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#2837550 - 12/17/12 01:15 AM really remove the upper intake???
Dakota1820 Offline
formerly chevyboy14


Registered: 04/28/11
Posts: 3894
Loc: missouri usa
so doing some research and talking over at the taurus forum the duratec is the popular choice. i started doing some research and you have to remove the intake manifold to replace the rear plugs? ok i am sorry who's genius idea was this? i mean really!!! is there another way or is that it?
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#2837558 - 12/17/12 01:56 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
sasha Offline


Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 205
Loc: pennsylvania
many transverse and some longitude v6 engines are like this. It's a couple bolts and some dry rotted vacuum lines. should not be to much of a hassle.
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#2837559 - 12/17/12 01:59 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
01rangerxl Offline


Registered: 04/08/06
Posts: 7382
Loc: Birmingham, AL
If you want to be a mechanic, better get used to taking off intake manifolds. It's not an uncommon thing on many vehicles.

Uppers are easy since they are usually dry.
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#2837560 - 12/17/12 02:02 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
sasha Offline


Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 205
Loc: pennsylvania
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#2837597 - 12/17/12 05:09 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
Roadkingnc Offline


Registered: 07/16/11
Posts: 610
Loc: NC USA
Really? Its a 5 minute job tops. Then the plugs are staring you in the face.

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#2837600 - 12/17/12 05:17 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
Rick in PA Offline


Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 2165
Loc: Southeastern, PA
It may not be that bad. I have to lift the intake manifold to replace the spark plugs on my PT Cruiser (in-line 4 cylinder). Each runner has a silicon o-ring (no gasket). I've done it twice now. A bit of a nuisance, but do-able.

Try searching the Taurus forums, I'm sure they'll have some detailed posts. I got guidance on changing my spark plugs from PT Cruiser forums.
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#2837604 - 12/17/12 05:35 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
Dakota1820 Offline
formerly chevyboy14


Registered: 04/28/11
Posts: 3894
Loc: missouri usa
I bet its more like an hour to do it. It doesn't look to bad its just very stupid engineering. No reason they couldn't have made it where you didn't have to take the intake off.
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#2837608 - 12/17/12 05:49 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21328
Loc: NY
You might be able to do it by removing the upper and lower wiper cowl on the right/passengers side and get them from there. I helped a buddy do his and that's how I did it. I don't remember the year of the car though, and he sold it a few years back. It might be something worth looking into though. Be prepared to replace the wires they're probably welded to the plugs. HTH
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#2837635 - 12/17/12 06:52 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Rick in PA]
exranger06 Offline


Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 2607
Loc: Guilford, CT
Originally Posted By: Rick in PA
It may not be that bad. I have to lift the intake manifold to replace the spark plugs on my PT Cruiser (in-line 4 cylinder). Each runner has a silicon o-ring (no gasket). I've done it twice now. A bit of a nuisance, but do-able.

+1 I replaced plugs on a PT Cruiser before and removing the intake was really not a big deal at all. It SOUNDS like it would be a huge PITA, but once you take it apart, you realize it's easy and no big deal.
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#2837638 - 12/17/12 06:54 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
itguy08 Offline


Registered: 09/15/11
Posts: 1598
Loc: Central PA
It really isn't that bad of a job to pull the intake. Just get an inch-lbs torque wrench and follw the torque specs and sequence. Most time consuming thing for me when I did the wife's Escape was the EGR tube as it was/is cramped there.

I think I did upper and lower intake gaskets ans plugs on her Escape in a morning (3 hours). That included walking to the Ace hardware store to get the one metrc socket I needed.
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#2837640 - 12/17/12 06:58 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
RogerBacon Offline


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 61
Loc: Ontario
I once owned a Cadillac CTS with the 2.8 V6. It had a vibration at idle that GM either could not or would not fix and one of the suggestions I had was to change the plugs. They would not do this under warranty because of the low mileage, but if I wanted to pay for it, they would be happy to try. The dealership quoted me $500.00 + parts because they had to remove the entire intake system to get to the plugs. It was at this point that I decided that I would never own another Cadillac and sold the car. Roger

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#2837651 - 12/17/12 07:14 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7385
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: chevyboy14
so doing some research and talking over at the taurus forum the duratec is the popular choice. i started doing some research and you have to remove the intake manifold to replace the rear plugs? ok i am sorry who's genius idea was this? i mean really!!! is there another way or is that it?

