failure such as the drive shaft twisting off (unlikely but could happen).

It's the intermediate shaft connection points that usually fail in this design.
 
I didn't mean to imply the pressure increase was linear or directly proportional to pump output. FG had asked what is the pump max pressure output. Or that's what I thought he wanted to know. What I wrote was for a free standing pump with the outlet blocked mounted on an appropriate test rigg. In the real word things get so complicated so fast that's it's nearly impossible to answer his question.

Thanks goodness the engine design folks did a bunch of this work years ago.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:
Yeah..i'm in sales but after 24 years of filter experience there are a few things I know.

http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/83-1R2.pdf
As I am brainwashed by the filter manufacturers--the tech bulletin I have referred people to specifically discusses the pressure "regulating valve".

It is service bulletin 83-1R2...first written in 1983. That's why it starts with 83..( R2 means revision 2)

So for 23 years the Filter Manufacturers Council, which includes AC Delco btw, must have the wrong terminology if the valve is called pressure relief valve instead of pressure regulating valve.


Thanks for proving my point. You referencing The Filter Manufacturers Council demonstrates that you base all your knowledge on what your employers have fed you for decades now. I'll agree it's the more accurate term to use, but virtually no one with experience in building engines uses that term.

But let's get back to the more important part of the discussion...the failure of this Ecore. I'm simply not buying your guess that it was a stuck "pressure relief valve". Way to uncommon from my experience building and racing these engines.


Lets do get back to the important part..

You don't have to buy my "guess".

You do then need to explain how the filter collapsed--with your experience--if my "guess" isn't correct.

Just because you, in your experience, haven't seen to many collapsed filters (if any), with 500,000 filters or more on average built per day by Champ..and some returned over the course of the 18 years I was there---Champ may have some idea why filters collapse--as do Wix, Fram, AC, Purolator, Baldwin, Donaldson, Fleetguard, and a few others...after all it was their combined experience which went into writing those service bulletins.

So then..please do explain why the filter collapsed. I'd love to hear it.

And maybe you can explain further what this meant from the Champ service report as posted by Red Bowtie back on page 4:
Note: There was nothing found which indicated the filter was defective. The filter has been in service on an engine that malfunctioned.


I explained what I thought caused the problem from within the engine. Excess pressure caused by the pressure "relief" valve.

And your explaination??
 
The "big 3" GM, Ford and Chrysler have filter specifications. All three have a minumum element collapse pressure ranging from 65 to 75 psid. From a filtration standpoint you never want restriction that high on a lube oil filter. Why? High differential will cause contaminant that was previously trapped to be forced through the filter media and into the oiling system.

The ecore centertube is stronger than the steel tube it replaced primarily because the nylon tube is round and steel tubes are not. Collapse failures are a form of "buckling" failure and they are very difficult to predict. Another type of "buckling failure" is a column with an axial end load. Push on a piece of PVC pipe and it's pretty strong unless it's long enough to not be straight.

Steel cores are either locked (like a rolled seam) or welded. Locked cores are least expensive and therefore usually used for automotive filters. Unfortunaely the locking process usually leaves a very slight flat side. Most all collapse failures occur at this flat side.

If you think about it, a lot of engineering goes into a $5 oil filter. It's really a bargain.
 
I think some have a "spiral" formed metal tube. This, I think, would reduce the "out of roundness" inherent to straight seam forming. I would think that any collapse would attempt to elongate the tube (geting visions of whacking a poppin fresh Pillsbury dough container-sorta)
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The GM in block valve that protects the oil filter element is set to open at 10 to 20 psid. (I don't remember the exact number.) When this valve fails/sticks shut/is blocked the filter element no longer is protected and an element collapse may occur.

The pressure regulating valve located near or in the oil pump is set at 40 to 60 psi. If this valve fails the filter may suffer a burst failure such as gasket extrusion out of the groove or shell rolled seam failure.

It's interesting to note that GM is starting in 2007 to phase out the valve in the block and put it in the filter. Check out a new PF48. I'm sure there will be lots of talk about this but the truth is it's because it saves them about a buck per engine.
 
You are on the mark Gary. Spiral tubes are great, but expensive because they are slow to make. Many heavy diesel and hydraulic filters have them.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Pantera 74L:
You are on the mark Gary. Spiral tubes are great, but expensive because they are slow to make. Many heavy diesel and hydraulic filters have them.

