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#2648844 - 06/08/12 07:08 PM Redline break in additive check out the MSDS
jsnyder49090 Offline


Registered: 05/31/12
Posts: 346
Loc: south haven mi
How come i havent seen this on any oil additive threads to me it seems like the best i have ever seen myself??? http://www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com/tech_tips/tech_tips_Zincadditive_amount.html looks like i could get by with a couple oz of this and i think its like 10.95 at my speed shop ..


Edited by jsnyder49090 (06/08/12 07:09 PM)
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#2648847 - 06/08/12 07:18 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: jsnyder49090]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 16948
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Red Line's additive has been mentioned here before.

The chart there is also a good reminder to dose things properly. One bottle of the additive in a five quart sump will result in a corrosive level of ZDDP. The half bottle recommendation makes much more sense.

In any case, what oil is the assumption based upon? After all, modern API oils do have ZDDP, usually from 600 to 800 ppm. HDEOs tend to have 1200 or so. Beware one's starting point, too.
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Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 51358
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2648891 - 06/08/12 08:01 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: Garak]
jsnyder49090 Offline


Registered: 05/31/12
Posts: 346
Loc: south haven mi
For sure Garak i would only use 1/4 bottle if that,i think we are all only getting 800ppm max unless you use 15w up or a high dollar race oil.I dont believe the specs on the manufacters site,how can 10w30 VR1 and 20w/50 have the same amount of zinc? I think they have read some of these threads and are taking advantage of our desire to keep are engines alive with zinc.I dont believe the Defy is over 800 ppm either.
_________________________
99 Regal LS
98 Regal GS L67
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83 Buick LeSabre Limited
97 Regal GS L67
78 Granada 42,000 orig miles

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#2648904 - 06/08/12 08:20 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: jsnyder49090]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 16948
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Well, we went through the 10w-30 versus the 20w-50 in the other thread. Defy is above 800 ppm, at least according to SOPUS customer service. Do recall that plenty of HM oils have no API or ILSAC rating at all.

Until the PQIA happens to compare the HM oils, we'll really never know. As for the Red Line stuff, I'm not positive, but I believe Red Line themselves might have a chart that's based upon a certain baseline ZDDP level, to make things easier.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 51358
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2649486 - 06/09/12 02:13 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: jsnyder49090]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29810
Loc: NJ
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#2649677 - 06/09/12 06:14 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: jsnyder49090]
vo_marz Offline


Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 128
Loc: UK
I dose only up to 1250-1400 PPM for Group 4 stuff
some oils ,like mobil racing, doesnt require any (1550-2200PPM)

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#2649678 - 06/09/12 06:16 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: jsnyder49090]
doitmyself Offline


Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 5194
Loc: MI
I'm surprised Red Line used this terminology: "Allow pistons rings to seat properly with less-slick oil,"

My chops got busted here recently for using the term "less slippery" in a break in oil discussion. spank
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#2649683 - 06/09/12 06:25 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: doitmyself]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 16948
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Well, you might be right when speaking of aftermarket rebuilds, rather than an OEM new motor. Red Line is certainly targeting the aftermarket rebuild market.
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Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 51358
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2650298 - 06/10/12 01:27 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: jsnyder49090]
m37charlie Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 1246
Loc: Alaska
I brought it to Redline's attention that 16.6 gm S + 9.4gm Zn + 7.8gm P does NOT = 33.8 gm ZDDP.
ZDDP also consists of 4 alkyl groups, averaging about 6 carbons. So 9.4gm Zn goes into 90-100gm ZDDP.
I'd like to know the size and make-up of those alkyl groups (thermal stability) but they won't tell me.

Charlie
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05 Unimog U500/Unicat camper/Delvac 1 SHC ACEA E4/E5
09 BMW X5 35d/Delvac1 LE 5W30
88 Toyota Bandeirante OM314 motor D1 SHC
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#2652200 - 06/12/12 03:28 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: jsnyder49090]
[RT] ProjUltraZ Offline


Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 1053
Loc: Honolulu, HI
the table on this page looks like it might be from Redline themselves but not sure. it also states 33.8g total ZDDP

4 oz in 5 qts should boost modern oils to the 1250-1350 Zn Ph range

http://www.nitemareperformance.150m.com/ZDDP.html




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#2652436 - 06/12/12 07:04 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: jsnyder49090]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 16698
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Quote:
I brought it to Redline's attention that 16.6 gm S + 9.4gm Zn + 7.8gm P does NOT = 33.8 gm ZDDP.
ZDDP also consists of 4 alkyl groups, averaging about 6 carbons. So 9.4gm Zn goes into 90-100gm ZDDP.
I'd like to know the size and make-up of those alkyl groups (thermal stability) but they won't tell me.



Good observation, but there are different flavors of ZDDP with varying ratios of metals and phos.
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#2655032 - 06/15/12 11:45 AM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: jsnyder49090]
TallPaul Offline


Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 13085
Loc: By Detroit
This reminds me of the stuff Bruce371 gave me. It was essentially what the oil companies add to the base oil to make a finished oil. Zinc and phosphorus were at levels about 20,000 ppm. I still have half a quart after sharing it with Gary Allen (RIP). I usually add 2 oz of this stuff to a crankcase load.

I don't put any oil additive in the Ranger though because she is running Redline and there is plenty of zddp in Redline.
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#2679113 - 07/09/12 03:56 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: jsnyder49090]
[RT] ProjUltraZ Offline


Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 1053
Loc: Honolulu, HI
it's also really important to remember those numbers are IN Addition to the 780-850 ppm of Zn and Ph already in most oils. heres a better table http://www.nitemareperformance.150m.com/ZDDP.html

so 3 oz will get you 1200-1250 ppm like a race oil

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#2680610 - 07/11/12 09:39 AM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: MolaKule]
m37charlie Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 1246
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
I brought it to Redline's attention that 16.6 gm S + 9.4gm Zn + 7.8gm P does NOT = 33.8 gm ZDDP.
ZDDP also consists of 4 alkyl groups, averaging about 6 carbons. So 9.4gm Zn goes into 90-100gm ZDDP.
I'd like to know the size and make-up of those alkyl groups (thermal stability) but they won't tell me.



Good observation, but there are different flavors of ZDDP



Yes, as I stated, I would like to know the carbon group structure of the ZDDPs in their formulation.
That would tell me its' suitability for diesels vs. breakin for gasoline engine.

Charlie
_________________________
05 Unimog U500/Unicat camper/Delvac 1 SHC ACEA E4/E5
09 BMW X5 35d/Delvac1 LE 5W30
88 Toyota Bandeirante OM314 motor D1 SHC
52 Dodge M37/Hercules diesel

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#2681011 - 07/11/12 04:53 PM Re: Redline break in additive check out the MSDS [Re: jsnyder49090]
vo_marz Offline


Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 128
Loc: UK
the ZDDP in the break-in imho is pretty low in terms of durability
halved my OCI after i doped it to 1650 PPM levels .

differnt story when i changed to a high inherent ZDDP level oil (mobil racing 0W30/50)


Edited by vo_marz (07/11/12 04:53 PM)

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