That's nothing. Try changing the drivers side bank on a hemi. And there are 16 plugs to do too. What a nightmare.
I got quoted 700 from dodge and they were going to supply cheap champion plugs. I got iridiums for less than the stockers however it was a total pain to do and I think I'll pay the atrocious labour cost to have someone else do them next time.
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#2837666 - 12/17/12 07:26 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
eagle23 Offline


Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 419
Loc: Roswell GA
I understand your point, but consider [a] the compactness needed to get the (almost any) V6 under the hood of a FWD car and [b] to most owners, they won't change the plugs in the life of the car while they have it, and it likely won't run any worse for the benign neglect.

I wouldn't make that item a go/no-go decision point on a good Taurus. You'll probably do it once in the time you have the car, too. Plugs going 100k is not a big deal anymore, and when changed out the difference is often imperceptable.

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#2837676 - 12/17/12 07:39 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Roadkingnc]
Spazdog Offline


Registered: 09/06/10
Posts: 5492
Loc: Arlington
Originally Posted By: Roadkingnc
Really? Its a 5 minute job tops. Then the plugs are staring you in the face.


It's not a 5 minute job literally, but it isn't as bad as a Mitsubishi or Hyundai variant of the 6G72. (Chrysler version of same engine has Holley fuel management and a different intake)

I think it's easier than doing the back three on a 3.1 GM.

If you have GearWrenches, the EGR is much easier to deal with. Get a PCV valve before you take the upper intake off. It's a lot easier to do with the intake removed.

Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: Rick in PA
It may not be that bad. I have to lift the intake manifold to replace the spark plugs on my PT Cruiser (in-line 4 cylinder). Each runner has a silicon o-ring (no gasket). I've done it twice now. A bit of a nuisance, but do-able.

+1 I replaced plugs on a PT Cruiser before and removing the intake was really not a big deal at all. It SOUNDS like it would be a huge PITA, but once you take it apart, you realize it's easy and no big deal.


I don't have to remove the intake to do my PT's plugs.
That's gotta' be unique to the PT's with plastic manifolds.
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#2837686 - 12/17/12 07:49 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
SLCraig Offline


Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 5296
Loc: London, ON, Canada
Had to remove my upper intake mani to do the plugs on my VQ35's too. It's not a big deal. You do them pretty much once in the vehicle's life (plats) and you're golden after that.
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#2837712 - 12/17/12 08:16 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Spazdog]
cchase Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 3998
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
I think it's easier than doing the back three on a 3.1 GM.


You don't have to do anything special to access the rear bank on a 3.1.

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#2837714 - 12/17/12 08:16 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: RogerBacon]
GMBoy Offline


Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 6657
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
I once owned a Cadillac CTS with the 2.8 V6. It had a vibration at idle that GM either could not or would not fix and one of the suggestions I had was to change the plugs. They would not do this under warranty because of the low mileage, but if I wanted to pay for it, they would be happy to try. The dealership quoted me $500.00 + parts because they had to remove the entire intake system to get to the plugs. It was at this point that I decided that I would never own another Cadillac and sold the car. Roger



It is NOT a big job and you DO NOT have to remove the intake. I've done SEVERAL tune-ups on these cars and can do it in under an hour. The dealers quote this price because the service manual and labor guide says to remove it. All you do is LOOSEN the intake bolts, lift it up and you can get the coil off and plug out. This was for the 2.8 and 3.6 engines thru 2007. In 2008, the intake was reshaped so no intake removal needed.

It was a STUPID design...they made the intake just slightly cover over 3 of the plugs just enough that there is no room to pull the coil off to get the plug. Good thing its just the upper and no need to replace any gaskets but if you do they are just metal and o-ring style and easy.

I do my CTS tune-ups for $125...dealer locally here charges $450 and pockets lot of cash!

