Some info on gasoline brands...

[FowVay]

I was pleasantly surprised when I went to do some maintenance on a used car that I bought. The vehicle was a 1997 VW Passat with VR6 engine. The previous owner had use Amoco Premium fuel the entire life of the car.

I removed the intake and cylinder head to replace a head gasket and much to my surprise there was not a single flake of any dirt on the entire intake system from the fuel injectors onward. The brass valve guides looks as bright and shiny as the day they were made and the intake valves looked the same. Even the exhaust side was clean except for the obvious black stains caused by years of combustion chamber gases being blown across them. The engine had 92,000 miles on it at this time.

I have rebuilt many engines in my life and I have never seen a top end this pristine. From this one experience I now pay the $.02 premium in my area for Amoco premium fuel.

 

[novadude]

Awesome post!

 

[fuel tanker man]

Looks like Amoco got whacked by the FTC...

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1996/02/amoco.htm

FWIW

Dan

 

[Jimbo]

fuel tanker man,

While everything you say is true in a marketing area like yours, the readers need to understand that refining and distribution practices may not be exactly the same accross all of North America.

California has a highly regulated gasoline formula that includes minimum amounts of additives, enforced by the Air Resources Board. In the Los Angeles area every major, and some minor brands have their own refineries. There are almost no "off-brand" stations anymore. ARCO(BP), Chevron, Mobil, Shell, Valero and 76(ConocoPhillips) all have local refineries and branded stations. Im sure that there is some trading of product among them, but it does not all come out of one terminal at the end of a pipeline as in other markets. BTW, 91 is the highest octane rating commonly available here.

 

[FordManVT]

quote:

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Originally posted by FowVay:
I removed the intake and cylinder head to replace a head gasket and much to my surprise there was not a single flake of any dirt on the entire intake system from the fuel injectors onward.

---

That's normal for any car and any fuel. the fuel acts as a solvent.


I worked for a number of years at a gas station and saw everything tanker man described. we were the biggest station for tens of miles and got deliveries every other day....I never had anyone complain about the gas, and our tank monitor records were a requirement by the state...both amount of water seepage in and gas seepage out. We were also a large company so they put in the additives while filling the tankers. We had at least one station under each of the major brands. Each had their own specs for the gas.....mobil was the most strict. Mobil customers were also the most loyal.

Although I must say, every car my family has ever owned, hated texaco gas. this is based on a number of stations over a period of time....

 

[MNgopher]

quote:

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Originally posted by T-Keith:
Good post!

Also a good point MN Gopher, Marathon/Ashland and Holiday(maybe BP too) have refineries in our area, so we don't have the situation of all the gas coming down the same pipeline. Thanks to our crazy fuel requirements(ethanol) our gas distribution is quite unique.

It's a good point about addatives though. I'm glad I now add a good addative in almost every tank. (FP)

-T

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BP/Amoco Fuel in the Twin Cities is also single sourced and refined at the Tesoro West Coast Refinery in Mandan, ND. Prior to the BP/Amoco merger, this refinery was an Amoco refinery. They ship to MN and the Twin Cities via what used to be a an Amoco pipeline, that now has changed ownership several times. In any event, the product dispensed at BP/Amoco pumps in the Twin Cities is a different gasoline product than dispensed at Holiday or Superamerica.

 

[tblazed]

Wondering what the groups thoughts are on this.

Reading the recent GM Techlink 8-04 newsletter, seems BMW, GM, Toyota, and Honda have concluded the EPA minimum standards don't cut it, and they have established a new "standard" for gasoline - "Top Tier". Check out the link-

http://www.toptiergas.com/

I had been buying gas at the cheapest available place, mainly Sam's, for over a year when, last summer, my 2002 Trailblazer developed an intermittent stumble in the idle most noticeable while sitting at a light. Tach needle would also drop a little when it would stumble. Added in 1 bottle of the STP cleaner in the black bottle and changed to Shell 87 a year ago when they were touting their gas for better mileage, the stumble went away and never came back. Possibly some injector fouling going on that cleared up?

Anyway, I got a Shell charge card to get the 5% rebate and that makes it actually cheaper than the Sam's gas I was buying.

