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#2874675 - 01/17/13 08:19 PM Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29114
Loc: NJ
Linkadink

Quote:
Depending on the type of synthetic, other advantages of synthetic lubricants (beyond the high- and low-temperature advantage) may include:

Improved energy efficiency (less than 1 percent) due to better low-temperature properties
Higher oil film strength with some synthetics
Extended warranties by some equipment manufacturers
Lower engine hydrocarbon emissions
Extended drain intervals in some (clean) applications
Biodegradability with some synthetics (esters)
Natural detergency
Higher viscosity index
Fire resistance (phosphate esters)
_________________________
2014 Mazda 3 S GT AT - OE oil
2003 Forester XS 5spd - M1 0w40

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#2874781 - 01/17/13 10:33 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12782
Loc: UT
Originally Posted By: buster
Linkadink

Quote:
Depending on the type of synthetic, other advantages of synthetic lubricants (beyond the high- and low-temperature advantage) may include:

Improved energy efficiency (less than 1 percent) due to better low-temperature properties
Higher oil film strength with some synthetics
Extended warranties by some equipment manufacturers
Lower engine hydrocarbon emissions
Extended drain intervals in some (clean) applications
Biodegradability with some synthetics (esters)
Natural detergency
Higher viscosity index
Fire resistance (phosphate esters)


Let me highlight some words... LOL

Still wondering how all those engines out there make it...

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#2874801 - 01/17/13 10:57 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29114
Loc: NJ
LOL!!
_________________________
2014 Mazda 3 S GT AT - OE oil
2003 Forester XS 5spd - M1 0w40

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#2878461 - 01/20/13 10:23 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
Cujobob Offline


Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 150
Loc: Michigan
Synthetics cost about $10 more per oil change (sometimes more or less), so roughly...at most $50 a year more than running conventional. Cars cost many thousands of dollars, depending if bought new or used. Why would you cheap out on an essential like engine lubrication? If you extended a few OCI, you'd get your money back (more or less) and you'd probably get a cleaner engine. Where's the value in cheaping out on engine oil? To save $50 a year on an essential like lubrication for the engine? Just means one less [censored] family dinner at Olive Garden. You were better off at home.

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#2878467 - 01/20/13 10:30 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Cujobob]
Capa Offline


Registered: 01/04/10
Posts: 1207
Loc: Oklahoma
$50 a year? I do a yearly OCI with synthetics and buy the $30 5 quart deals with the uber filter. I'm saving money here with a better product.

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#2878473 - 01/20/13 10:34 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12782
Loc: UT
Lets see...

One vehicle went to 394,000 miles
Another to mid 300s
Another to low 300s
Another at 270k and still fine
Yet another at 285k and still runs like it did when I brought it home.

and so on.

And all on "cheap" oil... Still wondering how they do it?

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#2878483 - 01/20/13 10:48 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7102
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Longer oil change intervals
Better cold start characteristics in extreme cold
Better volatility
That's about all I got. There is nothing wrong with conventional oil and when a proper maintenance plan is adhered to I doubt very much an engine run on synthetic will outlive an engine that was fed conventional all its life.
In the end oil is oil. Pick a maintenance plan and find an oil that meets your needs and call er done.
This is of course just my humble opinion. I'm sure there are applications where a conventional isn't suitable but not all engines require big buck synthetics either.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#2878484 - 01/20/13 10:52 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
electrolover Offline


Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 3192
Loc: TEXAS
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Lets see...

One vehicle went to 394,000 miles
Another to mid 300s
Another to low 300s
Another at 270k and still fine
Yet another at 285k and still runs like it did when I brought it home.

and so on.

And all on "cheap" oil... Still wondering how they do it?




thumbsup Its easy when you take care of them. cheers
_________________________
2004 F150 5.4 160k-Castrol TXT 5/40, Distance+ 3410-KREEN
2004 Explorer 4.0 130k-PU 5w30, Distance+ 3410

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#2878486 - 01/20/13 10:56 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
Cujobob Offline


Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 150
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Lets see...

One vehicle went to 394,000 miles
Another to mid 300s
Another to low 300s
Another at 270k and still fine
Yet another at 285k and still runs like it did when I brought it home.

and so on.

And all on "cheap" oil... Still wondering how they do it?



I'm not saying it isn't possible, but what are the advantages to using 'cheap' oil? And with certain OCI, they're at least equivalent price-wise, wouldn't you agree? So if price is taken out of the equation, I see only benefits to going synthetic unless I'm missing something.

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#2878513 - 01/20/13 11:34 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Cujobob]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12782
Loc: UT
Originally Posted By: Cujobob

I'm not saying it isn't possible, but what are the advantages to using 'cheap' oil? And with certain OCI, they're at least equivalent price-wise, wouldn't you agree? So if price is taken out of the equation, I see only benefits to going synthetic unless I'm missing something.


Price taken out? crackmeup

And in a fantasy word I'd be driving a new Corvette every year.

Your post above asked one question for the most part. Why waste the $$ and in many apps you NEED (unlike NEEDING syn) to change the oil more often.

There is no magic in oil or oil.

Take care, Bill

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#2878529 - 01/20/13 11:53 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
Cujobob Offline


Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 150
Loc: Michigan
In a well-maintained vehicle, why would you need to change the oil more often? (outside of the random poor engine designs) Outside of a few exceptions, it would seem synthetics are a better choice. So for cars that may need oil changed more often, I can see where you're coming from...but isn't that simply an exception to a rule?

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#2878611 - 01/21/13 06:55 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Cujobob]
KrisZ Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4253
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Cujobob
Why would you cheap out on an essential like engine lubrication? If you extended a few OCI, you'd get your money back (more or less) and you'd probably get a cleaner engine. Where's the value in cheaping out on engine oil? To save $50 a year on an essential like lubrication for the engine? Just means one less [censored] family dinner at Olive Garden. You were better off at home.


Using your logic, why would YOU cheap out on lubrication? Using a wal mart special, group 3 "synthetic" that has marginally better specs than dino counterparts is definitely cheapening out. Why not put your money where your mouth is and use some uber expensive, all PAO oil that will run you $20 a quart? Why cheapen out?
_________________________
2006 Mazda3 2.0 - 190,000 Km
2003 Ford Focus ZX5 2.0 Zetec - 160,000Km
Both on good old dino juice smile

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#2878642 - 01/21/13 07:20 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
DragRace Offline


Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 2327
Loc: 1/4 Mile Track
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Lets see...

One vehicle went to 394,000 miles
Another to mid 300s
Another to low 300s
Another at 270k and still fine
Yet another at 285k and still runs like it did when I brought it home.

and so on.

And all on "cheap" oil... Still wondering how they do it?



I understand what your saying here,but to give an example to why synthetic oil,besides being more expensive oil has it's benefits.Our city dept street dept. and snow removal equipment was all converted over to synthetic oil a few years ago.In doing so,they've had less down time,resulting from their equipment starting easier,and plain starting period during the coldest times of the year.

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#2878681 - 01/21/13 08:14 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 9776
Loc: Illinois
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". So goes the saying. I appreciate the fact I do many less OCs with synthetic and still get the obvious other benefits as well. Look at all the oil changes I have saved in the last 35 years of using synthetic oil.
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 141,000 miles
M1 0-20
2007 Ford Focus 127,000 miles
M1 0-20
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF
M1 10-30 in all OPE

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#2878708 - 01/21/13 08:46 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Many cars on here that ran conventional but died early.

Cost of conventional change at dealer: $20 + $3/quart + tax
$30

Cost os synthetic change at dealer: $20 + $5/quart + tax
$41

Not a huge difference. Especially compared to how much "oil" you burn-u[ in 5000 miles of driving ($3/gallon times 200 == $600). So instead of $630 for conventional runs I'm spending $641 for synthetic runs. Mot a big deal.

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#2878754 - 01/21/13 09:20 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12782
Loc: UT
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Many cars on here that ran conventional but died early.

Cost of conventional change at dealer: $20 + $3/quart + tax
$30

Cost os synthetic change at dealer: $20 + $5/quart + tax
$41

Not a huge difference. Especially compared to how much "oil" you burn-u[ in 5000 miles of driving ($3/gallon times 200 == $600). So instead of $630 for conventional runs I'm spending $641 for synthetic runs. Mot a big deal.




So using "your" math the same vehicle uses less oil with conventional? (looks to be around 3 qts for the first number and 4 quarts for the second)

And again where are all those vehicles that "died" early? Since MOST vehicles out there do use a "cheap" "conventional" oil (many times more) where can I find them on my commute?

Or do they die when not on the road?

Interesting math.... (not just you but many)

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#2878762 - 01/21/13 09:28 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: DragRace]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12782
Loc: UT
Originally Posted By: DragRace

I understand what your saying here,but to give an example to why synthetic oil,besides being more expensive oil has it's benefits.Our city dept street dept. and snow removal equipment was all converted over to synthetic oil a few years ago.In doing so,they've had less down time,resulting from their equipment starting easier,and plain starting period during the coldest times of the year.


When you get the time please post the link where the city has all these "features".

I've seen public safety and utilities get free/reduced oil for a few test vehicles and in the end they kept doing what they have done for years.

Most snow removal equipment issues are with hydraulics and the electric motors to spread salt. The power trains are quite reliable with any spec'd fluids.

Until they can take NEW units and run a few with syn and a few normal then that would be valid data.

Take care, Bill

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#2878773 - 01/21/13 09:40 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
And again where are all those vehicles that "died" early?
They have been posted on this forum. Look for Honda Pilot and Honda 3.5 over the last few days.

And corrected math: Cost of conventional change at dealer: $20 + $3/quart
[$32]
Cost of synthetic change at dealer: $20 + $5/quart
[$40]
So instead of $632 for my gasoline + conventional oil I'm spending $640 for synthetic runs. Mot a big deal. Only 2% savings.

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#2878795 - 01/21/13 10:02 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
KrisZ Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4253
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
And again where are all those vehicles that "died" early?
They have been posted on this forum. Look for Honda Pilot and Honda 3.5 over the last few days.


Did you not see posts made by Trav? Did you read his first hand experience with this engine?
If you did let me know how synthetic would've prevented that failure.

What other engine failure were there? C’mon don’t hold out on us!
_________________________
2006 Mazda3 2.0 - 190,000 Km
2003 Ford Focus ZX5 2.0 Zetec - 160,000Km
Both on good old dino juice smile

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#2878813 - 01/21/13 10:15 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
electrolover Offline


Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 3192
Loc: TEXAS
It costs like $40 to get a dino oil change at jiffy lube. It costs me the same to do it myself with synthetic and a premium filter.
Thats how I justify using syn when I really dont need it. LOL
I know my reasoning is flawed, but don't point it out and I will keep ignoring that part. Haha
_________________________
2004 F150 5.4 160k-Castrol TXT 5/40, Distance+ 3410-KREEN
2004 Explorer 4.0 130k-PU 5w30, Distance+ 3410

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#2878815 - 01/21/13 10:18 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: electrolover]
aquariuscsm Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 9592
Loc: South Texas,USA
Originally Posted By: electrolover
It costs like $40 to get a dino oil change at jiffy lube. It costs me the same to do it myself with synthetic and a premium filter.
Thats how I justify using syn when I really dont need it. LOL
I know my reasoning is flawed, but don't point it out and I will keep ignoring that part. Haha


Haha I agree! I`m sure I don`t need it,but I want it :^) $24 for a jug M1,$6 for a filter.
_________________________
1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Syntec 10W40/Fram Ultra
Amsoil MTG(tranny)
Amsoil 80W90 GL5(rear diff)
Mobil 1 ATF
Redline Water Wetter

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#2878828 - 01/21/13 10:35 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: electrolover]
KrisZ Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4253
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: electrolover
It costs like $40 to get a dino oil change at jiffy lube. It costs me the same to do it myself with synthetic and a premium filter.
Thats how I justify using syn when I really dont need it. LOL
I know my reasoning is flawed, but don't point it out and I will keep ignoring that part. Haha


That's perfectly fine. If you sleep easier at night that's fine. If your relationship with your significant other is better because you're using synth, all the power to you. At least you know where you stand instead of inventing bogus claims to desperately prove your point.