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#2837730 - 12/17/12 08:41 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 8594
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
even my little honda you have to take the IM off and eTB and TB coolant TB and PCV warmer hoses to adjust valves. Silly - moronic even! - on an engine with jam nut valve lash adjustment.
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#2837746 - 12/17/12 08:57 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
Danh Offline


Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 630
Loc: Illinois
Not sure this applies to a Taurus, but don't wish for a front cover leak or a bad alternator if you have 3.0 Duratec in an Escape: the front cover requires removal of the intake manifold, valve covers, engine accessories, and oil pan first ($ 1,700 at a Ford dealer) and a front halfshaft comes off to get at the alternator. Again, brilliant engineering.

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#2837789 - 12/17/12 09:38 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
abycat Offline


Registered: 12/06/10
Posts: 1252
Loc: grande prairie AB
My versa needs to have the lower and upper manifolds removed to get to the plugs
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#2837790 - 12/17/12 09:40 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
TallPaul Offline


Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 12915
Loc: By Detroit
Good thing spark plugs go 50,000 to 100,000 miles these days. So long as one has the upper intake removed see if the PCV valve is down there and replace it. It is on the 4 cylinder Duratec engine that is found in the Focus and Ranger and likely other vehicles. Although, supposedly the dealership will do the first PCV at 60,000 miles for free.

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#2837824 - 12/17/12 10:23 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
JTK Offline


Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 7308
Loc: Buffalo, NY
Yep, the intake plenum has to be removed from Hyundai/Kia 2.7/3.3's to get at the rear 3 coils & plugs. No other way to remove them.

You just have to be sure the gaskets stay intact and don't drop anything in there when shes lifted!

Joel
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#2837842 - 12/17/12 10:39 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
jeepman3071 Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1759
Loc: Storrs, Connecticut
Threads like this make me love my Jeep 4.0L. I can open the hood and easily see all the plugs. On my buddy's 2001 Ford Ranger, the first step to replacing the plugs is "remove passenger side front tire and wheel". LOL
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2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4.0L (147k) - PYB 10w30, Napa Silver 31085, Magnefine trans filter

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#2837907 - 12/17/12 11:39 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6344
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: chevyboy14
so doing some research and talking over at the taurus forum the duratec is the popular choice. i started doing some research and you have to remove the intake manifold to replace the rear plugs? ok i am sorry who's genius idea was this? i mean really!!! is there another way or is that it?


Its very, very common these days, and has been for a number of years. Fortunately most engines that require this have reusable O-rings instead of gaskets on the joint between the upper and lower intakes, and make the job relatively simple by minimizing the stuff you have to disconnect to swing the upper intake out of the way. I've done it a couple of times on the PT Cruiser, and it adds maybe 15-20 minutes to the job. Kinda sad, since plugs would be about a 10 minute job on that engine otherwise. But you have to be fair- if it had the plugs on the side of the head like an old 2-valve engine then the plugs themselves would be harder to get at. So you spend more time on the upper intake, but less on the actual plugs in my case.





Edited by 440Magnum (12/17/12 11:39 AM)
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#2837918 - 12/17/12 11:45 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: 440Magnum]
GMBoy Offline


Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 6657
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: chevyboy14
so doing some research and talking over at the taurus forum the duratec is the popular choice. i started doing some research and you have to remove the intake manifold to replace the rear plugs? ok i am sorry who's genius idea was this? i mean really!!! is there another way or is that it?


Its very, very common these days, and has been for a number of years. Fortunately most engines that require this have reusable O-rings instead of gaskets on the joint between the upper and lower intakes, and make the job relatively simple by minimizing the stuff you have to disconnect to swing the upper intake out of the way. I've done it a couple of times on the PT Cruiser, and it adds maybe 15-20 minutes to the job. Kinda sad, since plugs would be about a 10 minute job on that engine otherwise. But you have to be fair- if it had the plugs on the side of the head like an old 2-valve engine then the plugs themselves would be harder to get at. So you spend more time on the upper intake, but less on the actual plugs in my case.





Yes - those PT cruisers weren't too bad for plug changing. I've done 2 of those, but they weren't Turbos.

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#2838019 - 12/17/12 01:32 PM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
bdcardinal Offline


Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 6608
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
Don't feel bad, I found oil in the spark plug coil area on my Volvo from a leaking PCV flame trap. Have to pull the Intake to get to it as well as the P/S pump, Alternator and AC compressor.
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#2838446 - 12/17/12 07:21 PM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: cchase]
Spazdog Offline


Registered: 09/06/10
Posts: 5492
Loc: Arlington
Originally Posted By: cchase
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
I think it's easier than doing the back three on a 3.1 GM.


