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#2739283 - 09/10/12 12:48 AM Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals?
bradworks03 Offline


Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 1
Loc: CT
Hello, I just bought a 98 Toyota Avalon with 70k. It leaks oil out both valve covers, and apparently the camshaft and/or crank seals. It sometimes emits blue smoke on startup, even after sitting only a few hours, but usually no smoke, even after being parked overnight. (It is parked on a downslope overnight.)

I pulled the front valve cover to check for sludge and it looks pretty bad to me. (See pics below) I plan to use Kreen with my oil.

I plan on replacing the valve cover gaskets, timing belt kit with water pump, crank and valve seals. I did replace the PCV valve with a Puralator from Advance.

I would appreciate suggestions on the following:
1) Should I clean the sludge manually when replacing the gaskets and camshaft seals? If so, what is the recommended procedure (without removing the heads)? Is it necessary to clean out the oil pan?
2)Should I replace the valve stem seals (because of the blue smoke on startup)? Or will cleaning the sludge take care of the blue smoke? If so, is the "Valvemaster" tool from Toyotool a good one to use, or is there a better one? Valvemaster video
3)Should I wait to drive the car until after this work is done?
4) Any other suggestions or factors to consider? Thanks in advance.



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#2739292 - 09/10/12 01:46 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
djb Offline


Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 432
Loc: Maryland
Sludge? Sludge? I just see a light coating of varnish.

Are you keeping this car for shows? You might get extra points for the factory-original oil fill.

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#2739293 - 09/10/12 01:51 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
MrQuackers Online   content


Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 805
Loc: Oregon
Tasty! Extreme OCI shocked
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#2739312 - 09/10/12 04:16 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 20177
Loc: NY
Wow that was after 70K miles? Looks like 170K and the oil was never changed. I'd do manual cleaning of the heads, drop the oil pan and clean that up too, along with anything related to the oil pump. I wouldn't expect miracles that's for sure. Make sure there isn't coolant finding its way into the oil.
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#2739314 - 09/10/12 04:28 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 2796
Loc: SE PA
Sure, kreen will clean that right up bop puke
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2013 Mustang GT500.


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#2739315 - 09/10/12 04:31 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: demarpaint]
Turk Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 7695
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Wow that was after 70K miles? Looks like 170K and the oil was never changed. I'd do manual cleaning of the heads, drop the oil pan and clean that up too, along with anything related to the oil pump. I wouldn't expect miracles that's for sure. Make sure there isn't coolant finding its way into the oil.


Wow. puke

+1. Manual cleaning + Kreen.

Change the PCV.

_________________________
03 GMC Sierra 4x4 194k PU
00 Saturn SL2 89 YO Lady Car. 69k Miles! PU
98 Saturn SC2 "Red Hot" PYB + LubeGard Biotech
97 Camry 207k Maxlife


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#2739337 - 09/10/12 06:22 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
eagle23 Offline


Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 414
Loc: Roswell GA
I had a 95 Camry with the same engine I bought used with 33k, with similar symptoms of blue puff of smoke on start up that started about two months or so later. I got it from a good dealer along with an extended warranty.

That photo illustrates how badly those engines could sludge so quickly. It wouldn't surprise me to learn the previous owner actually did reasonable oil change intervals, unawares of the festering problem. Toyota denied it was a problem until some years later when they gave some sort of extended warranty coverage, which I didn't qualify for due to my higher mileage.

(In 1998 there was no BITOG nor was I aware of the critical importance of the PCV on these very sludge-prone engines).

When the dealer pulled the valve cover, it looked like that, but still in the brown gelatinous stage. I had looked down the oil fill hole before purchase to see if any sludge, but Toyota has that baffle with the black crinkle finish there, so you can't see anything meaningful. Understandably, the warranty company wouldn't cover it.

Long story short, the dealer remanned the heads (a nice job, too), but I am not sure they cleaned the oil pump. You may want to try some other steps before doing the valve stem seals, but your thinking along those lines is spot on.

I drove that Camry symptom free for another 90,000 miles when the oil light came on and it locked up. I ended up replacing that engine with a used one, drove that one for another 50,000 and sold the car to my GF at the time. Just to be sure, I pulled the valve cover on that used engine (I wasn't going to sell her a mess) and it was spotless. I'd been using synthetic for both engines, probably Mobil 1 at the time.

There is another lengthy thread here in BITOG of someone working with the same engine.

I would clean what you can manually first, and pull the oil pan to clean the oil pump screen and anything else you can get to. My engine later had a rear main seal leak, which went right on the exhaust pipe = major stench at stop signs and red lights. The warranty covered that, but I have to suspect it was related to the sludge.

To pull the oil pan I think you have to slightly raise the engine to clear the front cross member (this may not be true on the Avalon, but it and the Camry share designs). If you have to pull the oil pan, the rear main seal would be really logical.

I'd also Kreen the bejeebers out of it (at proper dosing), changing oil filters at no more than 500 mile intervals, 2-3 times over.

After the heads were redone, mine didn't burn oil...maybe a quart every 4-5k, which I don't consider oil consumption at all. I haven't owned the car for nearly 10 years now so am a bit rusty on that point, but it wasn't much.