I was recently told by Shell that currently, all grades they sell have a minimum of 2X the EPA required detergent additive, and they will be "Top Tier" certified by the end of this summer. The "V Power" premium they are currently pushing has 5X the detergency as per Shell. I have not tried the 93 octane "V Power" gas.

Have noticed over the years when I used any brand of high octane premium gas in a vehicle made for 87, the performance seemed to suffer a little and the mpg would go down too.

[ September 02, 2004, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: tblazed ]

 

[Bamaro]

Dan, to your knowledge, are the no-names buying their gas before or after the additive packages for the various name brands added?

 

[fuel tanker man]

The "essential" additives are put in at the various refineries. What gets injected as it goes onto the tanker truck are the propreitary additives--such as Techron, V-power, and such. As I've mentioned, this stuff in used in some very small amounts--probably just enough to make it legal to claim that "it's in there."

I will admit again that I don't know the actual concentration of the prop additives but the ppm would probably be pretty low as "less than a gallon" of prop additive goes into 8500 gallons of gasoline.

The convienience stores and unbranded gasoline stations simply buy from the best "rack price" of the day. This fuel does have the required detergent amounts in it, but not the propreitary additives (Techron, V-power, etc). In other words if we purchase Motiva (Shell/Texaco merge) "unbranded" gasoline it's not going to be injected with Shell's or Texaco's prop additive; it'll be plain vanilla gasoline.

In our area, Conoco/Philips and Marathon/Ashland have been switching leads for the last two months as far as best rack price. Since we carry unbranded gasoline, we either load the Conoco or the Marathon unbranded variations. This simply means that no propreitary additive is injected as the fuel goes onto the truck but the essential additives required by the government will still be there since they are imparted to it as it's being refined.

But once again, the unbranded gasoline seems to be as good as any of the branded stuff in spite of the single propreitary additive not being there. Some folks actually report better mileage from unbranded gasolines--but as I've mentioned elsewhere it's nearly impossible to scientifically prove with one car outside a labratory environment which propreitary additives work and which do not; too many variables to factor out.

Dan

 

[novadude]

Sounds to me like the best route is to buy plain "vanilla" gas from a convenience store where it is cheap, and add YOUR OWN additive (FP, Lucas, Redline, etc), so that you will know what you are getting. If name brands are inconsistant, and add very low doses of proprietary adds, it hardly seems worth it to spend more for name brand stuff.

 

[phordguy]

That's exactly what I have been doing with the big price differential between name brand and cheapo gas. The spread is as as much as a $.20 per gallon or as low at $.06 per gallon seen for gas in my local area. I figured with the gas mileage I'm currently getting in the vehicle being testest that the FP additive costs only $.02 or so per gal of $1.65 off branded gas. The vehicle runs better and gets better MPG than if it had the $1.85 branded gas with no FP. So that's a pretty good savings and you the maintenance that the FP does to your fuel system to boot!

Here are my calcs:

$1.85 - 1.65 = .20 gal savings
.20 - .02 = .18 gal savings with additive
one tank = 15 gal
one tank per week, 52 weeks in year
Thats 15 * .18 = $2.70 savings per tank
Thats $2.70 * 52 = $140.4 savings per year and no other fuel injector maintenance necessary!

Yeah I don't need the expensive watered down addivites.

[ September 03, 2004, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: phordguy ]

 

[fuel tanker man]

One thing that we're seeing is less and less mid-grade (89 octane) and premium gasoline being sold, seemingly as a result of the high gasoline prices.

More and more folks who previously ran these higher grades have been coerced by high pump prices into trying the 87 octane regular, and they're finding that their cars perform just as well. And these folks won't likely switch back to higher octanes even if pump prices drop significantly.

By the same token, many folks who heretofore did not price shop for gasoline are now trying the unbranded "cheap gas" and once again finding it meets their expectations.

It would appear that exhorbitant gasoline prices will end up hurting branded gasoline's sales--at least to some extent. I'm aware that with inflation factored in pump prices really aren't as high as they have been in years past, but that's little consolation when one is used to buying gasoline for a buck twenty a gallon or so.

Dan

 

[tblazed]

Around here (D-FW) the cheapest priced gas is typically Sam's Club. It was 1.73 a gallon the other day. The Shell station down the street was 1.79/gal. Buy it with the 5% rebate card and that gets the name-brand Shell down to 1.70 - even less than the no-name gas from Sam's. And I don't have to add anything to it.