You don't have to do anything special to access the rear bank on a 3.1.


Somebody's never done the back three spark plugs on a 3.1 W-body car.

you can either take the alternator off and reach across the back of the engine (my method) or you can follow the manual's instructions and take off the torque strut "dog bones" and rock the engine forward.

N-chassis cars usually require removing the coil pack. The manual calls for removing the wiper control module but I cannot recall having to that.
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#2838670 - 12/17/12 11:40 PM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
Owen Offline


Registered: 12/14/12
Posts: 6
Loc: UK
The upper intake manifold connect to the lower manifold through metal tubes in the engine compartment. For removing upper intake there in need to open the hood of the vehicle, place a drain pan under the radiator and masking tape on the each of the coil wires and mark their position with a pen or felt tip marker. Than remove the bolts, Disconnect the radiator hose from the radiator, Take off the hold-down clamp on the distributor, Locate the bolts used to secure the upper manifold, lift the upper manifold up and pull it out of the engine.
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#2838700 - 12/18/12 12:35 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
default Offline


Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 527
Loc: Michigan
On most 3.1 GMs, you have to remove a few engine mounts to tip the engine forward. The plugs on a V6 dodge caravan are most easily done from underneath, blind. So quit complaining.

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#2838800 - 12/18/12 05:43 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: SLCraig]
partspro Offline


Registered: 12/08/11
Posts: 169
Loc: MO, USA
As an Engineer, I have to respond to 'Stupid Engineering'. That's just wrong!! Are you refering to Design Engineers, Manufacturing Engineers, what!!. These vehicles typically have Platinum plugs with 100,000 mile service intervals. The entire Engine Compartment, even the placement of the battery becomes part of the crash and safety design. Ever have to change a battery, in the Wheel well of a Chrysler!! All manufacturers want the customer to service the vehicle at their shops. Many mechanics have custom bent/built tools to do the job at less than book time. If you are fixing your own vehicle today, get used to Engines packed tightly and research the job well. Don't blame the Engineers, they design components and assemblies, but Manufacturing, Ease of Production, etc take precident.

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#2838877 - 12/18/12 07:56 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Spazdog]
css9450 Offline


Registered: 01/03/04
Posts: 1626
Loc: Glen Ellyn, IL
Originally Posted By: Spazdog

Somebody's never done the back three spark plugs on a 3.1 W-body car.

you can either take the alternator off and reach across the back of the engine (my method) ...


That's how I do it too. I can get my whole arm behind the engine if necessary. Just can't see much though...

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#2838896 - 12/18/12 08:11 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Spazdog]
cchase Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 3998
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: cchase
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
I think it's easier than doing the back three on a 3.1 GM.


You don't have to do anything special to access the rear bank on a 3.1.


Somebody's never done the back three spark plugs on a 3.1 W-body car.

you can either take the alternator off and reach across the back of the engine (my method) or you can follow the manual's instructions and take off the torque strut "dog bones" and rock the engine forward.

N-chassis cars usually require removing the coil pack. The manual calls for removing the wiper control module but I cannot recall having to that.


Your statement would have been more accurate to narrow down the vehicle, not the engine, since many of the vehicles that the 3.1/3.4 engine was installed in do not require any work prior to removing spark plugs. Having just done one within the past year, I'm speaking from experience. I couldn't SEE the plugs but it was easy to get at with a socket and short extension. And no, no rolling the engine forward first. Yes, an N-body and no need to remove the coil packs (although it's 2 bolts...)

I'm aware that on SOME vehicles, that may be possible, but that's not an engine design issue (such as having to remove the upper intake), it's just a packaging issue (engine in the car).

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#2838950 - 12/18/12 09:08 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: default]
jeepman3071 Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1759
Loc: Storrs, Connecticut
Originally Posted By: default
On most 3.1 GMs, you have to remove a few engine mounts to tip the engine forward. The plugs on a V6 dodge caravan are most easily done from underneath, blind. So quit complaining.


That's fine, its a GM. The engine will need to be swapped anyway before you change the plugs out. grin

Seriously though, it makes you wonder if they design cars to make it harder for the do-it-yourselfer. More money for the dealerships.

