400°C Oil Test?

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This is just the first test in row of tests oils will be put to. VOAs and some UOAs will follow. It seems GC may be added too. The majority of oils were supplied by car enthisiasts. The community also donated and helps to perform these tests. Some oils and another part of financing are provided by a technical center which has originated this study.

The purpose is to understand oxidation resistance of actually available oils (including OEMs oils vs. claimed brand analogues) in view of supposed considerable contribution of this factor to sludge and varnish in many gasoline engines, especially hot running ones, under sever conditions like numerous traffic jams in winter and summer time, and widely promoted extended OCIs (in case of E.Europe region it means over 10K km, but not more than 20K km).

Particularly in this test oils were exposed to 400C during 1 hour. Though there are some parts where oil touches surfaces heated to about 400C, this temperature was simply used to speed up the process. Personally I think 200C or, at the outside, 250C would be more appropriate, but most likely in the framework of financing and time it would be very difficult, if impossible, to do. At the same time results themselves are very interesting and illustrating. After exposure to heating oils break down to phases. Polymerized residue in the flask and residue in the snout this is what is often found under the cover. The biggest surprise is how bad some OEM oils performed. Also interesting that all North American oils tested till now performed really well. But the biggest enigma is performance of mineral Lukoil and one of the guesses is that in reality the stuff is better that it's claimed on the label.

For the moment only a part of all oils were exposed to 400C, so results with others (suppose over 70 in total) will be displayed upon fullfilment of lab tests.
 
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Primus, thanks for the update. Since 400C is well above the oils' flashpoints, was the air around the oil deficient enough in oxygen to prevent the oils from catching on fire?
 
Heywood shows a non-turbo, 2.5L instrumented four-cylinder engine's piston temps at 4,000rpm and at W.O.T.

The temps varied from 196C at the skirt to 250C at the ring area. So the oil scraped off the cylinder walls will probably be around 250C or 482F.

When speaking of oil temperatures you must differentiate between bulk oil temperature and isolated hot spots.

The bulk oil temperature is the temperature in the sump as picked up by the oil pump. Heat transfer in the sump and between the oil and coolant reduces the hot spot temps of the scraped oil to the bulk oil temperature.

I did an experiemnt this summer on my PathFinder on one of the hottest days and monitored the water temp using an OBDII reader.

At 105F outside air temp, the water temp only peaked to 194F, so the bulk oil temp probably varied between 205 to 220F. This was in stop and go traffic.
 
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All the test reveals is which oils leave surface residue when
supjected to very high temperatures (from that surface).
It would have been more interesting to see all oils filtered afterwards.
 
The temps varied from 196C at the skirt to 250C at the ring area. So the oil scraped off the cylinder walls will probably be around 250C or 482F.

The combustion temps that the oil on the cyl walls is in direct contact with is even hotter than the piston temps.
But oil on cyl walls is cooled by coolant, by incoming intake air, and by replenishment from splash.
Contact with hot gasses and pistons is momentary. Time is needed to allow heat transfer - depending on the thermal conductivity of the fluid.

So no way is the cyl wall oil that close to the piston ring area temps.
Those cited temps are about the average flash point of many oils.
And oil would break down chemically very quickly at those temps.
This leaves no margin, and I don't think that they are happening.
 
Hi,
on a typical OTR engine for interest's sake the pyrometer management operates as follows:

Normal - 350C
Warning - 440C
Engine powerdown/shutdown - 580C

HDEOs constantly operate in this range with 300C being common on the flat and 420C on climbs. On long climbs the 400C range may last for several minutes, perhaps up to a half hour etc. The engine's lubricant plays a very important cooling role in turbocharger operation and as such is the most important component in their durability. A rapid shutting down of an engine after a long climb at around 400-450C is most detrimental to the health of the lubricant in this location causing rapid oxidation and deposit buildup
 
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Originally Posted By: JAG
Since 400C is well above the oils' flashpoints, was the air around the oil deficient enough in oxygen to prevent the oils from catching on fire?


Hi JAG,
Very good point. In case there was not enough oxygen to catch on fire then probably the processes of aging and thermodestruction went hand by hand. For the moment I don't know whether flasks were closed or open, but sometimes it is very difficult to predict what is better in preventing contact with oxygen. Everything depends on small details. For example, during asphalt modification tank is often not completely closed to prevent access of air in addition to that which is already available inside the tank, however fumes create certain interlayer that separates asphalt from contact with new air, so aeration may be quite limited. I think in our case the most important is the air volume inside the flasks. Nevertherless, I will try to get some more details from the author.

I believe it would be better to move this topic to the thread "European and Import Motor Oils", if it's possible. The same concerns the topic "European Studies on Oils" I hope our moderators can arrange this. Thank you in advance.
 
Like I said, the cited temps are problematic concerning flashpoints of oil.

