What GL-4 for a worm-drive Trans/diff with brass

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This is for a 1971 Troy built/Gardenway Horse tiller. I have a separate thread in the OPE forum, but wanted to get gear oil specific.

gear oil spec is a GL-4 140wt, with 85w-140 and even 80w-90 being allowable. The unit consists of a steel shaft with two steel worm gears that drive brass gears for the drive wheels and brass gears to the rear tines, using a shared oil bath of around 3 quarts.

Now, I first though of both GL4 redline MT-90 and GL4 amsoil MTL 75w-90, but the redline specifically states it is not suitable for hypoid gears and that got me doubting either would be suitable for worm gears where there us so much sliding.

What Is my best option for the life of this unit, thanks!
 
What about Amsoil Severe Gear 75w-140? It states it can be used with GL-4 applications. Knowing Amsoil, I'd tend to take them at their word that it's okay.
 
One question I would ask is if GL-5 was a spec in 1971, or was GL-4 the highest at the time? I can't imagine that the increased level of EP additives from Gl-4 to 5 could hurt worm gears.
 
FYI, I'm discussing information on brass worm-drives in this thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2713361

The short answer is, do not use a GL4/5 automotive gear oil.

The GL4 will not provide the protection and most GL5 will corrode the copper-alloy gears. There are many oils specific to worm-drive in three basic categories:

- Mineral with VI under 100
- PAO with VI around 150
- PAG with VI over 200

Most of these are hard to get in small quantities. I'm trying to find an affordable source for a PAG lube.
 
Originally Posted By: JZiggy
One question I would ask is if GL-5 was a spec in 1971, or was GL-4 the highest at the time? I can't imagine that the increased level of EP additives from Gl-4 to 5 could hurt worm gears.


GL5 is not "superior" to GL4 because it's numbered one higher. It's simply a different specification denoting the need for more EP additives than GL4, and suitability for a different set of applications. GL4 these days is typically transmission lubricant for light-duty transmissions like FWD MT's, while GL5 is typically gear oil for differentials, transfer cases, and the like. Gears such as differentials usually have more need for EP additives than the gears in a FWD MT. At least that's how I understand the differences.

There was even a GL6 that's now fallen into disuse.
 
Originally Posted By: sciphi
What about Amsoil Severe Gear 75w-140? It states it can be used with GL-4 applications. Knowing Amsoil, I'd tend to take them at their word that it's okay.


I considered that oil, but the duel rating has me leery for the sake of the brass gears.
 
Originally Posted By: JZiggy
One question I would ask is if GL-5 was a spec in 1971, or was GL-4 the highest at the time? I can't imagine that the increased level of EP additives from Gl-4 to 5 could hurt worm gears.


Don't GL-5s have roughly twice the EP additives? Even the GL-4s don't have perfect brass test numbers...
 
Originally Posted By: martinq
FYI, I'm discussing information on brass worm-drives in this thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2713361

The short answer is, do not use a GL4/5 automotive gear oil.

The GL4 will not provide the protection and most GL5 will corrode the copper-alloy gears. There are many oils specific to worm-drive in three basic categories:

- Mineral with VI under 100
- PAO with VI around 150
- PAG with VI over 200

Most of these are hard to get in small quantities. I'm trying to find an affordable source for a PAG lube.


Good thread, one other difference is I have about eight roller bearings that will be relying on this gear oil as well, so I can't ignore bearing wear protection either. Also, in the skillsaw, are both gears yellow metal or just the worm gear? You can get PAG oil fairly cheap at any auto part store. It comes in roughly 12oz containers for use in the AC system, but I'm not positive it would be the proper weight.
Why won't a GL-4 trans lube provide enough protection when they seem to for manual transmissions? Still too much additive?
 
Marting, the link on your thread had some interesting info that may further the complexity of choosing an oil.

"Extreme Pressure (EP) Gear Oils
EP mineral gear oils are used more extensively in worm gears. Under conditions of high pressure and temperature, the EP (antiscuff) additive reacts with the metal surface to form a soft, slippery chemical layer which prevents severe wear and welding. Previously, there was a concern that sulfur-phosphorous EP additives would react with the bronze gear. However, new EP additive technology used by most of the major lubricant suppliers has reduced the corrosive attack by utilizing nonactive sulfur. EP lubricants work particularly well when shock loading occurs. EP gear oils also protect steel gears better than compounded gear oils.

Typical recommendations are for both AGMA 7 and 8 viscosity grades. Like compounded gear oils, EP gear oils limit operating temperatures to under 180°F (82°C).

Typical commercial oils: Shell Omala, Texaco Meropa, Exxon Spartan EP, Mobilgear 634 and 636, and Chevron EP Gear Oil.

Synthetic Worm Gear Oils
Two major types of synthetic gear oils have been used successfully in challenging conditions with worm gears: polyalphaolefins and polyalkelene glycols.

Polyalphaolefins (PAOs) are the most common type of synthetic lubricant. They have good high and low temperature properties and are compatible with most mineral oils. Unlike some synthetics, PAOs don’t attack paints or seals. Most formulations contain a small amount of organic ester or antiwear mineral that improves boundary lubrication conditions. Products that contain EP additives are also available. There are no major disadvantages, other than cost, when using PAOs as worm gear lubricants.