But it's posts like few above claiming engine failures, or including some bogus math just to prove a point of their "superior" choice that bug me, because these claims, if not colled out, soon become gospel.
_________________________
2006 Mazda3 2.0 - 190,000 Km
2003 Ford Focus ZX5 2.0 Zetec - 160,000Km
Both on good old dino juice smile

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#2878893 - 01/21/13 11:27 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: KrisZ]
electrolover Offline


Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 3192
Loc: TEXAS
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: electrolover
It costs like $40 to get a dino oil change at jiffy lube. It costs me the same to do it myself with synthetic and a premium filter.
Thats how I justify using syn when I really dont need it. LOL
I know my reasoning is flawed, but don't point it out and I will keep ignoring that part. Haha


That's perfectly fine. If you sleep easier at night that's fine. If your relationship with your significant other is better because you're using synth, all the power to you. At least you know where you stand instead of inventing bogus claims to desperately prove your point.

But it's posts like few above claiming engine failures, or including some bogus math just to prove a point of their "superior" choice that bug me, because these claims, if not colled out, soon become gospel.


Agreed!
On a personal note. When my wife and I got our explorer it had always had quick lube oil changes with pyb and qsgb at 3k. It was documented. At 100k it looked like it was just built. I have posted the filller hole pics many times.

Its now at 130k and the only thing we have ever had to do to the engine was tune up, replace the egr and replace a cracked plastic thermostat housing.
_________________________
2004 F150 5.4 160k-Castrol TXT 5/40, Distance+ 3410-KREEN
2004 Explorer 4.0 130k-PU 5w30, Distance+ 3410

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#2878897 - 01/21/13 11:32 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
electrolover Offline


Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 3192
Loc: TEXAS
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
And again where are all those vehicles that "died" early?
They have been posted on this forum. Look for Honda Pilot and Honda 3.5 over the last few days.

And corrected math: Cost of conventional change at dealer: $20 + $3/quart
[$32]
Cost of synthetic change at dealer: $20 + $5/quart
[$40]
So instead of $632 for my gasoline + conventional oil I'm spending $640 for synthetic runs. Mot a big deal. Only 2% savings.


If you keep this ignorance up.....well it wont be good
_________________________
2004 F150 5.4 160k-Castrol TXT 5/40, Distance+ 3410-KREEN
2004 Explorer 4.0 130k-PU 5w30, Distance+ 3410

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#2878917 - 01/21/13 12:01 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: electrolover]
Danno Offline


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 742
Loc: Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: electrolover
It costs like $40 to get a dino oil change at jiffy lube. It costs me the same to do it myself with synthetic and a premium filter.
Thats how I justify using syn when I really dont need it. LOL
I know my reasoning is flawed, but don't point it out and I will keep ignoring that part. Haha


+1. I am with you on this one.

Plus I know that I can remove the oil filter and drain plug next time.

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#2878938 - 01/21/13 12:25 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: KrisZ]
Cujobob Offline


Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 150
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Cujobob
Why would you cheap out on an essential like engine lubrication? If you extended a few OCI, you'd get your money back (more or less) and you'd probably get a cleaner engine. Where's the value in cheaping out on engine oil? To save $50 a year on an essential like lubrication for the engine? Just means one less [censored] family dinner at Olive Garden. You were better off at home.


Using your logic, why would YOU cheap out on lubrication? Using a wal mart special, group 3 "synthetic" that has marginally better specs than dino counterparts is definitely cheapening out. Why not put your money where your mouth is and use some uber expensive, all PAO oil that will run you $20 a quart? Why cheapen out?


Because marginally better specs at small differences in price are clearly different than a huge difference in price for a whatever benefit those other oils offer. But you knew that. Synthetics offer at the very least, tiny benefits over a conventional oil. If it so happens that your thermostat goes, an issue with your coolant arises or a few other issues...wouldn't it be better to have synthetic in your engine as they are made to withstand higher temps?

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#2878943 - 01/21/13 12:29 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: electrolover]
cp3 Offline


Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2559
Loc: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: electrolover
It costs like $40 to get a dino oil change at jiffy lube. It costs me the same to do it myself with synthetic and a premium filter.
Thats how I justify using syn when I really dont need it. LOL
I know my reasoning is flawed, but don't point it out and I will keep ignoring that part. Haha


I wouldn't say flawed. I always thought part of DIY was getting better quality for the cost. It's what you're comfortable with that really matters.
_________________________
Dodge Charger|Pennzoil Platinum 5w20|Mopar MO-744
Pontiac G6 GT|Mobil 1 0w40|Mobil 1 M1-101

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#2878964 - 01/21/13 12:51 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
kam327 Offline


Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 369
Loc: Tampa
Let's keep it apples to apples here. dIYers getting their supplies at Walmart will spend, what $20 on conventional oil and an OEM filter and at least $35 on M1 or similar and a long distance filter. So 75% more for synthetic. From the UOAs I've seen on here M1 might consistently go 75% further than PYB, maybe not. So call it a financial draw. But why in the world would you want to let the contaminants that the filter can't trap flow around inside the engine any longer than you absolutely have to? That's what doesn't make sense to me in the whole conv vs synth argument.
_________________________
2014 Ford Focus Titanium 2.0L, PP 5W20 & PureOne
2013 Dodge Durango Crew 3.6L, Napa Syn 5W20 & Mopar

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#2878995 - 01/21/13 01:25 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4505
Loc: Mahzurrah!
You definitely can get a ROI using synthetics, however from what I've seen here many do not have the patience to do it. Our UOA section is loaded with 5k oil change samples of full synthetics.

From what I've been able to figure, the average "break even" point on most full syns is about 7,500 miles if you use the same filter as you would the dino. Get into 10k runs and the syn is costing you less.

But then the next question arises. Is full syn with 8k on it a better lube than new dino? Probably not.
_________________________
2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 @ 121k Pennzoil HM 10w30
Napa Silver 31515
KIA Sedona 38k, Chevy Lumina 171k, Chrysler Sebring 171k, Ford Ranger 175k!

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#2878999 - 01/21/13 01:27 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Cujobob]
KrisZ Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4253
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Cujobob
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Cujobob
Why would you cheap out on an essential like engine lubrication? If you extended a few OCI, you'd get your money back (more or less) and you'd probably get a cleaner engine. Where's the value in cheaping out on engine oil? To save $50 a year on an essential like lubrication for the engine? Just means one less [censored] family dinner at Olive Garden. You were better off at home.


Using your logic, why would YOU cheap out on lubrication? Using a wal mart special, group 3 "synthetic" that has marginally better specs than dino counterparts is definitely cheapening out. Why not put your money where your mouth is and use some uber expensive, all PAO oil that will run you $20 a quart? Why cheapen out?


Because marginally better specs at small differences in price are clearly different than a huge difference in price for a whatever benefit those other oils offer. But you knew that. Synthetics offer at the very least, tiny benefits over a conventional oil. If it so happens that your thermostat goes, an issue with your coolant arises or a few other issues...wouldn't it be better to have synthetic in your engine as they are made to withstand higher temps?


What small difference in price are you talking about. Most OTS synthetics are anywhere from 75%-100% more expensive than equivalent dino offerings. Or are you using sale price of synthetics vs full price for dino,as your "comparison"?

Also you clearly said that using dino vs synthetic is "cheapening out", yet you do exact same thing and all of the sudden it's OK? crackmeup
Go tell that to RP, Red Line and Amsoil users, see what you get.


Edited by KrisZ (01/21/13 01:28 PM)
_________________________
2006 Mazda3 2.0 - 190,000 Km
2003 Ford Focus ZX5 2.0 Zetec - 160,000Km
Both on good old dino juice smile

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#2879003 - 01/21/13 01:31 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: kam327]
Cujobob Offline


Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 150
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: kam327
Let's keep it apples to apples here. dIYers getting their supplies at Walmart will spend, what $20 on conventional oil and an OEM filter and at least $35 on M1 or similar and a long distance filter. So 75% more for synthetic. From the UOAs I've seen on here M1 might consistently go 75% further than PYB, maybe not. So call it a financial draw. But why in the world would you want to let the contaminants that the filter can't trap flow around inside the engine any longer than you absolutely have to? That's what doesn't make sense to me in the whole conv vs synth argument.


You can easily spend less than that on synthetic and the filter is usually seen as better quality anyway, isn't it (the extended mile filters)? Every auto parts store near me has a special on synthetic and filter for $30. So 50% more if the $20 price holds true. But instead of looking at percentages, which make the differences seem much greater than they actually are...look at actual numbers. Ten dollars per oil change.

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#2879024 - 01/21/13 01:50 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: KrisZ]
Cujobob Offline


Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 150
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Cujobob
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Cujobob
Why would you cheap out on an essential like engine lubrication? If you extended a few OCI, you'd get your money back (more or less) and you'd probably get a cleaner engine. Where's the value in cheaping out on engine oil? To save $50 a year on an essential like lubrication for the engine? Just means one less [censored] family dinner at Olive Garden. You were better off at home.


Using your logic, why would YOU cheap out on lubrication? Using a wal mart special, group 3 "synthetic" that has marginally better specs than dino counterparts is definitely cheapening out. Why not put your money where your mouth is and use some uber expensive, all PAO oil that will run you $20 a quart? Why cheapen out?


Because marginally better specs at small differences in price are clearly different than a huge difference in price for a whatever benefit those other oils offer. But you knew that. Synthetics offer at the very least, tiny benefits over a conventional oil. If it so happens that your thermostat goes, an issue with your coolant arises or a few other issues...wouldn't it be better to have synthetic in your engine as they are made to withstand higher temps?


What small difference in price are you talking about. Most OTS synthetics are anywhere from 75%-100% more expensive than equivalent dino offerings. Or are you using sale price of synthetics vs full price for dino,as your "comparison"?

Also you clearly said that using dino vs synthetic is "cheapening out", yet you do exact same thing and all of the sudden it's OK? crackmeup
Go tell that to RP, Red Line and Amsoil users, see what you get.


There are always sale prices, we don't live in a world of full msrp. You can buy deals on oil and plan ahead since you know you'll be changing it again soon enough. I see differences in prices being quoted as percentages a lot because it makes a small amount (10$) seem astronomical by comparison. These are vehicles that average $20,000 new (at the very least). I'm not suggesting one pays double the price for trivial lubricants or fluids, this is engine lubrication. I'm looking for valid reasons to purchase conventional over synthetic, I really am. I'm not rich, but what I certainly don't want to pay for is a new car before its time.

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#2879076 - 01/21/13 02:28 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Capa Offline


Registered: 01/04/10
Posts: 1207
Loc: Oklahoma
For those claiming that synthetics have a "tiny" advantage over conventional, you are more than welcome to provide a professional paper that backs that opinion. All the papers that I've seen on this site (and there have been many) show that synthetics have a substantial advantage. Then again, there are those known cases where conventionals were used in applications that called for synthetics and...lets just say that the damage wasn't tiny.

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#2879080 - 01/21/13 02:32 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
il_signore97 Offline


Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 505
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I've been a long time user of synthetics, but I can't always say that I got the best value from them either. I certainly went at least double the conventional OCI, and have never had a problem doing so in all of the years I've been using syn oils. For the most part, I've always used syn oils due to periods of extreme cold when I spend time up north skiing. Not that its necessary, but it sounds better wink

However, now that I have my Benz, I have made a personal challenge out of NOT changing the prescribed syn oil early! So far, I have 72,000 km on the car, and it has only had 3 oil changes in its entire life. First one was at 20,000 km, second at 40,000 km, and 3rd was at 60,000 km (roughly). I'm very impressed at how the car does NOT use any appreciable amount of oil in 20,000 km OCI's. I check the dip stick regularly, and it hardly moves over that interval. I'm impressed and will continue enjoying less time under the car for the (hopefully long) life of this one.

cheers
_________________________
il_signore97
'09 Mercedes-Benz C300 Sport Calcite White 6-spd M/T

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#2879104 - 01/21/13 02:50 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29114
Loc: NJ
I just find it funny how people get over the price of oil. My gasoline expense is far greater than my oil change expense. Cars are expensive, I don't sweat trying to save $1-$4qt on oil because relatively speaking, oil is cheap and engines are not.
_________________________
2014 Mazda 3 S GT AT - OE oil
2003 Forester XS 5spd - M1 0w40

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#2879127 - 01/21/13 03:06 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4828
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
buster - I agree with you. As a user of synthetic lubricants since the 1970s I can assure you that certain vehciles (engines, transmissions) do perform significantly better than when using mineral lubeicanst. In some cases this includes significantly extended life of seals and bearings (drive line), feel (power steering), functionality (engines) soot handling (engines) and etc. This has typically allowed extended OCIs, sometimes in excess of six times that recommended by the Manufacturer.

