This is Honda SN from COP; MM=15%
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Honda Genuine Full Syn 0W-20, 6400, 2011 Accord V6
- Thread starter Indydriver
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This car is my experiment with following Honda factory recommendations, ignoring break in metals, and extending OCIs farther than I ever have in 40 years of changing oil in all types of cars and motorcycles. Since everything seems to be OK, next OC will be at MM 0%. The engine was refilled with the same Honda oil.
BTW, this VCM engine burned 1/3 qt during the first OCI and none during the second. 95% city driving.
BTW, this VCM engine burned 1/3 qt during the first OCI and none during the second. 95% city driving.
wear-in metals are dropping considerably. I think you are going to have a great car for many years to come. I have to flush that stuff out but it seems there is no harm following Honda's rec's.
Thanks for the post!
Thanks for the post!
Thanks for posting. I wonder how low the Kv will be at 0% OLM.
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
This car is my experiment with following Honda factory recommendations, ignoring break in metals, and extending OCIs farther than I ever have in 40 years of changing oil in all types of cars and motorcycles. Since everything seems to be OK, next OC will be at MM 0%. The engine was refilled with the same Honda oil.
BTW, this VCM engine burned 1/3 qt during the first OCI and none during the second. 95% city driving.
Welcome to the "new" millenum ... !
OCIs are genearlly much safer and longer than they used to be. Seems odd to some (including me, a former syn junkie), but the facts cannot be ignored.
UOAs this early in the engine life-cycle really tell you nothing of the oil nor the engine, except that break-in is coming down as expected. Keep up the UOAs, let the data settle, be consistent in your OCI and maintenance plan; your patience will be repair in time.
I would be pushing out the OCIs as far as safetly practical, to get the ROI; follow the IOLM. I would presume that Honda branded oil is decent (though nothing special) and pricey, if my Honda motorcycle experience has taught me anything.
This car is my experiment with following Honda factory recommendations, ignoring break in metals, and extending OCIs farther than I ever have in 40 years of changing oil in all types of cars and motorcycles. Since everything seems to be OK, next OC will be at MM 0%. The engine was refilled with the same Honda oil.
BTW, this VCM engine burned 1/3 qt during the first OCI and none during the second. 95% city driving.
Welcome to the "new" millenum ... !
OCIs are genearlly much safer and longer than they used to be. Seems odd to some (including me, a former syn junkie), but the facts cannot be ignored.
UOAs this early in the engine life-cycle really tell you nothing of the oil nor the engine, except that break-in is coming down as expected. Keep up the UOAs, let the data settle, be consistent in your OCI and maintenance plan; your patience will be repair in time.
I would be pushing out the OCIs as far as safetly practical, to get the ROI; follow the IOLM. I would presume that Honda branded oil is decent (though nothing special) and pricey, if my Honda motorcycle experience has taught me anything.
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Regarding the Honda oil, I bought it right after the car in Spring of 2011, so price-wise it wasn't so bad then. I had read about a bunch of problems with the VCM V6 and in fact, Honda had a tech bulletin for 2008-2010 IIRC. They stated publicly that they had upgraded oil control rings and impregnated piston skirts with moly for the '11 MY. I believe this was when they demanded that dealers and customers leave the FF in for the distance. This all seemed to be in reaction to the mounting VCM issues. It was clear to me that Honda engineers were more concerned about a longer term moly exposure than they were about metal residue in motor oil.
Given the above, I decided I didn't mind spending a couple of extra bucks to do everything exactly as recommended with all OE products. However, this fill of Honda genuine is all I have so I will be switching to either PP or TGMO both of which I have in plentiful supply. I'm leaning toward the SM TGMO to give the engine another moly boost.
Interestingly (to me anyway) is we've purchased a new Toyota Sienna V6 since then and it calls for 10,000 mile OCIs right out of the box without so much as an OLM. Since Toyota includes 2 oil changes with TGMO 0W-20 in the purchase price, I won't be able to do a UOA on that engine until 30,000.
So, the manufacturers are pushing us into extended OCIs whether we like it or not. One would tend to assume with their R&D budgets that they know what they're doing BUT, they haven't always been perfect in the past, have they?
Given the above, I decided I didn't mind spending a couple of extra bucks to do everything exactly as recommended with all OE products. However, this fill of Honda genuine is all I have so I will be switching to either PP or TGMO both of which I have in plentiful supply. I'm leaning toward the SM TGMO to give the engine another moly boost.
Interestingly (to me anyway) is we've purchased a new Toyota Sienna V6 since then and it calls for 10,000 mile OCIs right out of the box without so much as an OLM. Since Toyota includes 2 oil changes with TGMO 0W-20 in the purchase price, I won't be able to do a UOA on that engine until 30,000.
So, the manufacturers are pushing us into extended OCIs whether we like it or not. One would tend to assume with their R&D budgets that they know what they're doing BUT, they haven't always been perfect in the past, have they?