VW is a good example. To replace the headlight bulb on a 2001 Jetta, you have to remove about 5 plastic shields and the battery. My friend is a 19 year old tiny Asian girl and even she couldn't get her hands in there. LOL
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#2839587 - 12/18/12 04:51 PM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: cchase]
Spazdog Offline


Registered: 09/06/10
Posts: 5492
Loc: Arlington
Originally Posted By: cchase
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: cchase
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
I think it's easier than doing the back three on a 3.1 GM.


You don't have to do anything special to access the rear bank on a 3.1.


Somebody's never done the back three spark plugs on a 3.1 W-body car.

you can either take the alternator off and reach across the back of the engine (my method) or you can follow the manual's instructions and take off the torque strut "dog bones" and rock the engine forward.

N-chassis cars usually require removing the coil pack. The manual calls for removing the wiper control module but I cannot recall having to that.


Your statement would have been more accurate to narrow down the vehicle, not the engine, since many of the vehicles that the 3.1/3.4 engine was installed in do not require any work prior to removing spark plugs. Having just done one within the past year, I'm speaking from experience. I couldn't SEE the plugs but it was easy to get at with a socket and short extension. And no, no rolling the engine forward first. Yes, an N-body and no need to remove the coil packs (although it's 2 bolts...)

I'm aware that on SOME vehicles, that may be possible, but that's not an engine design issue (such as having to remove the upper intake), it's just a packaging issue (engine in the car).


Point was that it is no more difficult to do a Duratec Upper Plenum than it is to do the back three on any number of 3.1 GMs...It's not like doing the plugs on a D-series Civic.
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#2839742 - 12/18/12 06:51 PM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Spazdog]
cchase Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 3998
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Point was that it is no more difficult to do a Duratec Upper Plenum than it is to do the back three on any number of 3.1 GMs...It's not like doing the plugs on a D-series Civic.


I get that. I just want to make a distinction between poor packaging and poor design. I suppose it comes down to the position responsible for bad packaging - the engineers who designed the engine or the ones who put it in the vehicle. smile

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#2839863 - 12/18/12 08:11 PM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
GMBoy Offline


Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 6657
Loc: Texas
I don't see the issue anyhow...I mean every 80 to 100k miles you change the plugs. Not like you're gonna do it once a year.

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#2840408 - 12/19/12 09:25 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: partspro]
zzyzzx Offline


Registered: 05/18/12
Posts: 1703
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Originally Posted By: partspro
These vehicles typically have Platinum plugs with 100,000 mile service intervals.


I have double platinum spark plugs on my 1995 Ford Escort that supposedly last 100,000 miles. They still have to be regapped every 30,000 - 40,000 miles.

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#2840413 - 12/19/12 09:30 AM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8241
Loc: NorthEast
nobody gaps double (laser) platinum spark plugs! Of course, they were NOT invented in 1995, so I am not sure where you are getting the instructions to regap them.

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#2840895 - 12/19/12 03:40 PM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: jeepman3071]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6344
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Threads like this make me love my Jeep 4.0L. I can open the hood and easily see all the plugs.


Nah, the Cherokee is packed WAY too tight. On an old F-100, you could climb under the hood and stand *NEXT* to the engine and remove the plugs at waist level without even bending over :-p

One that I've never done, but is my benchmark for 'what were they thinking???' is the starter on a Northstar. Under the intake. Granted, they were trying to build a 300+ horsepower lightweight overhead-cam 32-valve v8 that would fit under the hood in a front-drive in the early 90s (and they succeeded), but just dang. The later solution of "just use a pushrod LS series engine and take advantage of the lower 'V' height compared to an OHC" is so much better in hindsight.
_________________________
'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 Cherokee 4.0, '11 Grand Cherokee 3.6

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#2841195 - 12/19/12 07:07 PM Re: really remove the upper intake??? [Re: Dakota1820]
JOD Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 3145
Loc: PNW/WA
Originally Posted By: chevyboy14
I bet its more like an hour to do it. It doesn't look to bad its just very stupid engineering. No reason they couldn't have made it where you didn't have to take the intake off.


You should call up Ford. I bet they never thought of that one!

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