That said, for me it has always been a cost effective excercise - for some it never will be

I have acquired this attitude from extensive comparative field testing and via a number of Oil Companies products and over a large number of vehicles/equipment Brands and types
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#2879133 - 01/21/13 03:09 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
aquariuscsm Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 9592
Loc: South Texas,USA
Besides saving money and knowing the job was done right,I find working on my car to be therapeutic in a sense. I enjoy getting outside and working on my car. Whenever I change the oil,I look over everything,clean the undercarriage,and just enjoy taking care of my car the best I can.
_________________________
1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Syntec 10W40/Fram Ultra
Amsoil MTG(tranny)
Amsoil 80W90 GL5(rear diff)
Mobil 1 ATF
Redline Water Wetter

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#2879207 - 01/21/13 04:24 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
RamFan Offline


Registered: 05/09/10
Posts: 1556
Loc: Illinois, U.S.A
People, please stop bashing the other side. I am a synthetic advocate for various reasons. Most importantly though it is because of a conversation I had with a very respected board member who we all know of very well for his very informative posts. Synthetic oils are a better quality fluid, that can't be disputed. The question comes in when perceived benefit is considered.

Cost comparison for the Charger, 6qts @2 OCs a year with Puro Classic filter using Walmart prices:
VWB: $24.43 per oci, $48.86 yearly cost, $244.30 cost after 5 years.
SynPower: $39.35 per oci, $78.70 yearly cost, $393.50 cost after 5 years.

For me, an extra $14.92 per oil change or an extra $149.20 over the course of 5 years is not a big deal. $14.92 isn't even enough for me and my girl to get dinner! I'm willing to spend a little extra for a fluid that I KNOW is better and for a fluid that WILL make my winter starting easier on the engine. Also, I would rather have synthetic in my sump if my thermostat decides to fail, I'm running late and need to be heavier on the throttle straight out of the driveway, I feel like having fun with repeated WOT sprints, or any other circumstance where a synthetic MIGHT protect better. Some may not feel that way, and there's nothing wrong with that! It's hard to go wrong with any oil today, conventional or synthetic, find an oil that meets your specs and your engine will likely live a long life.




Edited by RamFan (01/21/13 04:32 PM)
_________________________
06 Monte Carlo LT
+3.9l V6 - 147k - Havoline HM 5w30 - Security - OLM
04 Ram 1500 SLT
+5.7l V8 - 160k - SynPower 5w30 - Fram TG - 5k/3mo

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#2879215 - 01/21/13 04:28 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Art_Vandelay Offline


Registered: 11/30/08
Posts: 1339
Loc: USA
Consider this cost example using Walmart pricing and identical filter (FILTER removed from cost comparison). Car driven 24,000 miles per year.

- $10.99 Conventional changed at 4000 miles X 6 changes = 65.94
- $20.99 Synthetic changed at 6000 miles X 4 changes = 83.96
- 960 gallons of fuel used X $3.25/gallon = $3120 in a 25mpg vehicle
- 0.5% increase in fuel efficiency (synthetic) = $15.60

That's $18.02 (in added cost) - $15.60 (in fuel savings) making synthetic $2.42 more expensive.

Since synthetic will offer greater:

- Heat protection
- Cold (start-up) protection
- Varnish resistance
- Sludge protection
- Resistance to thickening

Isn't that worth the $2.42?

Now I ask the question: Is the worst (SN GF-5)*** synthetic better than the best (SN GF-5) conventional ? (Do not include semi-synthetic labelled products in this comparison).

I say yes. I say it's impossible for it not to be. A synthetic base stock always wins.
If you say it depends on the add-pack, then I ask you to show me a single example, of an SN GF-5 synthetic, with a BAD add-pack, sold anywhere in the United States.


*** I'm using SN GF-5 for convenience of comparison. Any equally spec'd conventional and synthetic can be contrasted.
_________________________
It all started when I decided to get my oil analyzed instead of my head examined...

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#2879251 - 01/21/13 05:07 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
donnyj08 Offline


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 1014
Loc: indiana
Originally Posted By: buster
I just find it funny how people get over the price of oil. My gasoline expense is far greater than my oil change expense. Cars are expensive, I don't sweat trying to save $1-$4qt on oil because relatively speaking, oil is cheap and engines are not.



This is my take as well. I have used many conventional and synthetic oils, and i personally prefer synthetic. Do i pay full price for it? no way. I buy it when its on sale or clearance, regardless of brand. if i cant find synthetic on sale i gladly go buy MS5K or trop artic syn blend for $3.50 a qt.

The point is if i can buy RP for $4.00 a qt like the previous i bought, ill pay 50 cents a qt more. I am interested in saving money, but if we are comparing MS5K to RP for a difference of 50 Cents im going to buy the RP all day long. I love the mobil super line of oils, i have since they came out, and i use them. I however, will continue to use synthetics more often as long as i keep stumbling across great rebates and clearances.
_________________________
2000 Corvette FRC. 5w30 QSUD; P1
2008 nissan Armada. 10w30 QSUD; Purolator Classic
2012 Yamaha FZ6R. 10w40 M1 4T SYN

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#2879259 - 01/21/13 05:12 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 9776
Loc: Illinois
[quote=buster]I just find it funny how people get over the price of oil. My gasoline expense is far greater than my oil change expense. Cars are expensive, I don't sweat trying to save $1-$4qt on oil because relatively speaking, oil is cheap and engines are not. [/quote

I feel the same way. If I used dino I most likely would change every 5K. With M1 I change at 10K. So how is the cost a factor? Also look at the resourses I have save for the last 35 years.
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 141,000 miles
M1 0-20
2007 Ford Focus 127,000 miles
M1 0-20
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF
M1 10-30 in all OPE

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#2879265 - 01/21/13 05:18 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: tig1]
electrolover Offline


Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 3192
Loc: TEXAS
Tig whata your driving habits? Just normal mixed or all highway?
Ever got any uoas?
_________________________
2004 F150 5.4 160k-Castrol TXT 5/40, Distance+ 3410-KREEN
2004 Explorer 4.0 130k-PU 5w30, Distance+ 3410

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#2879344 - 01/21/13 06:24 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: electrolover]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 9776
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: electrolover
Tig whata your driving habits? Just normal mixed or all highway?
Ever got any uoas?


The Focus is about 30% local and 70% hwy. The Fusion is probably more like 60% hwy and 40% local. I did a UOA of the Focus several years ago for kicks, however I was using M1 5-30EP at the time. All was normal. Johnny and Fsskier convinced me to try 0-20 which I did 2 years ago. I really like the way it performs in the Duratechs. I actually plan to do a UOA soon on the Focus to see how the life time air filter is doing. Outside of that I don't do UOAs.
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 141,000 miles
M1 0-20
2007 Ford Focus 127,000 miles
M1 0-20
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF
M1 10-30 in all OPE

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#2879402 - 01/21/13 07:01 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
cb_13 Offline


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 353
Loc: Missouri
Wow I guess I am soooo lucky that my vehicles start in the winter or last past the warranty period on conventional oil.


Edited by cb_13 (01/21/13 07:03 PM)

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#2879413 - 01/21/13 07:10 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: cb_13]
Cujobob Offline


Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 150
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: cb_13
Wow I guess I am soooo lucky that my vehicles start in the winter or last past the warranty period on conventional oil.


To me, it just seems like there are a lot of variables. Your sarcasm implies that those with opposing views (synthetic oil users) are saying it is a certainty any vehicle using conventional oil will fail in the specific circumstances mentioned. That is hardly the case. What's being said is there's a chance using one oil over the other could lead to engine damage. Certain vehicles are more sensitive to oil changes, as well. Nobody is implying that using regular conventional oil is wrong in any way, just that they don't want to take the chance should a situation arise where they'd wish they had used synthetic.

Like the great Allen Iverson said, 'we talkin bout practice!'

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#2879436 - 01/21/13 07:21 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
gfh77665 Offline


Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 2276
Loc: Southeast Texas
Conventionals AND synthetics both have their place, and both offer certain benefits, depending on applcations. Too bad the bashers immeadiatly came out. I knew it was going to happen before I even clicked on the topic. Go figure.

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#2879446 - 01/21/13 07:27 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: tig1]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7102
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: electrolover
Tig whata your driving habits? Just normal mixed or all highway?
Ever got any uoas?


The Focus is about 30% local and 70% hwy. The Fusion is probably more like 60% hwy and 40% local. I did a UOA of the Focus several years ago for kicks, however I was using M1 5-30EP at the time. All was normal. Johnny and Fsskier convinced me to try 0-20 which I did 2 years ago. I really like the way it performs in the Duratechs. I actually plan to do a UOA soon on the Focus to see how the life time air filter is doing. Outside of that I don't do UOAs.


It was tig that suggested I try the AFE in my hemi. This morning when I started my truck it was -38. The truck started without issue,the power steering pump wasn't happy but the engine didn't mind at all.
I know my truck. Every sound,squeal,tap,everything. With PP at -30 it would turn over slightly slower then the AFE at -38.
Not scientific but noticeable to me. It also seems to rev a bit more free,like there is less of a restriction or something. Again. Not scientific.
I'm not a mobil fan and to be honest I was looking for a reason to not like this oil,as of yet I've found none. In the miserable cold we experience here I don't think there is a better oil.
Now if it was the heat of the summer and I was towing my trailer I would go up a grade but in these temps the AFE can't be beat.
I'm sure there are better oils out there for these kinds of temps but because I can get this oil anywhere,easily,and it's usually under 10 bucks a quart it's a no brainer to me.
The lower zddp found in this oil concerned me at first but there is alot of Mobil's in house version of moly in it which I feel comfortable in believing compensates for it.
I'm glad I took tigs advice and gave this oil an honest shot in my hemi.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#2879704 - 01/21/13 11:21 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
DragRace Offline


Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 2327
Loc: 1/4 Mile Track
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: DragRace

I understand what your saying here,but to give an example to why synthetic oil,besides being more expensive oil has it's benefits.Our city dept street dept. and snow removal equipment was all converted over to synthetic oil a few years ago.In doing so,they've had less down time,resulting from their equipment starting easier,and plain starting period during the coldest times of the year.


When you get the time please post the link where the city has all these "features".

I've seen public safety and utilities get free/reduced oil for a few test vehicles and in the end they kept doing what they have done for years.

Most snow removal equipment issues are with hydraulics and the electric motors to spread salt. The power trains are quite reliable with any spec'd fluids.

Until they can take NEW units and run a few with syn and a few normal then that would be valid data.

Take care, Bill



I dont have any "link" to post. I'm goin from what my father told me,which he heard from a guy who does all the mechanical work on all of the snow plows,gravel trucks,etc. for the city.My dad has since passed away from Cancer,and so I cant go back and ask him what synthetic oil they used,etc,frankly it doesnt matter,period.They benefited from switching over to synthetic lubricants.No-one in the conversation had any reason to lie,or mislead,so take it for what it's worth.

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#2879710 - 01/21/13 11:29 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: DragRace]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4828
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
DragRace - Your Father's experience mirrors mine in a number of Fleets
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#2879735 - 01/22/13 12:05 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: kam327]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: kam327
Let's keep it apples to apples here. dIYers getting their supplies at Walmart will spend, what $20 on conventional oil and an OEM filter and at least $35 on M1 or similar and a long distance filter. So 75% more for synthetic.

Not seeing that. Here's my relative costs:

$632 for my gasoline + conventional oil + dealer labor charge over 5000 miles
-or-
$640 for my gasoline + synthetic oil + dealer charge

I only see 2% difference not 75.


