Service engine code P0430

[raidermark]

Wow,
I'm glad you told me that. I'll try that. Without looking at it right now I'm wondering how far the the tip will set when it gets threaded. I guess what your saying is that the senser doesn't have to completely thread all the way, it can stop when the tip flushes with the bottom of the fouler. I hope it threads enough. It comes with a washer also.

 

[LeakySeals]

To clarify, the sensor has to thread all the way into the fouler tight the same as it would into the exhaust. Otherwise you will have an exhaust leak. When the sensor and fouler are tight together the tip/bulb of the sensor will slightly protrude from the hole you made. If it cant do that you need to widen the hole.

Because this device is made for spark plugs, the o2 sensor bulb tip is just a hair too long. Your modding it for use with a o2 sensor, all your doing.

Use the sides of the drill bit to enlarge the hole till the sensor tip fits, and the sensor body can tighten to the fouler.

Put the bit you say is too small in the hole you made, angle it so it bites and shaves it down. A small round file will work too. The hole you made for the sensor tip doesn't have to be perfectly round.

Go up and down with the drill running in the hole you made shaving the sides down till it fits, maybe that's a better description.

It has a washer that was for spark plug use. Maybe use that between the two will help. But they must be tight together so there's no exhaust leak.

 

[raidermark]

Thanks a lot, I got it done. It was able to thread all the way tight. The tip of the senser is about 1/8" or less inside the fouler with fouler & senser tightened all the way. I used anti seize on the threads. The 9/16" drill worked perfectly. Now I'll let the truck go through a couple of warm up to cool down cycles to see if the engine light goes off. I'll keep you posted . Thanks again!

 

[LeakySeals]

I hope you mean only 1/8" of the tip is sticking out of the fouler, the rest of the tip is inside the fouler.. If not, you may need to use the un drilled second one to cap it off.

 

[raidermark]

No, 1/8" is inside to the tip, not outside.

 

[LeakySeals]

Does it look like the "After" image?

 

[raidermark]

No. It doesn't stick out of the fouler, it come's about within 1/8" inside to the end of the fouler. The senser in the picture is exact of the senser I have.

 

[LeakySeals]

Ahh so the whole tip is inside the fouler. Good. should work. if it doesn't after a couple of days the second fouler you haven't drilled goes over the end capping it off completely.

 

[raidermark]

I have to thank Leaky Seals a whole lot. This worked after one trip - "warm up / cool down" cycle. The CEL is now off. I hooked up my OBd II reader & only one moniter system is blinking which is acceptable to pass smog. The procedure was so simple too. 9/16" size drill for my Chevy senser, penetrating oil to get the senser off & 20 min. of my time. How awesome is this.
Thanks to all who responded.

 

[MarkM66]

Great. Yeah, there should be a sticky here; P0420 and P0430 = do O2 extender!

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: MarkM66
You can also buy O2 extenders on ebay, if you don't want to modify the anti foulers.


Vibrant Performance also sells these with a bunch of "jet" inserts to let varying levels of the exhaust stream get to the O2 sensor.

But this sytem costs a relative fortune (~$25.00/each) compared to the chain store anti-foulers, or the online extenders. They are stainless steel however.

 

[LeakySeals]

Some questions have been asked recently about performing this modification. I will try to explain it in perspective.

Unlike other CEL codes a P0420/P0430 is not a hard failure code. Its a warning that the catalyst efficiency has gone below the threshold set by the manufacturer. An actual catalytic converter "failure" has no code. A failure would be a fracturing or a plugging of the catalyst media, broken or rusted shell causing an exhaust leak. That would be accompanied by other symptoms like bad engine performance, stalling, or the catalyst efficiency threshold warning code.

The catalyst efficiency threshold set by the manufacturers is generic and does not consider the smog requirements of each state. Each state has different smog emission standards. They can be lower, higher, or not at all. Because the catalyst efficiency settings don't match the states smog requirements, you can fail the inspection for a catalyst efficiency CEL, yet pass the state smog test.

Most state inspections consist of safety, mechanical, and emissions. Check the tires, check the codes, sniff the exhaust. Prior to inspection, you need to extinguish CEL's, have the car tuned pretty well to pass the smog test. The smog test results can be influenced by tuneups, o2 sensors, new cat.

