2011 Civic R18 6.7k/19.5k mi - Idemitsu 0w20

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gpshumway

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Here's the latest UOA from my Civic. Now I am worried about the Si and Al wear. I've checked the airbox, and when fully installed it seems to be well sealed, but upon closer inspection I found some slop in the rubber boot which mates the intake pipe to the MAF sensor on the lid of the airbox.

Artem or anybody else with an R18 Civic, could you check yours for me? My rubber boot has radial play with the MAF housing such that two layers of electrical tape were required to tighten it up. The boot seems to be a face seal rather than a radial seal, so I'm not sure the electrical tape fix is doing much good. When I get the chance (hopefully this weekend) I'll remove the airbox and see if I can do a more thorough analysis.

Anyway, here's the report. I'm actually quite pleased with how the Idemitsu 0w20 held up. Not much shearing at all, though the VI dropped to a merely "good" 174. With the accuracy limits of the viscosity measurements, I suspect used oil VI measurements are quite volatile.

OilReport19564miforposting_zpsde1d7ee2.jpg


Idemitsu 0w20 SM is in the car again. I bought it from my local Subaru dealer (Morries) and the interesting thing is they'd just gotten a pretty big shipment from their supplier, and it was all still API SM. I wonder when the rumored switch to SN will actually happen and what changes we'll see in the oil.
 
Thanks for posting.
This oil only experienced a 6% viscosity loss although entirely at the expense of it's VI dropping from 197 to 174...interesting.

Yes you're going to have to get that air intake seal fixed.
 
Thanks for posting. I swapped out shell syn 5w-20 for another round of Idemitsu 0w-20 in the Accord yesterday. If you remember I also had elevated
Al (14) when I last ran it, and Honda uoa's typically
show very low Al. Perhaps peculiar to this oil? Do you have uoa's of different oil to compare ?
 
Originally Posted By: gpshumway


Idemitsu 0w20 SM is in the car again. I bought it from my local Subaru dealer (Morries) and the interesting thing is they'd just gotten a pretty big shipment from their supplier, and it was all still API SM. I wonder when the rumored switch to SN will actually happen and what changes we'll see in the oil.

When I contacted SoA a year ago, they had no idea when they would be switching to GF5 even though the switch for new oil happened a year ago. Maybe this is just all old stock.
21.gif

Quote:

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. All Subaru Synthetic Motor Oil is licensed by the American Petroleum Institute (API) as Energy Conserving SM for Gasoline Engines and GF-4 ILSAC rated.

Information on our future products is not available. We do appreciate though that you brought your interest to our attention. Your message has been documented in our Customer/Dealer Services database. This will allow for your message to be properly reviewed, tracked and considered by our Product Management Department. Subaru is always striving to improve upon our products and appreciates when our customers bring their recommendations to our attention.


And from http://www.infineum.com/Pages/gf5-11.aspx
Quote:
After September 30, 2011, the ILSAC GF-5 minimum performance standard for gasoline passenger car engine oils becomes the only basis for issuance of a license to use the API Certification Mark.


We'll definitely see a reduction in moly when the switch to GF5 occurs.

-Dennis
 
Originally Posted By: k24a4
Thanks for posting. I swapped out shell syn 5w-20 for another round of Idemitsu 0w-20 in the Accord yesterday. If you remember I also had elevated
Al (14) when I last ran it, and Honda uoa's typically
show very low Al. Perhaps peculiar to this oil? Do you have uoa's of different oil to compare ?


The first OCI after the factory fill in this engine was the new Honda Ultimate Synthetic 0w20 made by Conoco Philips. Same issue with Al. That UOA is HERE. Doesn't seem to be the oil, but with this being only the third OCI ever on this engine, it's hard to call it a trend...

I don't know why Blackstone didn't put the previous analysis on this report, I've pinged them on the problem. They also forgot my TBN. I think they're fired going forward. OAI does KV40 as part of their regular reports now, and are much cheaper.
 
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
When I contacted SoA a year ago, they had no idea when they would be switching to GF5 even though the switch for new oil happened a year ago. Maybe this is just all old stock.
21.gif


And from http://www.infineum.com/Pages/gf5-11.aspx
Quote:
After September 30, 2011, the ILSAC GF-5 minimum performance standard for gasoline passenger car engine oils becomes the only basis for issuance of a license to use the API Certification Mark.


We'll definitely see a reduction in moly when the switch to GF5 occurs.

-Dennis


Yea, that's an awful lot of old stock for my dealer to get a new batch of SM at the beginning of September 2012.

Anybody know how to interpret the batch numbers on the bottom of the Idemitsu/Subaru bottles? I have one from April and one from September.

Even if they do continue with the SM stuff, I want to switch to SN. Minnesota is upping their Ethanol content soon.
 