Edited by blackman777 (01/22/13 12:05 AM)

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#2879784 - 01/22/13 03:40 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: DragRace]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12782
Loc: UT
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: DragRace

I understand what your saying here,but to give an example to why synthetic oil,besides being more expensive oil has it's benefits.Our city dept street dept. and snow removal equipment was all converted over to synthetic oil a few years ago.In doing so,they've had less down time,resulting from their equipment starting easier,and plain starting period during the coldest times of the year.


When you get the time please post the link where the city has all these "features".

I've seen public safety and utilities get free/reduced oil for a few test vehicles and in the end they kept doing what they have done for years.

Most snow removal equipment issues are with hydraulics and the electric motors to spread salt. The power trains are quite reliable with any spec'd fluids.

Until they can take NEW units and run a few with syn and a few normal then that would be valid data.

Take care, Bill



I dont have any "link" to post. I'm goin from what my father told me,which he heard from a guy who does all the mechanical work on all of the snow plows,gravel trucks,etc. for the city.My dad has since passed away from Cancer,and so I cant go back and ask him what synthetic oil they used,etc,frankly it doesnt matter,period.They benefited from switching over to synthetic lubricants.No-one in the conversation had any reason to lie,or mislead,so take it for what it's worth.


Interesting response. I ask because I am truly interested and HAVE ACTUAL experience with different results and wanted to see the other side.

Asked with respect and was respectful.




I guess friend of someone is factual around here...

Never mind. I'm done. I know what works for most of the fleets and personal vehicles out there.

Bill

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#2879785 - 01/22/13 03:43 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12782
Loc: UT
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: kam327
Let's keep it apples to apples here. dIYers getting their supplies at Walmart will spend, what $20 on conventional oil and an OEM filter and at least $35 on M1 or similar and a long distance filter. So 75% more for synthetic.

Not seeing that. Here's my relative costs:

$632 for my gasoline + conventional oil + dealer labor charge over 5000 miles
-or-
$640 for my gasoline + synthetic oil + dealer charge

I only see 2% difference not 75.


Why the gas numbers being put in?

Please don't answer. Don't really care but find it interesting people throw in other factors than the subject matter.

Bill

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#2879806 - 01/22/13 05:28 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
FoxS Offline


Registered: 12/17/12
Posts: 748
Loc: CA
Because synthetic is a more engineered, hi tech oil, then under the wider range of real life operating conditions we see in modern life, it allows the manufacturer to more precisely control the exact mileage where engine failure occurs, thus helping them better predict and plan for future demand.

That's why more and more manufacturers are moving to synthetic only oil requirements.

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#2879811 - 01/22/13 05:37 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: FoxS]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26345
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: FoxS
Because synthetic is a more engineered, hi tech oil, then under the wider range of real life operating conditions we see in modern life, it allows the manufacturer to more precisely control the exact mileage where engine failure occurs, thus helping them better predict and plan for future demand.

That's why more and more manufacturers are moving to synthetic only oil requirements.


Why are the "synthetic" oil manufacturers "engineering" their product back to lesser specifications than they were ten years ago ?

If flash points, pour points, and inherent VI were relevant to your argument, they would have got better over the last decade than generally devolved to "equally useful" status of GrIII=GrIV.

As to planning engine failures...

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#2879834 - 01/22/13 06:18 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
FoxS Offline


Registered: 12/17/12
Posts: 748
Loc: CA
Shannow, it also causes there to be more iron in the UOAs.

In particular, the iron type e: Iron-E

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#2880123 - 01/22/13 11:23 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25968
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: DragRace

I understand what your saying here,but to give an example to why synthetic oil,besides being more expensive oil has it's benefits.Our city dept street dept. and snow removal equipment was all converted over to synthetic oil a few years ago.In doing so,they've had less down time,resulting from their equipment starting easier,and plain starting period during the coldest times of the year.


When you get the time please post the link where the city has all these "features".

I've seen public safety and utilities get free/reduced oil for a few test vehicles and in the end they kept doing what they have done for years.

Most snow removal equipment issues are with hydraulics and the electric motors to spread salt. The power trains are quite reliable with any spec'd fluids.

Until they can take NEW units and run a few with syn and a few normal then that would be valid data.

Take care, Bill



I dont have any "link" to post. I'm goin from what my father told me,which he heard from a guy who does all the mechanical work on all of the snow plows,gravel trucks,etc. for the city.My dad has since passed away from Cancer,and so I cant go back and ask him what synthetic oil they used,etc,frankly it doesnt matter,period.They benefited from switching over to synthetic lubricants.No-one in the conversation had any reason to lie,or mislead,so take it for what it's worth.


Interesting response. I ask because I am truly interested and HAVE ACTUAL experience with different results and wanted to see the other side.

Asked with respect and was respectful.




I guess friend of someone is factual around here...

Never mind. I'm done. I know what works for most of the fleets and personal vehicles out there.

Bill



Bill, since it is applicable to this discussion, our plow trucks for the county are all serviced at a large commercial truck centre that slammds15 worked at until quite recently. These trucks were all serviced with Delvac 1 and synthetic fluids because of their cold temperature performance. I will ask him to chime in about the OCI length, but the primary reason for the lubricant choice was due to the operating conditions of these trucks and there was indeed a noted improvement in their cold weather operation from this transition.
_________________________
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02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
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#2880686 - 01/22/13 06:55 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Cujobob]
cb_13 Offline


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 353
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: Cujobob
Originally Posted By: cb_13
Wow I guess I am soooo lucky that my vehicles start in the winter or last past the warranty period on conventional oil.


To me, it just seems like there are a lot of variables. Your sarcasm implies that those with opposing views (synthetic oil users) are saying it is a certainty any vehicle using conventional oil will fail in the specific circumstances mentioned. That is hardly the case. What's being said is there's a chance using one oil over the other could lead to engine damage. Certain vehicles are more sensitive to oil changes, as well. Nobody is implying that using regular conventional oil is wrong in any way, just that they don't want to take the chance should a situation arise where they'd wish they had used synthetic.

Like the great Allen Iverson said, 'we talkin bout practice!'

No my sarcasm is a reaction to the attitude of some(not all) that if you do not use synthetic you do not care about your vehicle. I usually keep my vehicles until 200k miles. No major engine problems on any I have owned. I have used but never stuck with a full synthetic oil. I do always use an oil that meets the specifications of my engine though.

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#2880697 - 01/22/13 07:01 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9195
Loc: OH
I'll give everybody the best possible reason for using synthetic oil:
It's cheaper.
Synthetics are the premium products in their respective lines and carry higher margins.
The blenders would like you to become married to them.
They thus promote them heavily.
The last three jugs of AFE 0W-30 I used were $10.00 after MIR.
I have 25 qts of QSUD 5W-30 FAR and one jug of QSUD 0W-20 around $1.00 after MIR.
I have three jugs of Ultra FAR.
I have one jug of PP 0W-20 that was around $5.00 after MIR.
I have maybe six jugs of FAR G-Oil 5W-30.
My point is that for those who follow the deals, synthetics are usually on some sort of a deal pretty regularly, so they are often the least cost choice.
An FAR oil will usually run around 50-60 cents a quart after sales tax and postage.
Pretty darn cheap.
_________________________
12 Accord LX 22K HGMO 0W-20
09 Forester 64K PU 5W-30
02 Accord 127K G-Oil 5W-30
01 Focus ZX3 98K Synpower 10W-30
95 BMW 318iC 146K Defy 10W-40

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#2880711 - 01/22/13 07:14 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: fdcg27]
KrisZ Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4253
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I'll give everybody the best possible reason for using synthetic oil:
It's cheaper.
Synthetics are the premium products in their respective lines and carry higher margins.
The blenders would like you to become married to them.
They thus promote them heavily.
The last three jugs of AFE 0W-30 I used were $10.00 after MIR.
I have 25 qts of QSUD 5W-30 FAR and one jug of QSUD 0W-20 around $1.00 after MIR.
I have three jugs of Ultra FAR.
I have one jug of PP 0W-20 that was around $5.00 after MIR.
I have maybe six jugs of FAR G-Oil 5W-30.
My point is that for those who follow the deals, synthetics are usually on some sort of a deal pretty regularly, so they are often the least cost choice.
An FAR oil will usually run around 50-60 cents a quart after sales tax and postage.
Pretty darn cheap.


Can't argue with those prices! thumbsup
_________________________
2006 Mazda3 2.0 - 190,000 Km
2003 Ford Focus ZX5 2.0 Zetec - 160,000Km
Both on good old dino juice smile

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#2880743 - 01/22/13 07:27 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: fdcg27]
NewYorkBuck Offline


Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 29
Loc: NY, NY
I think the decision to use synthetics comes down to the car you have, how you use it, and how long you plan to have it. For instance, my garage queen has a turbo engine that would cost 22-40k to replace depending upon the rebuild/new and who installs it. For that car, I will gladly spend an extra $40 per oil change to use the best possible oil. I would probably gladly spend an extra $200 if the consensus that the oil was the best possible for my application. I own my car and count on having it indefinitely. IMO, $200 per year is cheap insurance for the most protective component of a $40,000 engine.

Conversely, my fiancee drives a leased Honda Fit. Her car has no special need for synthetics, nor do I see the benefit in adding the cost to a car that she will trade in in a year. Ive used dino w the recommneded vicosity since she's had it. No problems - either with the car or sleeping at night.

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#2880781 - 01/22/13 07:53 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: blackman777
$632 for my gasoline + conventional oil + dealer labor charge over 5000 miles
-or-
$640 for my gasoline + synthetic oil + dealer charge
Why the gas numbers being put in? Please don't answer. Don't really care but find it interesting people throw in other factors than the subject matter.


I'm making the point that debating over conventional vs. synthetic cost is not that important, because it is such a small part of total cost running a car 5000 miles. It's just noise compared to the Hundreds blown on burning gasoline. This is why I don't see the extra few candybars spent on synthetic as any big deal.






Edited by blackman777 (01/22/13 08:06 PM)

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#2880801 - 01/22/13 08:02 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: NewYorkBuck]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9195
Loc: OH
If I had a 22-40K engine, oil cost would not be a consideration.
I'd pay Terry for a UOA and interpretation and use whatever he thought was needed.
For the cars I have, I use readily available oils that don't cost a whole lot.
_________________________
12 Accord LX 22K HGMO 0W-20
09 Forester 64K PU 5W-30
02 Accord 127K G-Oil 5W-30
01 Focus ZX3 98K Synpower 10W-30
95 BMW 318iC 146K Defy 10W-40

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#2880811 - 01/22/13 08:07 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9195
Loc: OH
I'm with you on this, blackman.
The extra cost of a synthetic oil is nothing as compared to the overall running costs of the car.
OTOH, the point is often made that if a conventional protects the engine as well as does a synthetic, then any marginal expenditure for a synthetic is pure waste.
UOAs show that synthetics don't seem to provide any better protection than synthetics for most engines in most uses.
_________________________
12 Accord LX 22K HGMO 0W-20
09 Forester 64K PU 5W-30
02 Accord 127K G-Oil 5W-30
01 Focus ZX3 98K Synpower 10W-30
95 BMW 318iC 146K Defy 10W-40

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#2880928 - 01/22/13 09:51 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11182
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Why the gas numbers being put in?


You know the reason, Bill. wink An extra $10 for synthetic over conventional isn't a big deal compared to $1000 a year in gas, or a $40000 car, right?

It's rationalization. I have no problem with synthetics, have used them, and will use them again. However, they're not going to make my vehicle last forever. They're not going to double my horsepower. They won't cut my gas bills in half. There are advantages, and a good ROI is possible, but difficult.

If I were as brave or as smart as tig1, I'd be doing exactly what he's doing - 10,000 miles on M1 as per their warranty coverage versus 3,750 miles on PYB per Infiniti's warranty. And I would have adequate ROI, and that's without any UOAs.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2880987 - 01/22/13 11:11 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Garak]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: Garak
[quote=Bill in Utah]It's rationalization.

