Thumbs Up for SAE 16 Vis Grade

[buster]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Since most of their engines outlast the cars they're in I'm sure a 10 - 15% reduction in lifespan would be deemed adequate.

- 5W-30 = 500,000 miles

- 5W-20 = 450,000 miles

- XX-16 = 425,000 miles

Most cars don't even stay on the road long enough to see these numbers. I could see them figuring a set of numbers like these to be an adequate trade-off.

Now if the above number spreads were true I'd run the 5W-30. But then again I'm a Bitog man.


Its so true. Cars fall apart around the powertrain, and well designed engines dont have lube or wear-related failures.

And for all the commentary about disposable cars and cheap stuff, very few people Ive ever seen actually keep their cars 20-30 years and >>150k miles for it to matter.


+1

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: buster
^+1. I agree. What does adequate mean?


A high probability of a low rate of failure for the population of engines during their 150k mile design life that leads to an acceptable level of warranty claims for the manufacturer.

 

[FoxS]

Adequate to double the number of posts on BITOG about thin vs thick oil.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: FoxS
Adequate to double the number of posts on BITOG about thin vs thick oil.

 

[blackman777]

Quote:
maintain adequate durability from oils with viscosity grades lower than SAE 0W-20.


I RTFA and the engineers are re-defining the grades. SAE 16 is really just the bottom 1/4th of the old SAE 20 grade. In other words today's thinnest 0w-20s (like Halvoline) will be relabaled 0w-16 without changing the formula.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
[/quote]
In other words today's thinnest 0w-20s (like Halvoline) will be relabaled 0w-16 without changing the formula.

Well that's not true since a 20wt oil must maintain a minimum HTHSV of 2.6cP. The HTHSV minimum for the new 0W-16 grade is 2.3cP.
Additionally, having a relatively low KV100 spec' doesn't necessarily make an oil light as HTHSV trumps the KV100 spec'.
A high viscosity index makes an oil light and Havoline 0W-20 is is a heavy 20wt as evidenced by it's lowish VI compared to the ultra high VI 0W-20's such as Toyota, Mazda and Sustina.

 

[blackman777]

Oh.
Yeah I guess you're right.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: buster
As a friend of mine said to me today: "Disposable cars. The used car market is going to be a nightmare in a few years between 15k oil changes,16 weight oils, and "lifetime" fills. Maybe they'll use it for small displacing motors (1.3 liters and less) and have huge oil pans?"

LOL


He knows what he is talking about, as it's not just an engine story, the gearbox oil is a tad too light to save fuel and they cost nearly as much to recon as an engine if the bearings get trashed.

 

[Turk]

Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
they probably went with 16 so it wouldn't look like anything else. ie imagine quick lube techs or your walmart shopper assuming 15w-40 is the right oil.


Probably like an "81" Mg. Aspirin. Like that 1Mg makes a difference.

 

[AlienBug]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: virginoil

Not sure what point is Honda are trying to make.

Surely Honda engineers should focus on other vehicle components that impact economy.



I have no doubt that they are. Honda has a lot of engineers. It's probably only a couple of handfuls of engineers that were on the 0w16 project.


Honda likely has "adequate" engineers to study oil AND other components.

 

[steve20]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Honda have admitted that with the 16, reliability is still "acceptable"...if it was "improved", you can guarantee that would be the statement, and if it was "identical", that's the word that would be used.

They are simply reducing further the headroom in their existing designs, and due to simple laws of physics, reliability will take a hit...how big ?...define "adequate"...but as others have pointed out, engines that aren't subject to negligence nearly always outlast the chassis...

Honda have also stated (another thread), that they are increasing the bearing projected areas on new designed engines, and reducing the bearing radial clearances, both measure will increase reliability with thinner oils.



If the 16 is 'adequate', and it is not that far away from the 0-20 grade, how 'adequate' is the 20 weight to begin with?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: steve20
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Honda have admitted that with the 16, reliability is still "acceptable"...if it was "improved", you can guarantee that would be the statement, and if it was "identical", that's the word that would be used.

They are simply reducing further the headroom in their existing designs, and due to simple laws of physics, reliability will take a hit...how big ?...define "adequate"...but as others have pointed out, engines that aren't subject to negligence nearly always outlast the chassis...

Honda have also stated (another thread), that they are increasing the bearing projected areas on new designed engines, and reducing the bearing radial clearances, both measure will increase reliability with thinner oils.



If the 16 is 'adequate', and it is not that far away from the 0-20 grade, how 'adequate' is the 20 weight to begin with?

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: blackman777

In other words today's thinnest 0w-20s (like Halvoline) will be relabaled 0w-16 without changing the formula.

Well that's not true since a 20wt oil must maintain a minimum HTHSV of 2.6cP. The HTHSV minimum for the new 0W-16 grade is 2.3cP [/quote]
Okay so 0w16 will be a Very lightweight 0w-20

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: 4ever4d
How long before Honda starts to back spec their vehicles for the 0w-16 oils? Newly designed engines are fine to use thinner oils but i don't think back specing engines is the thing to do.


This was said about 20 weight oils years ago too, 16 weight might be ok, might not. Only time will tell. Ill stick with a 0w20 in my Accord.

 

[3311]

Adequate<>Optimal.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: RamFan
Why on Earth they didn't make it Xw15 I still don't know. Also, am I the only one that doesn't like that the SAE doesn't have HTHS ranges versus merely minimums. I.e. Xw16 should be 2.3-2.59, Xw20 should be 2.6-2.89. It avoids things like GC, etc.



To eliminate any possibility of confusion. I wonder if its an sae 16 grade oil,or a 0w-16 or exactly how thin is it.
The trend towards thinner and thinner oils is getting to the point where they might even become monogrades again.
Will they even need viscosity index improvers it in the future if an oem specifies a 9 grade or...................?

 

[TrevorS]

I read somewhere that some manufacturers allow 5w20 to shear to HTHSv of 2.3.

If 0w16 is more shear stable, then this is not as big a decrease in viscosity as thought.

Dex VI has been in transmissions since 2006 and has the same lowest allowed viscosity as Dex III at 100c of 5.5cSt. Dex VI starts at 6.4 max while Dex III can start at 7.5 max.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
I read somewhere that some manufacturers allow 5w20 to shear to HTHSv of 2.3.

If 0w16 is more shear stable, then this is not as big a decrease in viscosity as thought.

When Honda does finally make available their 0W-16, which for sure is going to be synthetic, it should have a virgin viscosity lighter than any 0W/5W-20 but it wouldn't surprise me if it's no lighter in extended service than the most shear prone 0W/5W-20 already on the market.

 

[demarpaint]

I wonder if any of the manufactures specifying 5W20 will be back spec'ing to the 16 grade oil. From what I've read I really doubt it. The engines that will be calling for a 16 grade oil are specially designed to use it. It won't be like many of the engines that had no changes at all and were back spec'd from 5W30 to 5W20.

 

[Shannow]

It's funny how a couple of years ago, 20s were great because the 30s became 20s, and 20s didn't shear (*).

Now 20s shear, and 16s are good because they start where the sheared 20s end up.

(*) 20s not shearing was a claim made by the 20 advocates, who are now stating that they DO shear, and quite regularly apparently out of HTHS requirement.