The antifouler does not influence or change any any of the emission results. It simply lowers the manufacturer catalyst efficiency threshold which causes the CEL to go out. The antifouler is not a repair so one day you will fail the state smog emissions test. Or it will plug up on you, causing stalling, etc. It is then you will need to replace the cat.

 

[Phishin]

I have read several places that packing the after-CAT O2 sensor with red RTV works to. Prohibits the sensor from detecting oxygen, yet doesn't let the computer think the sensor is faulty.

Anyone try this?

 

[LeakySeals]

I've never heard of doing that, maybe somebody that has will respond. Do you have a link to info?

Analyzing it the cost of the RTV and the antifouler are roughly the same. I would question if the RTV could withstand the heat. Once you do it there is no reversing, the sensors done. If you install a new cat some day, you can simply remove the anti-fouler.

 

[Vikas]

The only flaw in your reasoning is that most of the states no longer do real tailpipe emission on OBD-II cars and rely on the on-board car computer to tell them that it is not polluting. If the CEL is on, that immediately implies that the computer can NOT make the non-pollution assertion and hence it is automatic fail. It is like honor system, so you should understand why anti-fouler will be considered cheating at least in the state where no tailpipe emissions are checked.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
The only flaw in your reasoning is that most of the states no longer do real tailpipe emission on OBD-II cars and rely on the on-board car computer to tell them that it is not polluting. If the CEL is on, that immediately implies that the computer can NOT make the non-pollution assertion and hence it is automatic fail. It is like honor system, so you should understand why anti-fouler will be considered cheating at least in the state where no tailpipe emissions are checked.

I see no flaw, no cheating lets analyze.

States still check both OBD-II and smog emissions. I think its more than you claim.

If your asserting that the states are hooking up to the OBD-II port to check smog emissions point me to something supporting that claim. A P0420 CEL is telling you how efficiently the cat is processing gasses, not the amount of gasses, something only an emission smog test can do.

Your assertion suggests that states are relying on auto manufacturers to dictate emission policy. Japan? South Korea? Germany? I doubt that. Each one of them sets a different efficiency, they do their own thing. They cant configure a car for each state, and and even if they could, they would have to add the capacity to sniff smog levels. I doubt the states are actually relying on codes to determine smog output.

Who says its cheating? Your suggesting that you can only put out a CEL by a government approved repair manual that dictates what/how things should be repaired? Is replacing the o2 sensor to put out the light cheating? Is replacing the cat to put out the light cheating? They affect emissions output. The anti fouler does not. Which leads back into my other reply that the cat efficiency CEL isn't even a failure code.

I failed inspection for a P0420 CEL. Put it out with the anti-fouler. went back the next day to the same people. Told them the the computer was too sensitive, nothing wrong with the cat and I fixed it. They said ok, tested for smog, gave me the sticker. They don't care so long as their testing passes.

I just don't see where this comes from, sorry. I assume its from people that have never done it, and don't quite understand, heard things on the internet, i don't know.

 

[Vikas]

I know for sure that NYS and MASS (Ref: Frank) *only* hook up the scanner for the smog test. I am sure there are lot more states which have taken this route. So far only CA actually puts a sniffer on the OBD-II car. Since you are from MA/NH area, I am assuming your vehicle is registered in NH. Does NH actually do the tailpipe emission test? I know they used to do that in pre-OBDII era in Nashua/Manchester region. Can you post your results?

Mind you, I am agreeing with you almost 99% regarding the extender use. My first car got the extender in 2005/2006 and now all three vehicles have extenders. I suspect I am one of the earlier adopter of the extender. I am betting I did that before you did I have saved published papers from Colorado State Clean Air which agree with your (and mine!) claims that vehicles with active P0420 do routinely pass real emission test with flying colors. So personally, I am with you as far not feeling any guilt over it. However, I am giving you the rationale as to why most states consider CEL to be automatic rejection. Come to think of it, I recall NH failed me when my ABS warning light was on even though ABS is not required on all vehicles. Essentially any warning light on the dash means automatic failure of inspection/emission in almost all the states.