Also known as logic. If we're already spending thousands BURNING oil in our cars (gas or diesel), what difference does 6 or 8 extra dollars make to run synthetic in the pan. It's about 1% extra on total operating cost. ----- And we know that it's better than conventional, because it passes tough standards VW507, dexos, Mack EON, MB239.51, Prosche C40, et cetera. The conventionals do not and can not.

BTW I'm kinda curious what you conventional oil-loving guys run if you buy a VW that requires 507 (synthetic) or GM that requires dexos (synthetic or blend). Do you just ignore those specs and run conventional anyway?


Edited by blackman777 (01/22/13 11:12 PM)

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#2880996 - 01/22/13 11:24 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11182
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: blackman777
BTW I'm kinda curious what you conventional oil-loving guys run if you buy a VW that requires 507 (synthetic) or GM that requires dexos (synthetic or blend). Do you just ignore those specs and run conventional anyway?


Rationalization can be false logic. What difference does $6 or $8 extra to run synthetic? It's an extra $6 or $8, period. Sure, it's 1% of operating costs, and probably even substantially less than that. Big businesses routinely make changes to save 1% of operating costs. Automakers make changes to save less than 1% in fuel consumption. Now, if spending an extra 1% in operating costs gave me some tangible benefit, such as increased resale value, or some guarantee of longer engine life, then I would see no problem with that. If I show a hundred thousand miles worth of service records all with Mobil 1 at 3,000 miles, I'm just as likely to run into an M1 hater as I am into someone who appreciates my "fastidious" maintenance. Alternatively, I'm not likely to keep a vehicle long enough to notice, anyhow. When I have, as in the taxi fleet, conventional at 6,000 mile OCIs brought many engines into many hundreds of thousands of miles each.

Now, if I buy a German car or a GM requiring a proprietary spec, I'd run the specified oil at the specified interval. Incidentally, when I had my old Audi 200 Turbo, I did occasionally run a synthetic 5w-40 or 0w-40. It eliminated the need for seasonal viscosity switch, which is a tangible benefit of a synthetic oil in certain applications.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2881007 - 01/22/13 11:51 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
crazyoildude Offline


Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 5269
Loc: new jersey
i Don't use synthetics in anything except my moms 2004 mint Mercury Grand Marquis with 49,000 miles on it that gets 5w20 qsud once a year. I use dino in everything else and get very high mileage out of everything. I do believe that most synthetics flow better in the cold but i also believe they are very close to the dino. Most regular syns have the same ratings as the dino.. Years ago before that lawsuit dino and synthetic were different synthetic was made in a lab and dino was from the ground now its different most times.

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#2881031 - 01/23/13 12:35 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
wrcsixeight Offline


Registered: 10/15/10
Posts: 1019
Loc: california
I first tried Synthetic, because it was on special for 1$ more than the VWB or GTX I was using.

Same filter as always, but no more lifter ticking on startup.

I'll save the 10$ extra initial cost somewhere else without guilt.

I certainly do not need M1 0w-40 in my LA-318, but man o man is the engine silky smooth running it, compared to m1 10w-40hm and TDT 5w-40. Been Dino free for 5+ years now, not going back.

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#2881175 - 01/23/13 08:11 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
KrisZ Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4253
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Blackman777, if it's not such a big deal then why not use $20/qt oil? After all the difference would be 2% instead of 1%.
You’re not going to answer because you know that your logic is flawed and that there is a point where cost will outweigh the benefit. The trick is that this point will be different for everybody.

I don't see any benefit to go to group III synthetics in my current rides just as you don't see any benefit to go to PAO. What's so hard to grasp?

And if I had a VW, or Porsche or BMW or any other car that would require special spec oil (notice it's always a special spec, not synthetic or dino), I would make sure that the oil used meets the spec, regardless what base oil it's made from.
_________________________
2006 Mazda3 2.0 - 190,000 Km
2003 Ford Focus ZX5 2.0 Zetec - 160,000Km
Both on good old dino juice smile

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#2881184 - 01/23/13 08:23 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: KrisZ]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Blackman777, if it's not such a big deal then why not use $20/qt oil? After all the difference would be 2% instead of 1%. You’re not going to answer because you know that your logic is flawed

Most expensive streetcar oil I've seen is Amsoil at $10, and yes I would run that if VW or GM specified it as the "preferred" oil that passes their minimum specifications. It just happens it isn't necessary because the preferred oil is synthetic or synthetic blend, and not that expensive ($5 to $6).

And yes synth has been shown to be better for some engines like Toyota's sludgemonster (1FMZE?) and Honda's Pilot engine (with cylinder deactivation). The conventional oil just doesn't survive.

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#2881241 - 01/23/13 09:16 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
SlipperyPete Offline


Registered: 09/20/12
Posts: 297
Loc: Missouri (MO)
I think this all comes down to perceived value. If I consider my costs for oil changes over the course of 15k miles, it is a wash money wise. If I use MS5K from Walmart I need three jugs and a Fram Ultra at a cost of $50.88. I could alternatively use two jugs of QSUD and a Fram Ultra at a cost of $50.91. That is a three cent difference, I save the time involved in the extra dino oil change, and I consume 1/3 less oil. I doubt there is any significant difference in the performance of either oil at these OCI's, so I consider the QSUD a better value.

The cost difference between more premium oils are $8.03 for PP, $12.03 for CET, and $14.03 for PU. These are based on oil prices at my local Walmart. Since 15K covers me for about a year, I don't consider an annual difference of less than $15.00 to be any big deal.

Of course, if someone else approached the situation with different priorities and concluded dino was the way to go, I really couldn't come up with a good argument against that either.

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#2881861 - 01/23/13 07:22 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11182
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: blackman777
And yes synth has been shown to be better for some engines like Toyota's sludgemonster (1FMZE?) and Honda's Pilot engine (with cylinder deactivation). The conventional oil just doesn't survive.


That's absolutely true. There are certain application where one would think a conventional is sufficient for the specified OCI, but things don't work out as planned.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2882083 - 01/23/13 10:04 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
gregoron Offline


Registered: 11/08/12
Posts: 480
Loc: Hawaii
Why am I not using synthetic when I know it's spec's for my car and it's better than dino?

1. My VW has a no fuss engine that could run on olive oil,
2. It burns a little bit of oil, but the dino I'm using now seems to have solved that,
3. Why pay extra when I'm getting enough already.
_________________________
2000 VW Jetta GL 2.0, MT, 130k miles
Castrol Edge 0W-40 (5k miles OCI)
OEM Oil Filter (10k miles CI)

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#2882107 - 01/23/13 10:24 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: KCJeep]
Tuberocity Offline


Registered: 01/20/13
Posts: 5
Loc: California
Though I do most all repairs on my vehicle, and am mechanically inclined, I hate to change the oil; therefore, I don't often change it as needed, and will go 10k on dino, not good. With that in mind (there are a lot of drivers with this same offense) Synthetic & a very good filter are a no brainer!

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#2882129 - 01/23/13 10:51 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4828
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
in my own case I can provide some facts about the benefits and enhanced economics of using a synthetic engine lubricant over both mineral and semi-synthetic lubricants in an Interstate Trucking operation in Australia

Manufacturer’s Recommended OCI = 15kkms. Annual utilisation = 225kkms (140k miles)

Maximum with a mineral lubricant = 28kkms (condemnation points = increased viscosity, low TBN)

Cost of 40ltr = $80 ($2ltr)
Avg topup rate 1ltr/2kkms = $28
Filters = $60
Labour = $140
Downtime = $115
Total at OC = $423
Cost = .015c/km

Annual = $3375

Maximum with semi-synthetic = 38kkms (condemnation point = increased viscosity, low TBN)

Cost of 40ltr = $112 ($2.8ltr)
Avg topup rate = 1ltr/3kkms = $34
Filters = $60
Labour = $140
Downtime = $115
Total at OC = $461
Cost = .012c/km

Annual = $2700

Maximum with synthetic = 45kkms (main condemnation point = max soot level 3%)
Cost of 40ltr = $200 ($5ltr)
Avg topup rate = 1ltr/6kkms = $37
Filters = $60
Labour = $140
Downtime + $115
Total at OC = $552
Cost = .012c/km

Annual = $2700

SUMMARY
The semi synthetic lubricant had a maximum average OCI of around 65kkms when viscosity issues took effect and it had a much lower soot loading tolerance (3%)

The ability of the synthetic lubricant to go out to an average 90kkms OCI produced the substantially favourable economics required. One reason was the ability of the synthetic to retain viscosity within allowable limits, retain TBN and to be able to handle much higher soot loadings of 5% with ease.

Average achieved with synthetic = 90kkms (main condemnation points = Fe and soot)
(Filtration enhancements used)
Cost of 40ltr = $200 ($5ltr)
Avg topup rate = 1ltr/6kkms = $75
Filters = $60
Labour = $140
Downtime + $115
Total at OC = $590
Cost = .006c/km

Annual = $1350

The synthetic lubricant produced a fuel economy benefit too. This was most evident during the substantial (30 minutes) warm up phase and during idling. The savings were estimated at around 0.5%. This translated into around $2000 per truck per annum (around 128k ltrs used per annum)

Economic advantage = $3375-$1350 = Savings of $2025. Add Fuel saving of $2000.

Therefore a total savings of $4025, over say 10 trucks = $40250.

Factor in the lessor downtime from an operational perspective and much less Driver disruption and the savings are very real indeed!

So in this case the Fleet’s economics were well enhanced by using a synthtetic lubricant
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#2882157 - 01/23/13 11:26 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Doug Hillary]
DragRace Offline


Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 2327
Loc: 1/4 Mile Track
Thanks for posting this up Doug. Just another case where synthetic pays off for a large fleet of vehicles.

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#2882197 - 01/24/13 12:22 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Doug Hillary]
Art_Vandelay Offline


Registered: 11/30/08
Posts: 1339
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
in my own case I can provide some facts about the benefits and enhanced economics of using a synthetic engine lubricant over both mineral and semi-synthetic lubricants in an Interstate Trucking operation in Australia



Doug,

Looking at the condemnation points in your examples synthetic provides its economic benefit through greater viscosity stability and extended TBN retention. Thus allowing it to remain in service for a longer period of time.
In the case of gasoline powered passenger cars, where would you project their condemnation point to be in relation to a conventional? In other words would the service life of synthetic be 50%, 100%, 150%...etc. greater than conventional?
_________________________
It all started when I decided to get my oil analyzed instead of my head examined...

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#2882208 - 01/24/13 12:43 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Doug Hillary]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7102
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: gregoron
Why am I not using synthetic when I know it's spec's for my car and it's better than dino?

1. My VW has a no fuss engine that could run on olive oil,
2. It burns a little bit of oil, but the dino I'm using now seems to have solved that,
3. Why pay extra when I'm getting enough already.


I agree. It's like carrying a brick in the back of a 1 ton truck. Overkill in some applications. In others it make fiscal sense such as ..........

quote=Doug Hillary]Hi,
in my own case I can provide some facts about the benefits and enhanced economics of using a synthetic engine lubricant over both mineral and semi-synthetic lubricants in an Interstate Trucking operation in Australia

Manufacturer’s Recommended OCI = 15kkms. Annual utilisation = 225kkms (140k miles)

Maximum with a mineral lubricant = 28kkms (condemnation points = increased viscosity, low TBN)

Cost of 40ltr = $80 ($2ltr)
Avg topup rate 1ltr/2kkms = $28
Filters = $60
Labour = $140
Downtime = $115
Total at OC = $423
Cost = .015c/km

Annual = $3375

Maximum with semi-synthetic = 38kkms (condemnation point = increased viscosity, low TBN)

Cost of 40ltr = $112 ($2.8ltr)
Avg topup rate = 1ltr/3kkms = $34
Filters = $60
Labour = $140
Downtime = $115
Total at OC = $461
Cost = .012c/km

Annual = $2700

Maximum with synthetic = 45kkms (main condemnation point = max soot level 3%)
Cost of 40ltr = $200 ($5ltr)
Avg topup rate = 1ltr/6kkms = $37
Filters = $60
Labour = $140
Downtime + $115
Total at OC = $552
Cost = .012c/km

Annual = $2700

SUMMARY
The semi synthetic lubricant had a maximum average OCI of around 65kkms when viscosity issues took effect and it had a much lower soot loading tolerance (3%)

The ability of the synthetic lubricant to go out to an average 90kkms OCI produced the substantially favourable economics required. One reason was the ability of the synthetic to retain viscosity within allowable limits, retain TBN and to be able to handle much higher soot loadings of 5% with ease.

