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#3188400 - 11/15/13 09:19 AM 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20)
smbstyle Offline


Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Lakeland, FL
Just a history of this car; purchased it new, use the car on track occasionally, it is pretty much stock except for sticky street tires and race brake pads. Car has direct injection, it is a flat 4, 2.0L, premium fuel.

My first UOA was the German Castrol 0w30 with 998 miles on the oil, including 2 days on track. I didn't like how high the oil temps were getting on track (hovered in the high 280's, low 290's, and touched 300*), so that is why I switched to the Toyota SN 0w20.

Second UOA is with the Toyota SN 0w20 with a little over 2,000 miles on the oil, including 4 days on track. Oil temps dropped almost 10* overall on track (averaged high 270s up to the mid 280s).

I always use the OEM Subaru oil filer.


Let me know your thoughts on the UOA. I am a bit worried about the low flashpoint with the Toyota 0w20, so I am planning on running Redline 0w20 or Motul 300v 0w20 next time around.



Here is the UOA with the Toyota 0w20 in the left column and the GC 0w30 in the right column, with the averages in the middle:



Also, here are my follow up questions to Blackstone and their responses after each UOA:

FIRST UOA
ME:
I use the car a lot for track days. This was after two days on track, with approximately 250 track miles. Do you see any issue with running longer on the same oil? The oil temps were in the 290*s, so that is why I was worried about running more than two days on this oil. I just recently completed a single day event on Toyota 0w20, which I will be sending in a sample of as well after the next track day.

BLACKSTONE:
Running longer on the oil shouldn't be a problem. The oil itself was fine in your sample, and the wear levels weren't unexpected for a new engine, so we don't see why not. When running more track days on the oil, you might see some of the wear metals reading higher than average, but that's normal with engines used for racing. You could try increasing your oil runs slowly (say, adding one more track day or 300-500 miles to the previous run), and seeing how your engine and oil are handling that kind of use.



SECOND UOA:
ME: Few questions regarding the report. Is the flashpoint of 380*f for the Toyota 0w20 something to be concerned about for track usage? I noticed the flashpoint of the 0w30 German Castrol was much higher at 425*f. With the cSt viscosity @ 100*c being much lower than the previous sample of 0w30 German Castrol, do you think this Toyota 0w20 is still offering good protection for track use? The one thing I did not like about the 0w30 was oil temps would get close to 300*f on track, with the increased viscosity. Also, I noticed the first sample shows <0.5 in fuel %, and this second sample shows TR. Would the "trace" of fuel found in the sample be considered less than the <0.5 from the first sample? I'm just looking to know if that was an improvement from the first sample, or if more fuel showed up in this sample than the first.

BLACKSTONE:
Thanks for the question. Let me give you a little background. We use the flashpoint test to calculate the amount of fuel present. Each oil has a certain staring point (and that's where we get our should-be values). When we run the flashpoint test, your results should be above the "should be" value. That was the case with your first sample, so we wrote <0.5% fuel. Basically, that's the lowest amount you'll ever see on our reports. It's possible there is a small amount of fuel present, but it's unlikely, considering your flashpoint reading was plenty high. But given the way we test, we cannot say for certain that absolutely no fuel is present -- that's why we use <0.5%.
So in your sample here, the flashpoint was a little below the should-be value, which means there's something in the oil lowering the flashpoint. In this case, we suspect it's fuel (unless you're dumping paint thinner in the engine or something like that, but if that's the case, then Lord help us all!) Because your flashpoint was pretty close to the should-be value, we calculated fuel at just a trace. Not a lot, but enough that it did lower the flashpoint some.
So hopefully that helps answer your questions on the flashpoint.. but if you need more information, let me know.
As far as the viscosity, yes, the 0W/20 is a bit thinner than the 0W/30 you were using before. It didn't seem to hurt wear any -- after all your metals are better here than they were. I'd say the 0W/20 is giving you good protection. And if it's keeping temps where you want them, then by all means stick with it. It seems to be doing just fine!


Edited by smbstyle (11/15/13 09:22 AM)

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#3188408 - 11/15/13 09:25 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: smbstyle]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12340
Loc: Chicago, IL
That thing needs an oil cooler if you're sustaining high-270 F oil temps. I'd consider running a high performance 0w20 like Motul 300V or Red Line.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3188411 - 11/15/13 09:29 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: smbstyle]
Rolla07 Offline


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 1613
Loc: MTL, CANADA
Why not try M1 0w40 or even a 5w50..might handle temps better.
_________________________
2007 Corolla Red Pearl 120,000 miles
M1 AFE 0W20 oil/ Fram TG filter
2001 Accent 126,000 miles
Motomaster Supreme/ Pure One filter



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#3188413 - 11/15/13 09:31 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: dparm]
Bandito440 Offline


Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 1424
Loc: Northern NY
Originally Posted By: dparm
That thing needs an oil cooler if you're sustaining high-270 F oil temps. I'd consider running a high performance 0w20 like Motul 300V or Red Line.