Funny you should say that. I just checked before I posted that ..and the filter was indeed for a hydraulic application. HF6510 Fleetguard.
 
After reading everyones comments and suggestions, we have a few more questions.

We see a lot of discussion relative to pressure, but in trying to understand why the Ecore collapsed, what about the pump's output volume? Were we pumping a greater volume of oil at the 50-60psi that caused the failure? Once again, shouldn't the greater open area of the Ecore design have allowed for more flow through it?

The service report talked about differential pressure being too high. With an automotive pressure lubrication system, shouldn't the motor, and not the filter be the larger restriction? The bearings and journal clearances rely on the thin, pressurized oil film to prevent metal to metal contact. Isn't that why older motors typically have lower oil pressure because of the greater bearing clearances, or a lower restriction?

We've done a little research on the web looking for filters with a higher GPM rating thinking that might help our situation. Some of the comments around the spiral wrapped steel core being a more robust design for higher pressure also made sense to us. Don't know for sure what the GPM value is for our pump at 4-5000 rpm, but a lot of filters are rated in the 9-11 GPM range. Some racing filters were in the 28-30 GPM range. They appear to be more of a strainer than a filter at that point. That brings up another question. Has anyone used a System One filter (strainer) with any success? They appear to have a plastic cage also, but not much for filter media, but they probably don't collapse either.

On the BITOG home page, it talks about the purpose being to educate and not to sell. Believe me, we've gained a lot of education here lately.

Got the motor back in the car and fired up. Runs very well. It should, we essentialy put a new rotating assembly in it. After washing and inspecting everything, we decided to start fresh and save the old parts for another project. Everything was salvageable except one rod for sure, maybe two. They all mag'ed OK, just didn't perform all the measurements yet. The crank is going to Moldex to get touched up and should be fine. It wasn't bent and the small crack was taken out with a die grinder.

We're going to go play with it this weekend for Fathers Day, and I get to drive it. Still waiting for the old filter to show up so we can take a look at it.

Thanks again for helping to educate us.
 
G-Man II – Thanks for bringing up that important point. We needed to make a few decisions with the motor. Either we’re going to treat it as a street rod motor, or a racing motor. Here’s our point of reference from where we made our decisions.

Late last year we decided to completely disassemble the motor as we were curious to see how everything was doing. All the things we had monitored up to that point had said it was doing OK, oil, oil filters, valve lash etc. We had a little concern with the roller lifters while watching the valve lash adjustment. No large changes, just a little tweak here and there at the most. Hey! This is Wisconsin, winter was coming and guys need something else to do in the shop besides drinking beer.

The motor was in great shape. Nothing was really worn out, broken, cracked or bent. Things were looking good. The valve guides weren’t worn out or needing replacement, the bearings looked great and the valve springs were within 20lbs of spec. Only the roller lifters were looking a little tired, and we were sort of expecting that. The motor had seen 3 years of service with moderate to heavy abuse using 20W-50 Valvoline and an AC Delco PF1218 oil filter. We were confident we had the right combination for success. We thought it was a great testament to the GM engineers who spec’ed out the motor. We then freshened it up with new rings, springs and bearings, added a new oil pump and roller lifters, buttoned it up and called it good.

From what we’ve learned so far, our fatal mistake was in using the new Ecore design PF1218 oil filter instead of the old design. After having thought it was a counterfeit at first, then chasing that down through GM Investigations to verify it was in fact OE, to talking to AC Delco and having them inform us about how much better the new design was versus the old design and then reading the information on the Champ website about it being stronger and more efficient, we went ahead and used it and promptly destroyed the motor.

So we had to make some decisions. Based on the success we had in the past, we didn’t feel compelled to make a bunch of changes. We decided to keep the bypass blocked and send all of the oil through the filter all of the time, we’re going to continue to use Valvoline 20W-50 oil (p/n VV851 – Racing Only) and we’re going to continue to operate it like we did before – moderate to heavy abuse. The only thing we decided to change was the oil filter. We bought a couple of Wix 51060R filters to try. They have a higher GPM rating and maybe not much for filtering capacity. They have a spiral wound center core and a 500 psi burst rating. They appear to be quite substantial.