Average achieved with synthetic = 90kkms (main condemnation points = Fe and soot)
(Filtration enhancements used)
Cost of 40ltr = $200 ($5ltr)
Avg topup rate = 1ltr/6kkms = $75
Filters = $60
Labour = $140
Downtime + $115
Total at OC = $590
Cost = .006c/km

Annual = $1350

The synthetic lubricant produced a fuel economy benefit too. This was most evident during the substantial (30 minutes) warm up phase and during idling. The savings were estimated at around 0.5%. This translated into around $2000 per truck per annum (around 128k ltrs used per annum)

Economic advantage = $3375-$1350 = Savings of $2025. Add Fuel saving of $2000.

Therefore a total savings of $4025, over say 10 trucks = $40250.

Factor in the lessor downtime from an operational perspective and much less Driver disruption and the savings are very real indeed!

So in this case the Fleet’s economics were well enhanced by using a synthtetic lubricant
[/quote]
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#2882245 - 01/24/13 04:50 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Capa Offline


Registered: 01/04/10
Posts: 1207
Loc: Oklahoma
Great info., Doug. As always, thanks.

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#2882389 - 01/24/13 08:23 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
ottotheclown Offline


Registered: 06/21/09
Posts: 2040
Loc: new york
Ok Ok bought a Subaru Forester 2012. Now the dealer Grand Prix in Hicksville says I need to change the synthetic oil every 5k. Ok but they give you a free oilchange if you do factory maitenance like a cabin filter for a special $89 . What a deal!! The cost of a oil change is or was $70. I got a free oil change because they are free for the first year, but the sheet had oil change 81$ value. 81 dollars for a oil change every 5k??? This does not include dinner. Now with the waranty do I have a choice?? Ofcourse I do but keep in mind I am sure the Subaru can run just as well on dino every 5k. But why did they change????? Do you think it has to do with making even more money then the stealers already do at cabin filters on special $89. I guess it is that expensive because of the labor putting in the cabin filter!!Mongo has trouble putting in filter duh!

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#2882734 - 01/24/13 02:09 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Art_Vandelay]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4828
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
Art_Vandelay - It can only really be determined by a trended UOA programme.

However, going by the Euro Manufacturer's OCI experience over the last couple of decades I would suggest around 50% for modern synthetic and semi-synthetic lubricants

That said, todays API and ACEA rated mineral lubricants are great performers when used according to their specification and in their intended application


Edited by Doug Hillary (01/24/13 02:10 PM)
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#2883134 - 01/24/13 08:37 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Doug Hillary]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11182
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
So in this case the Fleet’s economics were well enhanced by using a synthtetic lubricant


Stop making so much sense, Doug. Solid data has no place in the battle. Or at least tell us you sleep better at night knowing you use Delvac 1. wink
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2883184 - 01/24/13 09:20 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Garak]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4828
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
Garak - It's in my Cappucinos too...........
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#2883284 - 01/25/13 04:03 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Doug Hillary]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11182
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
I prefer a bit of sugar in mine, Doug. But hey, whatever gets the colour right. Does natural sugar and Delvac 1 create a synthetic blend, or should I use aspartame? wink I know, I know.... We don't get enough interesting little vehicles here. When a Kei car or a little truck gets imported, they want a fortune for the darned things.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2884054 - 01/25/13 06:05 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Doug Hillary]
Art_Vandelay Offline


Registered: 11/30/08
Posts: 1339
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Art_Vandelay - It can only really be determined by a trended UOA programme.

However, going by the Euro Manufacturer's OCI experience over the last couple of decades I would suggest around 50% for modern synthetic and semi-synthetic lubricants

That said, todays API and ACEA rated mineral lubricants are great performers when used according to their specification and in their intended application


Modern mineral is remarkably good. No doubt. We're very lucky, here in the U.S., with regard to pricing. It only costs another $15 a year (15,000 miles) to run synthetic over dino. So how can we not love it?
_________________________
It all started when I decided to get my oil analyzed instead of my head examined...

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#2884367 - 01/26/13 12:11 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
RamFan Offline


Registered: 05/09/10
Posts: 1556
Loc: Illinois, U.S.A
We all know that at -0* Synthetic is the way to go, I just wish there was some real data that could be used as a comparison between Synthetic and Conventional at say 20-40*. I think having that information could answer just how much (if any) benefit there is for the general public.
_________________________
06 Monte Carlo LT
+3.9l V6 - 147k - Havoline HM 5w30 - Security - OLM
04 Ram 1500 SLT
+5.7l V8 - 160k - SynPower 5w30 - Fram TG - 5k/3mo

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#2886043 - 01/27/13 05:41 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: aquariuscsm]
LT4 Vette Offline


Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 12247
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Besides saving money and knowing the job was done right,I find working on my car to be therapeutic in a sense. I enjoy getting outside and working on my car. Whenever I change the oil,I look over everything,clean the undercarriage,and just enjoy taking care of my car the best I can.

+ 1000000000000

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#2891741 - 02/01/13 05:04 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: LT4 Vette]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
"I'd rather read a technical journal." - Mr. Scott.

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#2891760 - 02/01/13 05:20 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Garak]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Why the gas numbers being put in?


You know the reason, Bill. wink An extra $10 for synthetic over conventional isn't a big deal compared to $1000 a year in gas, right?

(shrug). Right! Why should I get in a tizzy spending $8 extra for Mobil 1 versus Mobil 5000, when I'm already burning almost $1000 out of the fuel tank? It seems silly for just one percent savings. The way that *I* save costs is by not blowing it on ~80 a month cable or ~50 a month cellphone.

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#2891865 - 02/01/13 07:08 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12782
Loc: UT
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Why the gas numbers being put in?


You know the reason, Bill. wink An extra $10 for synthetic over conventional isn't a big deal compared to $1000 a year in gas, right?

(shrug). Right! Why should I get in a tizzy spending $8 extra for Mobil 1 versus Mobil 5000, when I'm already burning almost $1000 out of the fuel tank? It seems silly for just one percent savings. The way that *I* save costs is by not blowing it on ~80 a month cable or ~50 a month cellphone.



(I know I said was done but to answer such dumb statements I can not pass up) smirk

Amazing how you have to justify wasting $$ that will do NO good in the end run.

So instead of sticking on point you have to bring in gas and cable bills/cell phones...

Good job! bop

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#2891961 - 02/01/13 08:16 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
electrolover Offline


Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 3192
Loc: TEXAS
There used to be a lot of uoas of oils like trop artic and formula shell with 7k+.
Old school BITOGERs know how to get their money's worth!
_________________________
2004 F150 5.4 160k-Castrol TXT 5/40, Distance+ 3410-KREEN
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#2891965 - 02/01/13 08:20 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
SlipperyPete Offline


Registered: 09/20/12
Posts: 297
Loc: Missouri (MO)
Didn't GM used to have their OLM's set to get their money's worth until they stretched a bunch of timing chains? Would that sort of damage show up in a UOA?

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#2892152 - 02/02/13 01:44 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: gregoron]
gregoron Offline


Registered: 11/08/12
Posts: 480
Loc: Hawaii
Originally Posted By: gregoron
Why am I not using synthetic when I know it's spec's for my car and it's better than dino?

1. My VW has a no fuss engine that could run on olive oil,
2. It burns a little bit of oil, but the dino I'm using now seems to have solved that,
3. Why pay extra when I'm getting enough already.


I'm contradicting myself as I just purchased 6 qts of synthetic oil for my next oil change. Why? The price is cheap ($32) and I would like to stick to two DIY OCI's every year if I'm now averaging 16k miles per year due a recent job promotion.
_________________________
2000 VW Jetta GL 2.0, MT, 130k miles
Castrol Edge 0W-40 (5k miles OCI)
OEM Oil Filter (10k miles CI)

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#2892161 - 02/02/13 02:12 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Why should I get in a tizzy spending $8 extra for Mobil 1 versus Mobil 5000, when I'm already burning almost $1000 out of the fuel tank? It seems silly for just one percent savings. The way that *I* save costs is by not blowing it on ~80 a month cable or ~50 a month cellphone.
(I know I said was done but to answer such dumb statements I can not pass up) smirk Amazing how you have to justify wasting $$ that will do NO good in the end run.

I think natural/dino oils are junk past 3000 miles (they breakdown and coat the engine with sludge), so I don't consider the extra money on synthoil a waste or "no good".

And yes the other expenses are relevant. If you're spending $10,000 on rent and cable TV and cellphone and gasoline burning in the engine, who gives a flying sht about $10 for synthoil? Not me. Benjamin Franklin had a saying about being penny wise & dollar foolsih. You're all upset about wasting $10 on synthoil and labeling me as "dumb", but then blow thousands on other junk (dumb)

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#2892178 - 02/02/13 02:56 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
gregoron Offline


Registered: 11/08/12
Posts: 480
Loc: Hawaii
"I think natural/dino oils are junk past 3000 miles (they breakdown and coat the engine with sludge), so I don't consider the extra money on synthoil a waste or "no good"."

I disagree with this provocative statement. I have yet to see sludge in my engine with 4 - 5k OCI on good quality dino. There is a place for synthetic, but it's not due to "junk" dino oil sludging engines at 3,000 OCI. I'd suggest doing more reading here at BITOG than posting.
_________________________
2000 VW Jetta GL 2.0, MT, 130k miles
Castrol Edge 0W-40 (5k miles OCI)
OEM Oil Filter (10k miles CI)

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#2892205 - 02/02/13 05:43 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14561
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: blackman777

I think natural/dino oils are junk past 3000 miles (they breakdown and coat the engine with sludge), so I don't consider the extra money on synthoil a waste or "no good".


Just flatly not true at all. Someone needs to do some research. You just can't get away with these completely unsupported statements around here.
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#2892251 - 02/02/13 07:19 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
electrolover Offline


Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 3192
Loc: TEXAS
Originally Posted By: blackman777

I think natural/dino oils are junk past 3000 miles (they breakdown and coat the engine with sludge), so I don't consider the extra money on synthoil a waste or "no good".



Congratulations you have dethroned Kelsoe and you are now the king
duh
_________________________
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#2892254 - 02/02/13 07:31 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
aquariuscsm Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 9592
Loc: South Texas,USA
I just don`t see how a grp III can be better than a dino when it is a dino. Pao or ester,that`s when I can see where it may matter if a synth is truly needed.
_________________________
1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
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Mobil 1 ATF
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#2892300 - 02/02/13 08:19 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
shell_user Offline


Registered: 09/08/12
Posts: 949
Loc: U.S.A.
I guess my 350 engine in my 91' chevy truck is full of sludge using QS for like 40k in it eh? Conventional oils in THIS DAY AND AGE can go to 4-5k, then UOA it to see how things are.

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#2892455 - 02/02/13 10:34 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Hyde244 Offline


Registered: 12/29/12
Posts: 647
Loc: Ohio
Synthetic is best used under extreme service conditions (e.g. towing), or long OCIs of 10k miles or more. Locations of extreme heat (Arizona) and extreme cold (Northwest Territory, Canada) may also see benefits from synthetic over dino.

Anything short of that - dino will perform just fine.

End thread.
_________________________
2007 Ford Focus ZX4 SES - 2.0L Duratec | 4F27E Auto | 82,000 miles
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#2892547 - 02/02/13 12:28 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
shell_user Offline


Registered: 09/08/12
Posts: 949
Loc: U.S.A.
Dino would be fine also as stated above.

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#2892549 - 02/02/13 12:30 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Hyde244]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29114
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
Synthetic is best used under extreme service conditions (e.g. towing), or long OCIs of 10k miles or more. Locations of extreme heat (Arizona) and extreme cold (Northwest Territory, Canada) may also see benefits from synthetic over dino.

Anything short of that - dino will perform just fine.

End thread.