This.
_________________________
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#3188414 - 11/15/13 09:31 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: smbstyle]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6099
Loc: Texas
I personally think its far too early in the engine's life to draw conclusions. The putting-around-town oil temps on my SRT dropped 5-10 degrees F (despite the weather getting HOTTER!) over the first 10,000 miles I put on it, and I'm sure a lot of that is just break-in. So is the cooler temp in your case due to the engine starting to feel good about itself? OR is it the thinner oil? I suspect both, frankly.

Peak oil temps pushing near 300F on the track for a modern engine are no issue, in fact some would argue that's right where they SHOULD be under hard usage. If the engine is spec'd for Xw20, then I probably wouldn't run GC in it since its on the thick side of 30, usually.
_________________________
'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 Cherokee 4.0, '11 Grand Cherokee 3.6

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#3188420 - 11/15/13 09:34 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: dparm]
smbstyle Offline


Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Lakeland, FL
Originally Posted By: dparm
That thing needs an oil cooler if you're sustaining high-270 F oil temps. I'd consider running a high performance 0w20 like Motul 300V or Red Line.


Funny you mention that; everyone on the BRZ forums go on and on about an oil cooler, but no one can specifically tell me why 270* is the magical number, and what happens at that temp that causes damage (either short term or long term). From everything I have researched, these oils are plenty capable of handling those temps, as well as the engines?

Plus, I haven't seen any reports of people losing an engine from sustaining 270* oil temps on track?

I don't like the aftermarket oil coolers because a.) warranty issues (if I blow the motor completely OEM I have a better chance of it being warrantied vs. with an oil cooler on it) b.) I've had them on prior cars and they are just another failure point, random leaks, etc. and have seen more fires from oil coolers than blown motors without oil coolers and c.) I've seen that the oil cooler can drop oil pressures dangerously low, and am worried about extra strain on the oil pump itself.

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#3188424 - 11/15/13 09:36 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: 440Magnum]
smbstyle Offline


Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Lakeland, FL
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I personally think its far too early in the engine's life to draw conclusions. The putting-around-town oil temps on my SRT dropped 5-10 degrees F (despite the weather getting HOTTER!) over the first 10,000 miles I put on it, and I'm sure a lot of that is just break-in. So is the cooler temp in your case due to the engine starting to feel good about itself? OR is it the thinner oil? I suspect both, frankly.

Peak oil temps pushing near 300F on the track for a modern engine are no issue, in fact some would argue that's right where they SHOULD be under hard usage. If the engine is spec'd for Xw20, then I probably wouldn't run GC in it since its on the thick side of 30, usually.



Definitely a valid point about the drop in oil temps; engine was pretty much brand new, and just finishing the break in period (right at 1k miles on the first day on track).

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#3188442 - 11/15/13 09:59 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: smbstyle]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6099
Loc: Texas
I've seen it quoted multiple places that the SRT engineers are on record saying they don't see any problems with oil at 300F. Of course SRTs (at least the -8 and -10, I neither know nor care about the -4 and -6 ;p ) spec a 0w40 synthetic oil. But still, degradation-wise modern oils don't cook off at <300F like older oils did, regardless of viscosity grade.

BTW, a co-worker has an FR-S, and the thing is fantastic. Not the straight-line speed he'd hoped for (he races a modified 3000GT), but still amazing. Given that the drivetrain is so overwhelmingly Subaru DNA, I'm still really surprised that they didn't go with a turbo engine. Yet... I bet its on the horizon if the cars sell well.
_________________________
'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 Cherokee 4.0, '11 Grand Cherokee 3.6

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#3188445 - 11/15/13 10:00 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: smbstyle]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12340
Loc: Chicago, IL
So far I'd say the high temps are not hurting anything, but I will consider a shorter change interval if you are going through repeated track days on a single OCI. I assume that car has a normal-sized sump (5-6qt); many of the high-performance cars, like my M3, Corvette, 911, etc have very big sumps -- 8+ qt.

While the sump temps might be nearing 300 F, remember that in critical parts of the engine the oil is even hotter.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3188449 - 11/15/13 10:01 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: dparm]
smbstyle Offline


Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Lakeland, FL
Originally Posted By: dparm
So far I'd say the high temps are not hurting anything, but I will consider a shorter change interval if you are going through repeated track days on a single OCI. I assume that car has a normal-sized sump (5-6qt); many of the high-performance cars, like my M3, Corvette, 911, etc have very big sumps -- 8+ qt.

While the sump temps might be nearing 300 F, remember that in critical parts of the engine the oil is even hotter.