It will be a project, but if you're up to it could be rewarding. If you end up going with a used engine, pull the valve cover on it before you buy, to make sure. Free of this issue, these Toyota engines last almost indefinitely. Given the very low miles on your Avalon, that could be the way to go vs. the longer process described here. It depends on how much time and attention you want to give it as a project.

Keep us posted, and we loooove pix here wink

HTH

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#2739344 - 09/10/12 06:32 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: eagle23]
fusion0389 Offline


Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 105
Loc: Virginia
Woah, those pics look nasty... Its unfortunate you got stuck with the problem, best of luck getting it cleaned up.

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#2739345 - 09/10/12 06:35 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1575
Loc: London, England
Wow. That is a sticy mess.

Toyotas of that era have a reputation as being bulletproof.

Though the Camry which is similar never sold well in the UK.

The Toyota Carina E and later Avensis where the family sized saloons of the time.

In fact they were known to take extreme abuse in the hands of minicab drivers. The Asian (Pakistani and Indian) drivers used to swear by their ability to take abuse.

I wonder if they were like this inside all along or maybe the cooler UK temperatures helped prevent it.

Saab Turbos (GM era) had real sludge issues however and also camchain problems relating to sludge.

Would really like to see this after the clean up has been completed. A good example of what this Kreen stuff that forum.users talk of.

Good luck with this OP.
_________________________
06 Clio1.5DCi,109k, 6kOCI Mobil 1 0w40
08 Pathfinder 2.5 Dci,117k, 5kOCI Mobil Super 5w30 FE
12 Jaguar XJL 3.0 D Luxury 95k 8kOCI Jaguar oil???

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#2739351 - 09/10/12 06:49 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
Phishin Offline


Registered: 05/01/12
Posts: 1361
Loc: Indiana
This is how I manually cleaned the valve train on my 1990 K1500 truck. It was almost that bad. But not quite.

I found all the drain holes for the oil and plugged them (rolled up wads of paper towels or something similiar I think. Then I folded and laid some paper towels in the deepest part of the valleys and tried to get them them under the cam.

I then sprayed the snot out of everything with brake part cleaner. Use paper towels to sop up the solvent and crud. Wide everything down while it's still wet with solvent. Repeat, Repeat, Repeat, Repeat. Oh, and Repeat. It's nasty. Get some latex gloves. As soon as I had everything cleaned as well as I could (use some Q-tips and tooth-picks to get into tight spots, I sprayed a full can of break part cleaner on each side just to give it one more big rinse. Mop up the solvent. Unplug the drain holes.

I sprayed a load of solvent down each drain hole to make sure the passages were clean. If they fill up, you got problems. Wait and see if it will unplug.

Then I sprayed everything with motor oil to prevent it from rusting.

Changed oil.

With fresh oil, added 1/2 quart of Kreen. Go drive it. Kreen will flash off in 200-500 miles most likely. Check oil level all the time. I continually add fresh Kreen to my treatments (same oil OC) every 500 or so miles until the oil is so dark, I have to start over.

Someone might say I'm crazy, but this is what I'm doing and how I cleaned my valve train.
_________________________
2010 Accord-LX K24: M1 0w20/0w40 Mix
2009 Subaru Forester 2.5X: M1 5w40 TDT
1990 Chevy K1500 350TBI: Frankenbrew
2008 Ruckus 50ccGET: M1R Mix

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#2739366 - 09/10/12 07:19 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
ABerns Offline


Registered: 08/11/10
Posts: 407
Loc: Iowa
Part of me would worry about dislodging some crud and clogging passageways with a manual clean. However, nobody else seems concerned as long as you take precautions (such as mentioned by Phishin), and I trust the input of forum members here. So I would think a manual cleaning is in order.

Although I am tempted to tell you to just use a HDEO and re-post pictures every 1000 miles, just for an experiment for the board :-)

Oh, and of course, welcome

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#2739374 - 09/10/12 07:44 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
electrolover Offline


Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 3192
Loc: TEXAS
seems like a common problem with these engines....
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2004 F150 5.4 160k-Castrol TXT 5/40, Distance+ 3410-KREEN
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#2739404 - 09/10/12 08:41 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 9492
Loc: Illinois
I would clean this up by hand, both the head area and then remove the pan and clean that. If you try to clean as you run the engine, sludge may clog the oil pick and ruin the engine. I have seen this happen. After completely cleaning the engine then go with M1 5-30HM and change every 3-5K for 2-3 oil changes then go out to 10K OCIs .
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 133,000 miles
M1 0-20
2007 Ford Focus 122,000 miles
M1 0-20
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF
M1 10-30 in all OPE

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#2739412 - 09/10/12 08:51 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
Andy636 Offline


Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 322
Loc: Romania
First of all I would like to say: HOLLY MOTHER OF SLUDGE!!!
If you intend to keep this vehicle I would pull out the heads and do an off the car cleaning. You can let them soak in diesel overnight or look for a shop around you that has an ultrasonic cleaning installation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWs_8RyBLyo

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#2739455 - 09/10/12 09:42 AM Re: Sludge: Clean before Kreen? New valve stem seals? [Re: bradworks03]
stephen9666 Online   sick


Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 2323
Loc: USA
Trolling or a joke, possibly?
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2010 VW Jetta 5-speed
1999 Nissan Frontier 5-speed
2000 VW Beetle 5-speed (wife's car)
2007 Hyundai Sonata 5-speed (recently sold)

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