Agree. You left out turbo and high performance engines though. cheers
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#2892577 - 02/02/13 12:49 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
doitmyself Offline


Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4701
Loc: MI
Over my many years here at BITOG, I have seen some who imply that engine seals do better on dino oil compared to synthetic.

I have read recommendations that once a seal problem is resolved, it is best to stick with dino oil.

My question is different than "synthetic oil caused my engine to leak". I am asking if, over the long haul (200K +)seals stay happier with dino vs. synthetic?

Doug? Anyone with high mileage synthetic only use have input?

Or, is this another myth. Thank you.

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#2892737 - 02/02/13 02:56 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: doitmyself]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4828
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
doitmyself - Yes, synthetic lubricants do extend drive line seal life.

Reasearch done in the 1990s (Eaton) showed an amazing increase in seal (and bearing) life. In my own practical experience the Eaton results were well and truely confirmed

The latest crop of conforming mineral lubricants are however catching up using a much better additive as technologies allow. I always use synthetic drive line lubricants

And changing drive line components to a synthetic from a mineral can indeed cause leaks!

Engine cleanliness from new is the key to minimising leaks there. Changing from an earlier specification lubricant to a later one may cause seepage issues as many have stated. If the seepage is from gaskets then you've got to fix them!






Edited by Doug Hillary (02/02/13 02:58 PM)
Edit Reason: Accuracy
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#2892831 - 02/02/13 04:22 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: gregoron]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: gregoron
"I think natural/dino oils are junk past 3000 miles (they breakdown and coat the engine with sludge), so I don't consider the extra money on synthoil a waste or 'no good"\'."

I disagree with this provocative statement. I have yet to see sludge in my engine with 4 - 5k OCI on good quality dino.

The conventional oil could be sludging the engine & never appear on a UOA. And also you've taken my sentence out of context. I was defending myself from the synthoil-haters who think I am "wasting my money" by using Mobil 1 instead of Mobil 5000.



Edited by blackman777 (02/02/13 04:31 PM)

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#2892833 - 02/02/13 04:24 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25968
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: gregoron
"I think natural/dino oils are junk past 3000 miles (they breakdown and coat the engine with sludge), so I don't consider the extra money on synthoil a waste or 'no good"\'."

I disagree with this provocative statement. I have yet to see sludge in my engine with 4 - 5k OCI on good quality dino.

The conventional oil culd be sludging the engine & never appear on a UOA.


Maybe he's had a valve cover off? He didn't say he was looking for sludge with a UOA, he said he didn't see sludge in his engine. I took his statement as literal, as in, with his eyes he didn't see it.
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#2892840 - 02/02/13 04:27 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Garak]
ottotheclown Offline


Registered: 06/21/09
Posts: 2040
Loc: new york
No maybe 10k in a stop and go situation would be dumb in a rual h'way situation it is a piece of cake!!Gotta know how and why>In a stop and go 5k might make syn a waste. cool
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Why the gas numbers being put in?


You know the reason, Bill. wink An extra $10 for synthetic over conventional isn't a big deal compared to $1000 a year in gas, or a $40000 car, right?

It's rationalization. I have no problem with synthetics, have used them, and will use them again. However, they're not going to make my vehicle last forever. They're not going to double my horsepower. They won't cut my gas bills in half. There are advantages, and a good ROI is possible, but difficult.

If I were as brave or as smart as tig1, I'd be doing exactly what he's doing - 10,000 miles on M1 as per their warranty coverage versus 3,750 miles on PYB per Infiniti's warranty. And I would have adequate ROI, and that's without any UOAs.

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#2892847 - 02/02/13 04:32 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
ottotheclown Offline


Registered: 06/21/09
Posts: 2040
Loc: new york
Also syn are now showing up at every place you shop. Fram was selling a Syn so are we talking about a quality dino like PYB with 200+moly or a Peak syn with nothing add pack?

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#2892860 - 02/02/13 04:40 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Why the gas numbers being put in?
You know the reason, Bill. wink An extra $10 for synthetic over conventional isn't a big deal compared to $1000 a year in gas, right?

(shrug). Right! Why should I get in a tizzy spending $8 extra for Mobil 1 versus Mobil 5000, when I'm already burning almost $1000 out of the fuel tank? It seems silly for just one percent savings. The way that *I* save costs is by not blowing it on ~80 a month cable or ~50 a month cellphone.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
(I know I said was done but to answer such dumb statements I can not pass up) smirk Amazing how you have to justify wasting $$ that will do NO good in the end run. So instead of sticking on point you have to bring in gas and cable bills/cell phones... Good job!
bop
Please don't call me dumb and hitting me over the head.

If I want to use Mobil 1 instead of Mobil 5000 conventional, that is MY choice, and I don't have to justify it to you or President George "duh" Bush or the IRS or Nancy Pelosi or anybody else. It is MY money coming from MY wallet and MY paycheck. The extra 6 to 8 dollars every 3-4 months is literally nothing for me


Edited by blackman777 (02/02/13 04:49 PM)

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#2892866 - 02/02/13 04:51 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
shell_user Offline


Registered: 09/08/12
Posts: 949
Loc: U.S.A.
Please settle down, as we dont want this thread to get locked because someone brought politics into the talk.

thank you

adam

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#2892899 - 02/02/13 05:22 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
cb_13 Offline


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 353
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Why the gas numbers being put in?
You know the reason, Bill. wink An extra $10 for synthetic over conventional isn't a big deal compared to $1000 a year in gas, right?

(shrug). Right! Why should I get in a tizzy spending $8 extra for Mobil 1 versus Mobil 5000, when I'm already burning almost $1000 out of the fuel tank? It seems silly for just one percent savings. The way that *I* save costs is by not blowing it on ~80 a month cable or ~50 a month cellphone.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
(I know I said was done but to answer such dumb statements I can not pass up) smirk Amazing how you have to justify wasting $$ that will do NO good in the end run. So instead of sticking on point you have to bring in gas and cable bills/cell phones... Good job!
bop
Please don't call me dumb and hitting me over the head.

If I want to use Mobil 1 instead of Mobil 5000 conventional, that is MY choice, and I don't have to justify it to you or President George "duh" Bush or the IRS or Nancy Pelosi or anybody else. It is MY money coming from MY wallet and MY paycheck. The extra 6 to 8 dollars every 3-4 months is literally nothing for me

Then why do you keep trying to justify it to everyone in this thread? By the way I run 5k intervals on conventional, had the engine apart to replace timing components. No sludge. Actually I was surprised just how clean it was. Like I previously said in this thread I will use what the manufacturer specifies for my vehicle. If my truck required synthetic I would have no problem using it and I have no problem with you using it. Oh and I do a decent amount of towing and hauling too on my 5k mile intervals.

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#2893039 - 02/02/13 07:59 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: cb_13]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Yeah sorry.
I just get a bit annoyed when people start calling me "dumb" over a measly 8 dollars extra on synthoil. I happen to like Mobil 1, and don't see any reason to downgrade to Mobil conventional but apparently people think I'm "dumb" if I don't switch to Mobil 5000.
I apologize for losing my cool





Edited by blackman777 (02/02/13 07:59 PM)

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#2893064 - 02/02/13 08:32 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
shell_user Offline


Registered: 09/08/12
Posts: 949
Loc: U.S.A.
My honest two cents; I have some M1 5W20 mixed with M1 0W40 in my Civic, and I have used a ton of Mobil 1 in the past, no issues whatsoever. I do 10k intervals w/Mobil 1

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#2894311 - 02/03/13 05:29 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: shell_user]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11182
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: shell_user
I guess my 350 engine in my 91' chevy truck is full of sludge using QS for like 40k in it eh?


And the taxis with 6,000 mile OCIs for hundreds of thousands of miles on QS conventional were a real mess, too. wink

@blackman777: I'm certainly not belittling your choice. You are free to do with your money as you see fit, and I'd rather see you "waste" M1 on a short OCI than use conventional and never, ever change it. The point is, however, that a synthetic is not needed for conservative OCIs on a normal application. If it specs syn, sure. Heck, if you like syn, sure, that's fine, too. But, using M1 over Mobil conventional over equivalent, normal OCIs isn't going to change a 200,000 mile engine lifespan into a 400,000 mile engine lifespan. It won't make a vehicle that can hardly start when plugged in in the winter to one that's going to start unaided in -40, either.

The desire to use synthetic does not require the denigration of conventionals or a statement that the $8 (or whatever) premium for synthetic is insignificant in comparison to the total cost of ownership. Synthetic lubricants are fantastic and I don't think anyone is claiming they aren't. Necessary and fantastic are not synonyms, though.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2894718 - 02/04/13 12:25 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Garak]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: Garak
I'm certainly not belittling your choice. You are free to do with your money as you see fit, and I'd rather see you "waste" M1 on a short OCI than use conventional and never, ever change it. The point is, however, that a synthetic is not needed for conservative OCIs on a normal application. If it specs syn, sure. Heck, if you like syn, sure, that's fine, too.

Okay let's suppose I switched from my current 10,000 miles on Mobil 1 to 10,000 miles on Mobil 5000 conventional. And it starts sludging the internals. How would I spot that on a UOA so I know "this isn't working" and can shorten intervals? (Or go back to M1.)

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#2894872 - 02/04/13 07:30 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: blackman777]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11182
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Good question. While Dave Newton has shown that 10,000 miles and more is certainly possible on conventional under the right circumstances, I (and likely Dave, too) wouldn't recommend just going from 10,000 on M1 to 10,000 on Mobil conventional. Heck, some cars chew through synthetic on shorter intervals than that, let alone conventional, and some cars, as you and I are both aware, are speced for synthetic only.

What I'd watch in a Blackstone UOA would be TBN and insolubles, along with fuel dilution. If those aren't acceptable, I'd be concerned about varnish, sludge, or harder deposits. Some other UOAs are more comprehensive and include TAN, oxidation, nitration, and so forth. There are others here who are far more expert at those numbers than I am.

Others have pointed out that sometimes popping the valve cover is useful. Obviously, that's application dependent. On my old Audi, the valve cover gasket job was easier than an air filter. In other vehicles, it's a major chore.

Incidentally, with respect to conventional in my Audi, there were some problems with the factory OCI, at least in my view. It was 12,500 km on severe service, requiring something like API SJ or better, with no synthetic requirement. The previous owner likely followed that religiously, and had almost all city miles. There was varnish and some coking, but no sludge. I posted pics here a long time ago. With the relatively small sump (4.5 L versus current, larger Audi sumps) and no synthetic requirement with such a long OCI, things weren't as clean as they could have been. I've certainly seen much better results with conventional in other applications. There's something to be said for avoiding short trips.

Honestly, 10,000 miles on M1 is a reasonable choice. M1 has a warranty for such mileage, and I wouldn't consider such usage a waste. My main beef is when people use a high end synthetic for 3,000 to 5,000 miles in a vehicle that doesn't require synthetic and they think they're doing their vehicle a huge favour.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2894881 - 02/04/13 07:39 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Garak]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7102
Loc: Saskatoon canada


Honestly, 10,000 miles on M1 is a reasonable choice. M1 has a warranty for such mileage, and I wouldn't consider such usage a waste. My main beef is when people use a high end synthetic for 3,000 to 5,000 miles in a vehicle that doesn't require synthetic and they think they're doing their vehicle a huge favour.
[/quote]

Agreed. What is it called? Peace of mind or some absurdity.
Synthetic last longer,it doesn't some magic elixir that eliminates wear. It protects for longer.
Tig has proven in his application that M1 is fine for 10000 mile intervals. Some engines tear up oil but his don't,hence his interval.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
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#2894890 - 02/04/13 07:46 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Garak]
KrisZ Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4253
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Garak
My main beef is when people use a high end synthetic for 3,000 to 5,000 miles in a vehicle that doesn't require synthetic and they think they're doing their vehicle a huge favour.