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Originally Posted By: Rand
where is the UOA??
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
This is Honda SN from COP; MM=15%
Seriously? You can't see it?
where is the UOA??
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
This is Honda SN from COP; MM=15%
Seriously? You can't see it?
Check out the differences in Calcium, Phos and Zink between FF and the OTC oil. I was surprised by this. Apparently, the FF is NOT Honda brand oil.
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dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Regarding the Honda oil, I bought it right after the car in Spring of 2011, so price-wise it wasn't so bad then. I had read about a bunch of problems with the VCM V6 and in fact, Honda had a tech bulletin for 2008-2010 IIRC. They stated publicly that they had upgraded oil control rings and impregnated piston skirts with moly for the '11 MY. I believe this was when they demanded that dealers and customers leave the FF in for the distance. This all seemed to be in reaction to the mounting VCM issues. It was clear to me that Honda engineers were more concerned about a longer term moly exposure than they were about metal residue in motor oil.
Given the above, I decided I didn't mind spending a couple of extra bucks to do everything exactly as recommended with all OE products. However, this fill of Honda genuine is all I have so I will be switching to either PP or TGMO both of which I have in plentiful supply. I'm leaning toward the SM TGMO to give the engine another moly boost.
Interestingly (to me anyway) is we've purchased a new Toyota Sienna V6 since then and it calls for 10,000 mile OCIs right out of the box without so much as an OLM. Since Toyota includes 2 oil changes with TGMO 0W-20 in the purchase price, I won't be able to do a UOA on that engine until 30,000.
So, the manufacturers are pushing us into extended OCIs whether we like it or not. One would tend to assume with their R&D budgets that they know what they're doing BUT, they haven't always been perfect in the past, have they?
I can't argue with trying to stay compliant with warranty constraints; makes too much sense and the risk typically isn't worth the reward to go off the reservation.
As for the longer OCIs, it's the trend. And there is a fair amount of data to show that, at least in many applications, it's a safe thing to do. Every engine will be somewhat "unique" in the response to such endeavors, though.
Regarding the Honda oil, I bought it right after the car in Spring of 2011, so price-wise it wasn't so bad then. I had read about a bunch of problems with the VCM V6 and in fact, Honda had a tech bulletin for 2008-2010 IIRC. They stated publicly that they had upgraded oil control rings and impregnated piston skirts with moly for the '11 MY. I believe this was when they demanded that dealers and customers leave the FF in for the distance. This all seemed to be in reaction to the mounting VCM issues. It was clear to me that Honda engineers were more concerned about a longer term moly exposure than they were about metal residue in motor oil.
Given the above, I decided I didn't mind spending a couple of extra bucks to do everything exactly as recommended with all OE products. However, this fill of Honda genuine is all I have so I will be switching to either PP or TGMO both of which I have in plentiful supply. I'm leaning toward the SM TGMO to give the engine another moly boost.
Interestingly (to me anyway) is we've purchased a new Toyota Sienna V6 since then and it calls for 10,000 mile OCIs right out of the box without so much as an OLM. Since Toyota includes 2 oil changes with TGMO 0W-20 in the purchase price, I won't be able to do a UOA on that engine until 30,000.
So, the manufacturers are pushing us into extended OCIs whether we like it or not. One would tend to assume with their R&D budgets that they know what they're doing BUT, they haven't always been perfect in the past, have they?
I can't argue with trying to stay compliant with warranty constraints; makes too much sense and the risk typically isn't worth the reward to go off the reservation.
As for the longer OCIs, it's the trend. And there is a fair amount of data to show that, at least in many applications, it's a safe thing to do. Every engine will be somewhat "unique" in the response to such endeavors, though.
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Check out the differences in Calcium, Phos and Zink between FF and the OTC oil. I was surprised by this. Apparently, the FF is NOT Honda brand oil.
Honda, like most manufacturers, uses a special factory fill, augmented by assembly lube.
Idemitsu has stated publicly that they supply Subaru with a special factory fill with an extremely stout additive package. I expect Honda and other manufacturers get the same from their suppliers.
Check out the differences in Calcium, Phos and Zink between FF and the OTC oil. I was surprised by this. Apparently, the FF is NOT Honda brand oil.
Honda, like most manufacturers, uses a special factory fill, augmented by assembly lube.
Idemitsu has stated publicly that they supply Subaru with a special factory fill with an extremely stout additive package. I expect Honda and other manufacturers get the same from their suppliers.
I'm surprised how low the TBN is for the full syn. I wonder how the semi-syn would hold up? Looks like the number are trending down nicely!
I got a case of the semi-syn 0w-20 for $50 when I bought the car. I have been running to 30% on the OLM.
I am due for an OCI soon too, and I can't decide what to run. I keep hoping the Toyota dealer will sell me a case of the TGMO 0w-20 for $60, but no luck so far. The parts manager wont go below $88 for a case, which is just nuts.