Regarding the "Top Tier" gas standard, from what I've gathered, the big reason the car companies are pushing for this is the extended warranty for emissions. "The car companies said they are worried about the ability of their vehicles to maintain EPA’s Tier 2 emission standards if detergency is low." They obviously want a gasoline used that will minimize warranty claims for emissions problems down the road.

Here's a little more info I have collected about the Top Tier Gas standard and what is done to help ensure you are really getting what they claim:

"Under the automakers’ standard, they will define a new class of commercial gasoline with enhanced detergency called “Top Tier Detergent Gasoline.” In written materials sent to API, the car companies said the new, cleaner fuel will “provide refiners and marketers an opportunity to differentiate their products in the marketplace, advertise performance features, and increase market share."

"The car companies said refiners will be asked to sign an “attestation and agreement” stating that their gasoline satisfies the “Top Tier” standards when tested, and it will continue to do so for the next year wherever it is sold. The refiners also must allow representatives of the automakers to take samples of unadditized and additized fuel from their supply terminals to verify it meets standards. If the fuel does not meet the standards, the refiner must stop advertising its product as a “Top Tier” gasoline within 30 days."

Companies will have to meet the new "Top Tier" standard in all grades of gasoline sold if a marketer wants to participate in the program.

Anyway, should be interesting how this plays out.

 

[tmorris1]

I had a friend who worked at a gas station near a freeway that sold a lot of fuel. He said that they had monitors that could check the level of water that had settled to the bottom of the tanks. When it got to a certain level they dropped down pumps that would pump the water out. He said that the premium had the most water in the tanks because they didn't sell as much of it.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Tmorris,

That's pretty much status quo.

He's right about the water levels. Condensation alone (when the tank levels are low) accounts for a certain amount of water. It condenses on tank walls and runs down into the fuel and settles on the tank bottom.

The sump should be far enough off the tank floor that it won't pick up the water, and the main sump filter should catch any water droplets that may get into it. Then filters at the dispensers should provide one extra measure of impurity removal.

Station managers know that if they allow water to get into the tanks of their customer's cars that it'll cost them PLENTY, not even counting the loss of repeat business. So they do go the extra mile to ensure that water is kept out of the fuel they sell.

Dan

 

[eljefino]

oops, typo. I meant to ask,

"If a mixing pump runs out of regular, will it pump premium when MIDGRADE is selected?

Great intel!

 

[fuel tanker man]

Hey, I knew what you meant--I had wondered that myself before one of our stations ran out of regular and the midgrade pumps quit pumping as well.

But as mentioned, other types of blenders might just pass along pure premium at a slower rate; not really sure.

Dan

 

[Matt_S]

quote:

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Regarding the "Top Tier" gas standard, from what I've gathered, the big reason the car companies are pushing for this is the extended warranty for emissions.

---

From the information I've gathered, this is absolutely true. The one thing that I'd add is that, as a general rule, a car will produce the least amount of emissions when it's running as efficiently as possible. Keeping things clean is a very important part of efficient engine operation. If the new Top Tier standard helps keep the intake and combustion chambers of engines clean and efficient, this will be inherently good for the consumer. Personally, I hope to see more companies adopt this standard, especially Shell, as I don't have Chevron or Quik Trip in my area.

 

[eljefino]

Interesting.

I always thought the mid-grade gas was mixed at the pump from the 87 and 93 storage tanks... but you say it's delivered in the truck that way. What about those brands, sunoco comes to mind, that offer five different grades? They must mix some in the pump, right?

What happens if a mixing pump (if there is such a thing) is used where they've run out of 87 octane? Is straight hi-test dispensed for the price of regular?

Is the color scheme standard for the tank inputs on the concrete? I.E. I could figure out for myself if my favorite station mixes or gets 89 delivered?

 

[Ken2]

tankerman,
The Royal Dutch/Shell & Texaco joint venture was called Equilon. That has been changed by the Chevron & Texaco merger. "Motiva Enterprises LLC is an oil refining, lubricants and retail business operation owned by Shell and Saudi Refining Inc."

In this region, Texaco stations are being rebranded to Shell, unless they're just across the street from an existing Shell station...then they're rebranded to Chevron. Remaining Texaco stations will be ChevronTexaco.


Ken