Thanks for the feedback. Yes, a 6 quart sump. I am changing the oil after every 4 track days, so about 2,000 miles. Do you suggest shorter than that?

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#3188451 - 11/15/13 10:03 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: dparm]
smbstyle Offline


Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Lakeland, FL
Originally Posted By: dparm
So far I'd say the high temps are not hurting anything, but I will consider a shorter change interval if you are going through repeated track days on a single OCI. I assume that car has a normal-sized sump (5-6qt); many of the high-performance cars, like my M3, Corvette, 911, etc have very big sumps -- 8+ qt.

While the sump temps might be nearing 300 F, remember that in critical parts of the engine the oil is even hotter.


Also, just to follow up on temp readings; I believe the factory oil temp sensor is closer to the top of the engine near the oil filter (upper left front corner of the engine). which is what im reading temps from (ScanGaugeII OBDII reader)

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#3188454 - 11/15/13 10:06 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: 440Magnum]
smbstyle Offline


Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Lakeland, FL
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I've seen it quoted multiple places that the SRT engineers are on record saying they don't see any problems with oil at 300F. Of course SRTs (at least the -8 and -10, I neither know nor care about the -4 and -6 ;p ) spec a 0w40 synthetic oil. But still, degradation-wise modern oils don't cook off at <300F like older oils did, regardless of viscosity grade.

BTW, a co-worker has an FR-S, and the thing is fantastic. Not the straight-line speed he'd hoped for (he races a modified 3000GT), but still amazing. Given that the drivetrain is so overwhelmingly Subaru DNA, I'm still really surprised that they didn't go with a turbo engine. Yet... I bet its on the horizon if the cars sell well.


Great to hear, thanks!!

Yes, I absolutely love the car. It handles like a dream, incredibly precise and easy to drive at the limit. Very forgiving too and easy to control. I drove a bunch of other cars before the BRZ, including a Boss 302, a Porsche, Corvettes, etc., and it seems a little cliche, but this was the only car that I hopped into and felt like the car was an extension of me, rather than something I was trying to control. Everything about it is great, down to the simplistic interior, gauge placements, and even shift light in the tach.

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#3188469 - 11/15/13 10:24 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: smbstyle]
smbstyle Offline


Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Lakeland, FL
Originally Posted By: smbstyle
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I've seen it quoted multiple places that the SRT engineers are on record saying they don't see any problems with oil at 300F. Of course SRTs (at least the -8 and -10, I neither know nor care about the -4 and -6 ;p ) spec a 0w40 synthetic oil. But still, degradation-wise modern oils don't cook off at <300F like older oils did, regardless of viscosity grade.

BTW, a co-worker has an FR-S, and the thing is fantastic. Not the straight-line speed he'd hoped for (he races a modified 3000GT), but still amazing. Given that the drivetrain is so overwhelmingly Subaru DNA, I'm still really surprised that they didn't go with a turbo engine. Yet... I bet its on the horizon if the cars sell well.


Great to hear, thanks!!

Any insight on the lower flashpoint of the Toyota 0w20 sample?

Yes, I absolutely love the car. It handles like a dream, incredibly precise and easy to drive at the limit. Very forgiving too and easy to control. I drove a bunch of other cars before the BRZ, including a Boss 302, a Porsche, Corvettes, etc., and it seems a little cliche, but this was the only car that I hopped into and felt like the car was an extension of me, rather than something I was trying to control. Everything about it is great, down to the simplistic interior, gauge placements, and even shift light in the tach.

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#3188481 - 11/15/13 10:38 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: smbstyle]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14249
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: smbstyle
Plus, I haven't seen any reports of people losing an engine from sustaining 270* oil temps on track?


And you won't likely hear any. I had lunch with team SRT at a track event in 05 at Homestead and was told emphatically that while 300 degrees was indeed hot it didn't hurt M1 0w-40 a bit.

I also performed 2 different OA after track events and there simply was no problem.

Use a good synth and enjoy your car!
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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#3188483 - 11/15/13 10:44 AM Re: 2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20) [Re: smbstyle]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12340
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: smbstyle
Originally Posted By: dparm
So far I'd say the high temps are not hurting anything, but I will consider a shorter change interval if you are going through repeated track days on a single OCI. I assume that car has a normal-sized sump (5-6qt); many of the high-performance cars, like my M3, Corvette, 911, etc have very big sumps -- 8+ qt.

While the sump temps might be nearing 300 F, remember that in critical parts of the engine the oil is even hotter.


Thanks for the feedback. Yes, a 6 quart sump. I am changing the oil after every 4 track days, so about 2,000 miles. Do you suggest shorter than that?




I think that's fine. I'm sure you could go further, but until you sample to confirm...
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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