 

[LeakySeals]

Gotcha. Sounds logical. The example I gave of the anti-fouler was a 97 I no longer own. The 02 Camry in miy sig (also has an anti-fouler) goes by the new ODB II emission testing.

Regarding the 1% in dispute:

The Mass DMV emission testing requirements states the following:

Both gasoline and diesel fuel contain mixtures of hydrocarbons, which are compounds that contain both hydrogen and carbon atoms. In a “perfect” engine, oxygen from the air would convert all of the fuel’s hydrogen to water, and carbon to carbon dioxide. But no combustion process is perfect, so both gasoline and diesel vehicles are equipped with emission control systems that reduce (but do not eliminate) pollutants that can be harmful to the environment or public health.
What is the definition of "reduce but do not eliminate"? reduce to what? I'm reducing but not eliminating with the anti-fouler on. My cars not perfect, but its pretty good!

Readiness.
Is your vehicle’s OBD system “ready” to be tested? As your vehicle drives, the OBD system checks the performance of various emissions-related components and systems. If the OBD system has not performed enough of these self-checks, your vehicle is “not ready” for an emissions test.

To pass the emissions test:
2000 and older model year vehicles may have a maximum of two (2) “not ready” non-continuous monitors.
2001 and newer model year vehicles may have a maximum of one (1) “not ready” non-continuous monitor.
If the vehicle failed the emissions test with a catalytic converter-related diagnostic trouble code, the vehicle’s catalyst monitor must be “ready” to pass the retest."
The anti-fouler accomplishes this

Check Engine Light.
Is the Check Engine light (sometimes labeled as “Service Engine Soon”) turned on? When this light is turned on, it indicates that one or more components of your vehicle’s emission control system is not working as it was designed to work, and repairs are needed. If the light does not turn on when the OBD system tries to turn it on, this problem must be corrected.
The anti-fouler was the repair, and does not tamper with the OBD systems attempt to turn it on. Because the efficiency has been lowered, it doesnt want to turn it on. No different than the Toyota TSB for catalyst efficiency ECU reprogramming (see below)

And this sir, is the 1% smoking gun. If modifying the catalyst efficiency CEL sensitivity with an antifouler is wrong, then this Toyota TSB is wrong also.

TSB EG024-04

Some 2002 – 2004 model year Camry vehicles equipped with the 4 cylinder (2AZ–FE)
engine may exhibit a M.I.L. “ON” condition with Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0420
(Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold, Bank 1) in the Engine Control Module
(ECM) (SAE term: Powertrain Control Module/PCM). The ECM (PCM) logic has been
modified and a redesigned catalyst has been provided.
Toyota replaces the cat, reprograms the ECU. Why bother reprogramming if the efficiency threshold is not an issue? Did they get permission from our govt to do this? Doubt it. Rather than reprogram and buy a new cat, I'll just lower the efficiency threshold myself, thanks!

 

[Vikas]

I am with you on that TSB. Nissan did the same with my Maxima i.e. tweaked the ECM parameter first but it still tripped the cat efficiency code again. Fortunately, I caught it just at 79800 miles and got a new few pre-cat from Nissan. But that car has two and the second one tripped after 100K and the car no longer eligible for the free TSB or pre-cat.

The actual FTP (Federal Testing Procedure) standard for tail-pipe emissions are lot less stringent than the 95% selected by vehicle manufacturers. I have never really understood that rationale.

We need to cut down on this chatter though. If we keep talking, the computer could be programmed to detect the abnormally low flow on the the post cat O2 sensor and trip the CEL. Let us keep this our own little secret

- Vikas

 

[Vikas]

I like arguing with you; so let us continue on our 1% disagreement

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals

If your asserting that the states are hooking up to the OBD-II port to check smog emissions point me to something supporting that claim.


I am going to turn this around. I just verified that NH does only OBD-II check as a part of their emission test and so do Mass and NY. From chevyboy's comments, his state (MO?) has the same methodology. Come to think of it, I know no state other than CA which does real tailpipe emission test anymore on OBD-II equipped cars.

The ball is in your court. *You* tell me which states do actually put a sniffer on the vehicle!

- Vikas