We’re sure there’s a few or more of you good folks out there that think we’re insane. We’re probably guilty of being stupid, as the AC guy implied after the fact, for using a street filter on a performance motor and for not going with our gut feel to not believe the hype around the new filter design. In our defense we’ll point to the great job the old design PF1218 did for us in our application and as evidence in our teardown. I’ll mention for the last time, that it was the oil filter that the motor came with when we bought it.

Sorry for the lengthy response, but I was on a roll… 
 
quote:

Originally posted by Red Bowtie:
G-Man II – Thanks for bringing up that important point. We needed to make a few decisions with the motor. Either we’re going to treat it as a street rod motor, or a racing motor. Here’s our point of reference from where we made our decisions.

....

We’re sure there’s a few or more of you good folks out there that think we’re insane.


At least you're doing it with your eyes open and making conscious decisions based on some logic. You choices aren't the ones I would make, but it's not my engine.
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The Wix racing filters should do what you want, it isn't like you're going to run that engine 250,000 miles and need the ultimate in filtration.

It would make sense to install an oil temperature gauge and base your oil viscosity on the temperatures you see, not some blanket builders SAE grade recomendation. The builder has no way of knowing what oil temperatures your engine runs.

If you can find out what actual viscosity the engine builder wants in the engine in cStokes under actual operating conditions, you can pick an oil that will give you that viscosity in your engine the way you drive it at your oil temperatures.

If you are just running your engine hard occasionally and not long and hard, you might find that an xW-40 oil is better for you.
 
I don't think many here will think you are insane. You are one of the few posters that methodically went through the right steps to determine the source of your engine failure. Time and again we see people who throw the bad parts in the trash then conjure up some scenario that they feel caused the failure. It was very informative reading about all of the research you have done on the engine.

You now have chosen to use racing oil, with a racing oil filter, for a high performance engine that is driven hard. You have also chosen to keep the bypass blocked, which is not an uncommon decision for your engine. Sounds like a great combo to me. My 02.
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We have heard a lot from FG about this situation. I wonder if Pete C. is around? You have chosen a filter mfg by the company he works for. Have you specifically asked Wix about your choice?
 
Arby

You're certainly not stupid, you've managed to afford this sort of distraction and stupid usually doesn't lend itself to that type of cash.

My only question would be why the steadfast alligience to the defeated bypass deal? I mean, the thought is in the right place, but if you've got concerns of a larger particle, worthy of causing damage, getting through, the origin of that particle is probably already damaged or decaying ..otherwise it wouldn't be there.
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But....
dunno.gif
it's a moot point if you're prepared to refresh the engine on a 3 year basis anyway. That's about how many racing seasons the bracket racers get out of them before they pull the engine. They use the HP or "R" versions of filters with a defeated bypass ..and long term wear isn't an issue. The duty itself lends itself to a relatively short life.
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If you decided, for whatever reason, to avoid the added wear of coarse filtration, you could simply add a bypass filter to clean up the abrasives that your racing filter allows to pass unencumbered. The setup can be had for as little as $50-$70 and could prehaps give you another year or two before a refresh.

..but I do see your point about having a mission in the winter. You can only watch so many hunting shows while you're filling the wood burning stove out in the shed ..beer surely helps. I always wondered what the wife gets to do in the winter
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We see there's a couple of questions out there that we'll try to grab and tackle.

No, we haven't had any direct conversations with Wix about their filters, just basing the decision to use them on the specs, comments made by others and a good old firsthand eyeball inspection. These babies are definitely not counterfeit, or Ecore imitations.

As for sticking with the blocked bypass, we called a local hi perf engine shop that has an outstanding reputation for top shelf sprint, stock, and drag car motors. We also checked with a buddy of ours that races a Jeep offroad. They both recommended sticking with it for various reasons.

Now that wouldn't make us bad people if we admitted to hanging out with Jeep guys, now would it?

We're OK with taking the motor apart to check things out on an occassional basis just to maintain a good working relationship with it.

My wife in this situation is the chief check writer, particularly during the winter months. Someone has to pay for those parts that the boys get to play with in the summer. As long as the boys bring home the bacon, she's OK with all of it. We consider ourselves fortunate.
 
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