Yep, I'm with you on that one.
_________________________
2006 Mazda3 2.0 - 190,000 Km
2003 Ford Focus ZX5 2.0 Zetec - 160,000Km
Both on good old dino juice smile

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#2894903 - 02/04/13 07:56 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Clevy]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 9776
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Clevy


Honestly, 10,000 miles on M1 is a reasonable choice. M1 has a warranty for such mileage, and I wouldn't consider such usage a waste. My main beef is when people use a high end synthetic for 3,000 to 5,000 miles in a vehicle that doesn't require synthetic and they think they're doing their vehicle a huge favour.


Agreed. What is it called? Peace of mind or some absurdity.
Synthetic last longer,it doesn't some magic elixir that eliminates wear. It protects for longer.
Tig has proven in his application that M1 is fine for 10000 mile intervals. Some engines tear up oil but his don't,hence his interval.
[/quote]

As to the point of 10K OCIs. 10K has performed very well for me in all kinds of engines for the last 35 years. Even carbureted engine of the 70s, to 2.0 diesel engines of the 80s, to the modern fuel inj. engines we have today. Even if we only do 5K OCIs(a waste in my view)there is still engine benifits to a quality synthetic. Especially in extreme cold or hot temps.
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 141,000 miles
M1 0-20
2007 Ford Focus 127,000 miles
M1 0-20
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF
M1 10-30 in all OPE

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#2894920 - 02/04/13 08:08 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: tig1]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12782
Loc: UT
Originally Posted By: tig1
Even if we only do 5K OCIs(a waste in my view)there is still engine benifits to a quality synthetic. Especially in extreme cold or hot temps.


Not true.

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#2894923 - 02/04/13 08:10 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Hyde244 Offline


Registered: 12/29/12
Posts: 647
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: tig1
As to the point of 10K OCIs. 10K has performed very well for me in all kinds of engines for the last 35 years. Even carbureted engine of the 70s, to 2.0 diesel engines of the 80s, to the modern fuel inj. engines we have today. Even if we only do 5K OCIs(a waste in my view)there is still engine benifits to a quality synthetic. Especially in extreme cold or hot temps.


+1

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: tig1
Even if we only do 5K OCIs(a waste in my view)there is still engine benifits to a quality synthetic. Especially in extreme cold or hot temps.


Not true.



I find it difficult to say "not true" when there are mountains of evidence, data sheets, and reports proving synthetic operates better at start-up in cold and hot.



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Hyde244 (02/04/13 08:14 AM)
_________________________
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#2894936 - 02/04/13 08:23 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12782
Loc: UT
How many of the vehicles out there are running syn? How many over the decades are running syn?

What is the average OCI? How do people get hundreds of thousands of miles on engines with no problems not using syn?

You can post all the "proof in the pudding" but the REAL PROOF is out there.

Maybe all the "proof" is marketing trying to make people FEEL that they NEED syn when in its really want.

If people want to run syn fine but please don't ignore that more vehicles go just fine with normal oils. And some of those would not make it any further using syn.

Bill

PS: Is Mobil serious with that video? LOL Love the music and drama! Oh and they used the wrong oil in the VW... Tisk Tisk


Edited by Bill in Utah (02/04/13 08:30 AM)
Edit Reason: added the ps

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#2894952 - 02/04/13 08:34 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Hyde244 Offline


Registered: 12/29/12
Posts: 647
Loc: Ohio
Of course synthetic oil is not the magic bullet. No oil is.

You can easily take an engine hundreds of thousands of miles on dino oil. You can easily take an engine hundreds of thousands of miles on synthetic.

My 1999 Ford Taurus made it to 275,000 using nothing by Supertech HM and PYB.

There is no doubt that with regular service - you will do just fine with either oil.

However, Synthetic oil has a better flow rate than dino oil. This is why it is recommended for better start-ups, and ability to flow in cold temperatures. That is where synthetic oil has the advantage.
_________________________
2007 Ford Focus ZX4 SES - 2.0L Duratec | 4F27E Auto | 82,000 miles
PU 5w20 | MC 910 | Castrol Mercon V

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#2894968 - 02/04/13 08:50 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Hyde244]
Bill in Utah Offline



Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 12782
Loc: UT
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
Of course synthetic oil is not the magic bullet. No oil is.

You can easily take an engine hundreds of thousands of miles on dino oil. You can easily take an engine hundreds of thousands of miles on synthetic.

My 1999 Ford Taurus made it to 275,000 using nothing by Supertech HM and PYB.

There is no doubt that with regular service - you will do just fine with either oil.

However, Synthetic oil has a better flow rate than dino oil. This is why it is recommended for better start-ups, and ability to flow in cold temperatures. That is where synthetic oil has the advantage.


First of all good job on the Taurus! MY 1999 went 61,000 miles on its first set of Head Gaskets. Then 108,000 it needed them changed again....

Its in the junkyard at a little under 160,000 miles with a blown transmission...

I see plenty of cold weather. Before 1996 all I used was 10w-30 REAL conventional oils in many a vehicle and yet they made it to 200k, 300k and one 1986 to 394,000 miles before it got its ride to the junkyard...

I think we would all agree that today's oils are MUCH better and with NO question that a 5w-20/30 does much better than a 10w-30 of yesterday. But still those vehicles did just fine.

Now I'm not telling people to go out and run 10w-30 but I just crack up with all the posting that syn protects so much better when its 40 degrees outside. And you will get "benefits" with it even at 5k OCIs in an engine that does NOT REQUIRE syn.

And there are very few places where its -40 over night for the whole period of time. Those places also plug in most of the time.

Just my points.

Take care, Bill

PS: I am jealous of your 1999 and its miles. My wife loved ours...

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#2895004 - 02/04/13 09:20 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Garak]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: Garak
Others have pointed out that sometimes popping the valve cover is useful. Obviously, that's application dependent. On my old Audi, the valve cover gasket job was easier than an air filter. In other vehicles, it's a major chore.

Yeah that sounds like too much work. I'll just work an extra 10 minutes at my job, earn the extra $8 that running Mobil 1 costs me, and avoid the danger of a conventional sludging the engine.

BTW I have been online since 1987. I am new to the forum, but I'm not a newbie to forums in general. Heck google still has some of my earliest posts dating back to 1991.

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#2895027 - 02/04/13 09:37 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Bill in Utah]
Hyde244 Offline


Registered: 12/29/12
Posts: 647
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I think we would all agree that today's oils are MUCH better and with NO question that a 5w-20/30 does much better than a 10w-30 of yesterday. But still those vehicles did just fine.

Now I'm not telling people to go out and run 10w-30 but I just crack up with all the posting that syn protects so much better when its 40 degrees outside. And you will get "benefits" with it even at 5k OCIs in an engine that does NOT REQUIRE syn.

And there are very few places where its -40 over night for the whole period of time. Those places also plug in most of the time.

Just my points.

Take care, Bill

PS: I am jealous of your 1999 and its miles. My wife loved ours...
Haha, it was a good car, starter for both my sister and I. Ultimately the rust did it in, but it put up with a lot of abuse.

You are absolutely right; SN oils show a marked improvement across the board. I'd venture a guess that the creation of the API is one of the most significant moves done in the auto industry, as it guarantees a standard quality across oils. And that quality is good!

And there is no doubt that running a synthetic for only 5k OCI is a poor decision. Here in Ohio, the difference in price between a jug of Syn Blend and Synthetic is $7 - use the syn blend (or conventional), save the money, and put it towards a pretty filter (preferably not orange wink ).

It is in this regards that synthetic, for the average driver, is probably best chosen for extended OCIs. Unless you are commuting from the Northwest Territory, admittedly the cold temp startup specs can be thrown out the window. blush

I personally prefer to run Motorcraft every 5k, as it lines up with my tire rotations. It is a quality syn blend (best of both worlds, right?) for $18 a jug, and the oil that Ford will ultimately recommend.

Honestly, the only reason I would ever consider running a full synthetic, for my driving style, is the ability to go to 0w20 which is seemingly not achievable with regular dino and syn blend (though doesn't Toyota have a syn blend 0w20?). I will be trying out Castrol Ti 0w20 next oil change, but will most likely follow that with MC 5w20 afterwards. (especially when an oil change/tire rotation at the local Ford dealership is only $22. Not bad for having a mechanic also look over your car.)


Edited by Hyde244 (02/04/13 09:44 AM)
_________________________
2007 Ford Focus ZX4 SES - 2.0L Duratec | 4F27E Auto | 82,000 miles
PU 5w20 | MC 910 | Castrol Mercon V

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#2895075 - 02/04/13 10:07 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Hyde244]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11182
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
However, Synthetic oil has a better flow rate than dino oil. This is why it is recommended for better start-ups, and ability to flow in cold temperatures. That is where synthetic oil has the advantage.

To make the statement really true and gain the real benefits in cold weather, you have to be talking about grades that are generally only available in synthetics. I'm talking about a 0w-30 versus a 5w-30 or 10w-30, or a 0w-20 versus a 5w-20, or a 0w-40 or 5w-40 versus a 15w-40. That's where you'll see your cold start benefits.

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Yeah that sounds like too much work.

On most vehicles, that's absolutely true. Nonetheless, the dangers of sludging on conventional are marginal at best, assuming one is using an approved lube in the first place and following proper OCIs.

Up here, the $8 more for synthetic simply doesn't fly. The cheapest conventional I've ever seen on rollback recently was $6 a gallon for SuperTech and around $9 to $10 for 5 quarts of VWB and GTX. The cheapest synthetic I've ever seen was a hair under $20 for Napa synthetic, Valvoline synthetic, and PP in five quarts. Regular priced conventional is $25 per jug, and regular synthetic is $45 to $55 per jug, depending upon which level (i.e. M1 vs M1 EP or regular Syntec vs Syntec with Titanium or whatever they call it these days). So, synthetic is double the price, no matter how you slice it, and the difference is even worse if you're comparing single quarts, rollback or regular prices.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2895100 - 02/04/13 10:22 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Garak]
Hyde244 Offline


Registered: 12/29/12
Posts: 647
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
However, Synthetic oil has a better flow rate than dino oil. This is why it is recommended for better start-ups, and ability to flow in cold temperatures. That is where synthetic oil has the advantage.

To make the statement really true and gain the real benefits in cold weather, you have to be talking about grades that are generally only available in synthetics. I'm talking about a 0w-30 versus a 5w-30 or 10w-30, or a 0w-20 versus a 5w-20, or a 0w-40 or 5w-40 versus a 15w-40. That's where you'll see your cold start benefits.
Very true, I got thinking about the ability of 0w weights of synthetic oils that we do not find in dino, and was sure to add that to my last post.

I would imagine moving forward, especially with GF-6 coming up in two years, we will see a concerted push by auto manufacturers to use more 0w and 5w20 to meet CAFE requirements and specs of small, turbo-charged engines. There will be a 0w16 on the shelf within three years - talk about viscosity!
_________________________
2007 Ford Focus ZX4 SES - 2.0L Duratec | 4F27E Auto | 82,000 miles
PU 5w20 | MC 910 | Castrol Mercon V

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#2895168 - 02/04/13 11:22 AM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: buster]
Danno Offline


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 742
Loc: Northern Ontario, Canada
I run synthetic in all my 5 cars, 3 of them driven by 3 sons. 2 weeks ago it was -30F to -35F all week. This week, about -18F all week overnight temps. 100% severe service with short city based trips. Oil changes are done well before 10,000 miles or one year intervals. The few extra $ per oil change is well worth the peace of mind that just in case they did not plug in or if the GFI circuit tripped overnight, that I am doing everything I can with in reason to make sure that car starts and the engine lives a reasonably long life.


Edited by Danno (02/04/13 11:23 AM)

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#2895339 - 02/04/13 01:57 PM Re: Advantages of Synthetic Base Oils [Re: Garak]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: Garak
Up here, the $8 more for synthetic simply doesn't fly. The cheapest conventional I've ever seen on rollback..... around $9 to $10 for 5 quarts of VWB and GTX. The cheapest synthetic I've ever seen was a hair under $20 for Napa synthetic, Valvoline synthetic, and PP in five quarts.

I'm ignoring the Walmart oil and just focusing on the good name-brand oils. That would be about $2/quart difference which would be $8 total for one of my cars (and $6 for the other). So that's how I came-up with my conclusion "it's only 8 more to run synth". That's trivial. I probably lose more money than that in 6 months.

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