No O2 to cause harm/burning? Really?
Then how does the engine run? The O2 in the intake air is in direct contact with the cyl wall oil in gas or diesel engines.
Immediate contact would result in problems with every intake stroke!
My point is that the oil is not that hot there.
 
mechtech2, I am sorry, but obvioulsy there is some misunderstanding. Firstly, I would point out that "not enough oxygen" and "No O2" are not the same. Secondly, this is a lab test where an oil is heated in a flask with obvioulsy limited amount of oxygen and/or under possibly limited aeration (and without any catalizor like with ICOT) and this is not the same as an oil in running engine. At the same time this test did not have a purpose to exactly simulate conditions in real engine, but to evaluate how this or that oil may withstand to oxidation. As I've already mentionned personally I would prefer to see 200C or, at the outside, 250C, but the author has decided to use 400C and he had some reasons to speed up the process. So, I would not be too critical of him. In the end we are witnessing once again that not all oils are the same in this area.
 
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I wonder if this test has any practical value? It looks to me that boiling an oil "at 400 deg" is like boiling water "at 200 deg". In fact the boiling temperature of water will never exceed 100 deg. I would guess that the boiling temperature of oils may depend on the actual chemistry and the base quality. You cannot just assume that the boiling oil and the heater have the same temperature.

Primus, are you personally involved in this test?
 
That crud from the BMW 5W30 looks a lot like the crud that fills up under the valve covers of so many a 3.0i. If I had one of those this would have me thinking it's time to look and see if that Luk oil is available cheap, or maybe just switch to the Mobil 1 0w40 that held up decently.
 
I just wished we could get the light BMW LL-01 FE 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) oil in Canada but BMW Canada won't stock it.
Don't know about the States, but if anyone is interested the part number is 8321 0 144 462 which has been replaced according to my local BMW parts guy with # 8312 2 219 738.
 
Originally Posted By: Prelude
I wonder if this test has any practical value? It looks to me that boiling an oil "at 400 deg" is like boiling water "at 200 deg". In fact the boiling temperature of water will never exceed 100 deg. I would guess that the boiling temperature of oils may depend on the actual chemistry and the base quality. You cannot just assume that the "boiling" oil and the heater have the same temperature.

Primus, are you personally involved in this test?


Hi Prelude !
I'm involved in it like any other reader who is eager to understand what we are offered today. Naturally, the temperature puts a false color on how this or that oil will behave in a real life. That's why I gave some critical comments there. From other hand, this test clearly shows a trend or eventual reserves in this area.

I think that rather than to discuss whether or not this test is relevant to a real life it would be more interesting to find out why some cheap oils performed better than more expensive ones.
 
Originally Posted By: Primus

Naturally, the temperature puts a false color on how this or that oil will behave in a real life. That's why I gave some critical comments there. From other hand, this test clearly shows a trend or eventual reserves in this area.

I think that rather than to discuss whether or not this test is relevant to a real life it would be more interesting to find out why some cheap oils performed better than more expensive ones.


Well put!

Thanks for posting this interesting study. Although I'm not familiar with some of the oils, it's remarkable to see how some oils have much better resistance to oxidation/evaporation at those temps. It's probably a combination of better base oils and additive pack. Case in point, 15W40 oils did much better than some exotic synth oils. Motul oils did terribly.

The ones that stand out and are familiar to me are: Toyota, Mobile 1 (but not "New Life"), BMW (some weights only), and Castrol Edge (but not "Professional" or "Sport").

As for the criticism you are getting here, don't worry. When I did a similar study a year ago, 90% responses were negative and some very insulting. I can tell you that majority of active BITOG members are clueless teenagers itching to pick a fight.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Primus, thanks for the update. Since 400C is well above the oils' flashpoints, was the air around the oil deficient enough in oxygen to prevent the oils from catching on fire?


flashpoint doen't mean spontaneous ignition.

Quote:
The flash point of a volatile material is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. Measuring a flash point requires an ignition source. At the flash point, the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point
 
Originally Posted By: rogan
All the test reveals is which oils leave surface residue when supjected to very high temperatures (from that surface).


and this is exactly the residue that forms in ring pack areas when oil is exposed to very hot pistons.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
The temps varied from 196C at the skirt to 250C at the ring area. So the oil scraped off the cylinder walls will probably be around 250C or 482F.

The combustion temps that the oil on the cyl walls is in direct contact with is even hotter than the piston temps.
But oil on cyl walls is cooled by coolant, by incoming intake air, and by replenishment from splash.
Contact with hot gasses and pistons is momentary. Time is needed to allow heat transfer - depending on the thermal conductivity of the fluid.

So no way is the cyl wall oil that close to the piston ring area temps.
Those cited temps are about the average flash point of many oils.
And oil would break down chemically very quickly at those temps.
This leaves no margin, and I don't think that they are happening.


It's fine that you don't think so, but it doesn't mean it's not happening.

Oil scrapped from cylinders does circulate through ring pack and heats up to the piston temps.

Prove me that it's not happening please.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Like I said, the cited temps are problematic concerning flashpoints of oil.

No O2 to cause harm/burning? Really?
Then how does the engine run? The O2 in the intake air is in direct contact with the cyl wall oil in gas or diesel engines.
Immediate contact would result in problems with every intake stroke!
My point is that the oil is not that hot there.


You also don't understand what flashpoint is. See post above.
 
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