I got a case of the semi-syn 0w-20 for $50 when I bought the car. I have been running to 30% on the OLM.
I am due for an OCI soon too, and I can't decide what to run. I keep hoping the Toyota dealer will sell me a case of the TGMO 0w-20 for $60, but no luck so far. The parts manager wont go below $88 for a case, which is just nuts.
Just based on what I've seen, the Honda VCM6 seems to be much harder than their fours on oil. I think you could certainly take the HG Semi to 0% on the MM which should be 8,000 or so.
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Interestingly (to me anyway) is we've purchased a new Toyota Sienna V6 since then and it calls for 10,000 mile OCIs right out of the box without so much as an OLM. Since Toyota includes 2 oil changes with TGMO 0W-20 in the purchase price, I won't be able to do a UOA on that engine until 30,000.
You might consider getting one of those vaccum pumps from Blackstone or elsewhere that allows you to pull a sample through the dipstick tube. I now do all of my engine oil sampling this way and in general I pull a sample when I start to get close to thinking it is time to change it and then I know whether it needs to be changed right away or if I can leave it in for a while longer, saving some bucks on unnecessary oil changes while avoiding the risk of leaving it in too long before sampling as the oil exits the sump.
Interestingly (to me anyway) is we've purchased a new Toyota Sienna V6 since then and it calls for 10,000 mile OCIs right out of the box without so much as an OLM. Since Toyota includes 2 oil changes with TGMO 0W-20 in the purchase price, I won't be able to do a UOA on that engine until 30,000.
You might consider getting one of those vaccum pumps from Blackstone or elsewhere that allows you to pull a sample through the dipstick tube. I now do all of my engine oil sampling this way and in general I pull a sample when I start to get close to thinking it is time to change it and then I know whether it needs to be changed right away or if I can leave it in for a while longer, saving some bucks on unnecessary oil changes while avoiding the risk of leaving it in too long before sampling as the oil exits the sump.
is the 2.0 TBN something to worry about?
Originally Posted By: Arctic388
is the 2.0 TBN something to worry about?
I've run the SM version of this oil to a 7000k OCI twice in my Honda I-4 (no olm in the car, an '04) and the tbn has been around 2. Last time it was 2.1 and ALS tribology flagged it as abnormal; the previous time it was 2.3 and not flagged. Blackstone considers 1 to be low. I'll say this, the Honda oil has not impressed in my application. I've had uoa's on two other oils, pyb and shell syn 5w-20, and they both came back with a substantially higher tbn than the Honda 0w-20 at around the same miles, and had better wear metals.
is the 2.0 TBN something to worry about?
I've run the SM version of this oil to a 7000k OCI twice in my Honda I-4 (no olm in the car, an '04) and the tbn has been around 2. Last time it was 2.1 and ALS tribology flagged it as abnormal; the previous time it was 2.3 and not flagged. Blackstone considers 1 to be low. I'll say this, the Honda oil has not impressed in my application. I've had uoa's on two other oils, pyb and shell syn 5w-20, and they both came back with a substantially higher tbn than the Honda 0w-20 at around the same miles, and had better wear metals.
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Originally Posted By: OrdnanceMarine
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Interestingly (to me anyway) is we've purchased a new Toyota Sienna V6 since then and it calls for 10,000 mile OCIs right out of the box without so much as an OLM. Since Toyota includes 2 oil changes with TGMO 0W-20 in the purchase price, I won't be able to do a UOA on that engine until 30,000.
You might consider getting one of those vaccum pumps from Blackstone or elsewhere that allows you to pull a sample through the dipstick tube. I now do all of my engine oil sampling this way and in general I pull a sample when I start to get close to thinking it is time to change it and then I know whether it needs to be changed right away or if I can leave it in for a while longer, saving some bucks on unnecessary oil changes while avoiding the risk of leaving it in too long before sampling as the oil exits the sump.
Just install FUMOTO valves on both of your vehicles. You can pull a small oil sample at any time.
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Interestingly (to me anyway) is we've purchased a new Toyota Sienna V6 since then and it calls for 10,000 mile OCIs right out of the box without so much as an OLM. Since Toyota includes 2 oil changes with TGMO 0W-20 in the purchase price, I won't be able to do a UOA on that engine until 30,000.
You might consider getting one of those vaccum pumps from Blackstone or elsewhere that allows you to pull a sample through the dipstick tube. I now do all of my engine oil sampling this way and in general I pull a sample when I start to get close to thinking it is time to change it and then I know whether it needs to be changed right away or if I can leave it in for a while longer, saving some bucks on unnecessary oil changes while avoiding the risk of leaving it in too long before sampling as the oil exits the sump.
Just install FUMOTO valves on both of your vehicles. You can pull a small oil sample at any time.
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