Here's the revised UOA with the car's history and TBN. The Al is trending downward and I think I may have found the intake leak. A sealing surface of the rubber boot that seals the MAF housing/Air cleaner lid to the intake tube had gotten folded over when assembled into the rest of the air cleaner housing. Like twisting an 0-ring when installing it, could've caused a bit of a leak. I had to take the housing out of the car to find it though, it would've been impossible to see otherwise. I'll probably take a sample at 3,000 miles to confirm I've solved the leak. Looks like UOAs are good for something besides entertainment after all.

I'm a bit surprised by the TBN at 1.8. The OLM system in this car is programmed for conventional and/or the Honda blend. I'd have expected good synthetic to show higher TBN. The oil was changed 75 miles after the OLM hit 5%. The Idemitsu product is clearly not a true long-drain oil. Unless it's like M1 and stabilizes at ~2.0 TBN for a long time, I'd hesitate to use it for 10k miles.

OilReport19564miforposting.jpg


O.T. When this car gets old, it's going to be quite a pain to work on. No room under the hood, though there is much more room behind the engine when working from below. De-carboning the intake is going to be a serious PITA. I'd better invest in a lift and an engine cradle, and hope Honda deserves their reliability reputation.
 
I'm going to be removing the entire intake manifold / system for cleaning shortly in my 07 Civic EX with 150k on it. It looks like it should come out from the top of the engine easily. The entire top cowl comes out with just a few clips and screws. It takes 3 minutes, i've done it.
 
I'd definitely get that UOA at 3000 miles you're talking about. Al is very high for a Honda I4 and Fe is a little high as well. Your first oil change numbers look to be reasonable, accounting for break-in but after that your numbers indicate you may have a problem. From 10k to 42k miles I only saw 11 PPM of Al and 21 PPM Fe even including a tear in my intake that was probably there for a couple thousand miles before I discovered it. This on a modified K20 motor that makes it to 8200-8600 RPM a few hundred times between oil changes.

You've done yourself (or whoever buys the car from you in the future) a great service by doing these UOAs. Fix this problem now and it probably won't make any difference in the usable life of the engine.
 
Originally Posted By: Artem
I'm going to be removing the entire intake manifold / system for cleaning shortly in my 07 Civic EX with 150k on it. It looks like it should come out from the top of the engine easily. The entire top cowl comes out with just a few clips and screws. It takes 3 minutes, i've done it.


Very interesting. So the sheet metal which comes very close to the top of the valve cover is easily removable? Cool. I just assumed it was part of the firewall, and therefore not easy to get out of the way for maintenance. Kudos, Honda.

I'd love to see a thread on your intake cleaning. The R18 has a built in air-oil separator which should reduce oil based intake deposits. On the other hand it makes extensive use of EGR which tends to cause intake deposits. It also has a variable runner intake manifold with moving parts that could be fouled by deposits. My old Mercury Mystique V6 had such a manifold which did suffer from deposit fouling of the variable runner mechanism. I had to do a solvent based intake cleaning on that car annually.

While I've got your attention, would you mind checking how much radial play there is between the MAF housing and the rubber intake tube there is in your car for me? See my first post for how much play there is in mine.

Thanks for the input Artem!
 
I've got zero play on the rubber tube that connects to the top of the intake lid. It's actually pretty tight... and that's after 150k of use (I pull the air filter out every 5k or so to tap any loose dirt out)

If you're getting that much play with yours, there's something wrong.
 
Thanks for checking on that for me, Artem! I'll bring it to the attention of the dealer.

I thought mine was pretty tight too until I pulled the MAF housing and then also removed the rubber tube. When I mated the two together on the bench instead of inside the car, it was a lot easier to see the slop.

Just something to think about the next time you pull the filter out.
 
These are the same type of results I have seen in my Civic. This engine appears to shed some Al. I baby the thing too and have tried quite a few oils, all UOA's I have back are high. Don't be too worried.
 
Honda has started to use Aluminum cylinder liners in their higher performance engines, this could be the culpret of the higher than past Al results from break-in wear. Just my thoughts.
 
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
And from infenium...
Quote:
After September 30, 2011, the ILSAC GF-5 minimum performance standard for gasoline passenger car engine oils becomes the only basis for issuance of a license to use the API Certification Mark.
We'll definitely see a reduction in moly when the switch to GF5 occurs.

-Dennis

Wonder what will happen when the "moly-plated" protection is absent... more or less Al wear happens ?
 
Originally Posted By: 05Blazer
Honda has started to use Aluminum cylinder liners in their higher performance engines, this could be the culpret of the higher than past Al results from break-in wear. Just my thoughts.


Does Honda even make high performance engines anymore?
 
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