Typical commercial oils: Chevron Tegra, Texaco Pinnacle, Exxon Teresstic SHP, Mobil SHC, Shell Hyperia and Royal Purple Synergy.

Polyalkylene glycols (PAGs) are excellent for worm gear applications. They possess superior lubricity properties and have good low and high temperature properties. The Viscosity Index of PAGs is higher than most synthetics, approaching 280. Therefore, a lower initial viscosity grade can be used minimizing internal friction resulting in improved worm gear efficiency. Most PAGs contain antiwear properties but there are no formulations with EP additives.

Besides cost, a major disadvantage of polyalkylene glycols is their incompatibility with other fluids. They also attack paints, seals and polycarbonate sight glasses."

So, this clearly states makes the case for synthetics. And it also makes me wonder if the EP additives in auto gear oils are actually in fact a deactivated Sulfur that won't attack the yellow metal. I wish the article dealt with consumer oils rather than industrial oils.
 
For what it's worth, I put M1 GL5 75/90? in mine three years ago....all's well so far.

Had to be better than the thirtysomething year old original fill that was in there methinks.
 
Originally Posted By: SOHCman
Also, in the skillsaw, are both gears yellow metal or just the worm gear? You can get PAG oil fairly cheap at any auto part store. It comes in roughly 12oz containers for use in the AC system, but I'm not positive it would be the proper weight.

The pinion is steel, the wheel is a copper-alloy. Thanks for the tip, that's exactly what I was looking for (a different application). I'm positive the PAG compressor oil would be to thin but I'll check it out.

Originally Posted By: SOHCman
Why won't a GL-4 trans lube provide enough protection when they seem to for manual transmissions? Still too much additive?

GL4 tranny fluids are designed to allow (or promote?) for the brass-steel friction in the synchros. Worm-drives need an oil designed to prevent the sliding-contact friction between brass-steel gears which is much higher than found in hypoid. So in some ways you need more protection than GL5 and are more sensitive to corrosion then that's allowed in GL4.
 
Think the copper corrosion thing is blown a bit out of proportion by some with respect to modern day GL5's. I mean most of them score a 1B on pure copper for the ASTM D130. That would mean that you might see visible corrosion on your yellow gears in a half a century?
 
Assuming there is no synchronizer in there, your only concern in not putting too much sulfur/phos additive is that brass. The sulfur/phos peels off some of the bras as it slides off.

That is a perfect situation for Delo Gear oil, either in 80W-90 or 85W-140. It uses Borate that is perfect for protecting brass and higher EP protection than sulfur/phos.
 
Originally Posted By: SOHCman
Good thread, one other difference is I have about eight roller bearings that will be relying on this gear oil as well, so I can't ignore bearing wear protection either.

Bearing protection will not be an issue with any useable oil as long as you keep contamination under control.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SOHCman
Originally Posted By: JZiggy
One question I would ask is if GL-5 was a spec in 1971, or was GL-4 the highest at the time? I can't imagine that the increased level of EP additives from Gl-4 to 5 could hurt worm gears.


Don't GL-5s have roughly twice the EP additives? Even the GL-4s don't have perfect brass test numbers...


Exactly.
 
A point was brought up by SOHCman that PAG automotive AC compressor oils might be similar. I did some research and found that there are three ISO grades in common use; 46, 100 and 150. An ISO 220 PAG worm oil would probably do the trick but a 150 compressor oil is likely too thin and/or might not have the proper additives. Without a PDS it's impossible to tell.

A quick list of some 4S (Four Seasons) compressor oils:
http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/air-conditioning-compressor-oils

http://www.4s.com/upload/Four Seasons/Documents/MSDS/59003_MSDS.PDF
http://www.4s.com/upload/Four Seasons/Documents/MSDS/59020_MSDS.PDF

From the MSDS we see something strange. The product is either EMKAROX PAG 150 2+2 (Made by Croda), or it's PAG 150 2+2 made by EMKARATE. I think the second one is a typo?

I also emailed Red Line to see if their ShockProof gear oil might be a possibility but Dave does not think so and said they did not have a suitable lube for this application.

I'm going to see if there is a PAG 150 compressor oil in my area and try to dig up info on it. Maybe a bench-test is in order.
 
Any news on the PAG oil? I am going to look into the Delo gear oils mentioned by Widman. Springs almost here, time to get till'n!
 
Originally Posted By: widman
Assuming there is no synchronizer in there, your only concern in not putting too much sulfur/phos additive is that brass. The sulfur/phos peels off some of the bras as it slides off.

That is a perfect situation for Delo Gear oil, either in 80W-90 or 85W-140. It uses Borate that is perfect for protecting brass and higher EP protection than sulfur/phos.


I just found this thread regarding Delo gear oil and copper. Perhaps not quite conclusive, but there is an issue with copper wear/corrosion that might not be ideal for our application. there is still allot of sulfer in it that may be to blame?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2574119
 
Originally Posted By: SOHCman
I just found this thread regarding Delo gear oil and copper.

By the looks of it, those two Delo oils are out for brass worm-drive. You really don't want ANY copper corrosion when dealing with brass gears.

Look for a 1A rating (no corrosion) if you can find it, 1B is the next best.
 
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