SynGard High VI's with a Type III Oil

[DanMiller]

I talked to Cross ( Syngard parent company ) and they said they use Type III Bases Oil. I have never seen Viscosity Indexes this high on a line of oils. I am curious how they do it? I bought some but I haven't used it yet, their prices are good.

www.crossoil.com/lib/docs/pds/PDSFullSyntheticPCMOSNSynGard.pdf

 

[Oregoonian]

I'm sure many of us would like to see a VOA on Syngard.

Since you have some on hand, why not send a sample to Blackstone for a VOA. Be sure you get a TBN.

 

[Garak]

Those are pretty high VIs.

@CATERHAM: Take a look and see what you think.

 

[dailydriver]

Yes, CATERHAM should be LOVING these oils!!

I wonder what is the quality level of the (LARGE volume of, it seems) VIIs they're using?

 

[CATERHAM]

Dan, first welcome to BITOG?

Thanks very much for the info on SynGuard, and yes their VI's are on par with the Toyota 0W-20 and Sustina oils.
I suspect they are using the same types of high VI polymethacrylates asteric polymer VMs that the Japanese OEMs favour.
The fact that they formulate a 0W-30 (not to mention a 5W/10W-30) using this technology is a first that I know of.

These oils appear to be formulated to be very light on start-up at more typical start-up temp's as their extreme cold CCS figures just average. Pennzoil Platnium for example is better with the exception of their 10W-30 grade.

The big question is who retails these oils in the States and are they availablr in Canada?

 

[DanMiller]

Hi thanks for the welcome, I bought mine at www.oilmart.com in Winnipeg $32 for 6 Liters I haven't used it yet.

 

[A_Harman]

It's weird how the NOACK of the 5w20 is less than for the 5w30.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
It's weird how the NOACK of the 5w20 is less than for the 5w30.

I suspect their 5W-20 is a conventional formulation using more traditional copolymer VMs in light of it's relatively low 167 VI (PP 5W-20 is higher at 169) and are using somewhat heavier base stock oils than their super high VI (206) 5W-30.

It's also interesting that their 0W-30 has a slightly higher NOACK to their 0W-20 and a significantly lower CCS viscosity.
So again their 0W-30 seems to be formulated with lighter base stock oils than their 0W-20. In total it would seem a rather expensive way to formulate a range of oil grades.

The conclusion I

 

[Garak]

@DanMiller: As I mentioned in the other SynGard thread, we no longer have an Oil Mart here, unfortunately. Their prices on all oils were fairly attractive. Their office was right across the street from one of my businesses; now, their entire complex has been bulldozed.

Hey, I just figured out another "You might be a BITOGer if" thing. I must be a BITOGer because two of my businesses are within walking distance of major oil distributors (or where one used to be) - Oil Mart and Imperial Oil.

Oh, and one of my suppliers can deliver me RP without me having to leave the building.

CATERHAM - There might be an Oil Mart near you. The site lists locations. If not, don't email them or they'll want to send you a pallet or something silly. Ask me how I know!

 

[tribocessive]

hi dan miller, thanks for your great work; if you do syngard voa, please get tan also; i regret not getting tan with my sustina voa; this would be crucially important in determining oci and overall value; mpg numbers and uoa's will also be eagerly anticipated.

 

[DanMiller]

Hi I have never done a UOA, I am not sure where I would do that in Winnipeg, I have been looking to buy/try Sustina as it sounds like a great oil from what I have read. I believe it is a Gas-To-Liquid similar to Pennzoil-Platinum but with an advanced additive package.

 

[Brons2]

That 40c viscosity on the 0w30 is the lightest 40c viscosity I have ever seen on any Xw30. Also CCS is lighter than the 0w20 at -35C?? Very interesting.

 

[CATERHAM]

I spoke to Cross Oil today and the 0W-30 grade is brand new and not yet available as a packaged oil. Just the 0W-20, 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30 are available in six pack quart bottles.
Cdn cost is $32 for a 6-pack according to Dan.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: DanMiller
I believe it is a Gas-To-Liquid similar to Pennzoil-Platinum but with an advanced additive package.


How long/since when has PennzPlat been a GTL?

I never knew that before now (just thought it was a plain, old group 3+).

 

[DanMiller]

My understanding it that is what a Group III+ is a GTL and so the Synthetic oils by Pennzoil, Quaker State, and the parent company Shell oil are GTL Based Oils.
I believe Shell is the largest GTL producer in the World.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: DanMiller

I believe Shell is the largest GTL producer in the World.

You're right about that in fact I believe they are the only GTL base oil producer in the world.
dailydriver's point is that they haven't made an across the board switch from GP III to GTL yet; at least not from the PDS's we've seen. I'm sure that question will be asked on Sept 27th during the Pennzoil Twitter dialog.

 

[DanMiller]

I was reading that Eneos Sustina uses a GTL Base Oil, I am not sure how true that is. I was also reading there is an GTL Plant in Korea I can't remember who owns that but it wasn't Shell.
Update : Generally Speaking my understanding of Synthetic base oils in North America : Type V base oils are the most expensive / best (Esters) followed by Type IV ( PAOs ) tied with Type III+ (GTL) and then closely followed by Type III HydroCracked. And the blending of the different types along with the Additive packages are the keys to producing a top quality oil

 

[DanMiller]

Getting back to why I started this my main question is how does Syngard get such a high VI when they are using a Type III base oil that typically has a lower VI than a Type IV ( PAO ) and Type V ( Ester ) ? Are they just using more additives ?

 

[CATERHAM]

According to the Sept issue of Lubes 'N' Greases there are two GTL plants in the world. The big one in Qatar, and the small one in Malaysia. They're both owned by Shell.

The Sustina 0W-20 base oil is GP III+ and could be GTL based.
The base oil has a natural VI of 145 with a finished VI of 229.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, to acheive the ultra high VIs the usually used olefin copolymers won't work because their VI is not high enough. They use a new class of polymethacrylate (PMA) polymers called Asteric that has a very high VI. Lubrizol first developed this new VII in 2008 and I'm sure they have a patent on it.
German based Evonik also has a new patented PMA technology that uses a similar branched polymer with a very high VI and it also is being used in some Japanese engine oils.

Undoubtedly SynGard is using one of these advanced very high VI PMA polymers to acheive their very high final VI's with just GP III base oils.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Undoubtedly SynGard is using one of these advanced very high VI PMA polymers to acheive their very high final VI's with just GP III base oils.


Which begs the question;

Do the boutique oils which start with a high percentage of group 4/5 basestocks have to use VERY much less of even these supposedly GREAT PMA VIIs to achieve the same VI levels as the group 3/3+ basestocked oils??