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#2660423 - 06/20/12 10:56 PM excellent diesel oil comparison tests
RattleTrap Offline


Registered: 06/20/12
Posts: 8
Loc: Illinois Valley
Figure this is a good community to share this with...hopefully not a repost

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf

It made me switch from rotella t6 synthetic to valvoline 15-40 premium blue due to the grat additive package....I know its got that big Ol C on the bottle, but hopefully the Ol stroker likes it smile
_________________________
97 Single Cab F-X50 4x4 5 speed

Yes its got a hoodstack, and yes it blows coal....and no, you can't drive it.

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#2660445 - 06/20/12 11:52 PM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: RattleTrap]
07Wolfie Offline


Registered: 10/26/09
Posts: 106
Loc: Lake Elsinore, CA, US
Interesting article, but I think I missed the key part where he explained how a lube's performance in an engine can be determined by analyzing the add pack... doesn't the BITOG UOA section seem to contradict the whole premise of the article?
_________________________
-Josh
'07 Jetta, 2.5l, 5-speed MT
'96 Ford F-250 CC 4X4, 7.3L PSD, 5-speed MT
'06 Honda Element, 2.4l, AT

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#2660478 - 06/21/12 02:27 AM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: RattleTrap]
Texan4Life Offline


Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 2141
Loc: Texas
yeah according to the chart the VPB has about the same add pack as t6, but with a spash of boron and moly.

TDR puts out some great articles, unfortunately this one is a little dated.

T6 and VPB are now CJ-4 rated (most off the shelf HDEO is now), and as such the add packs have changed.

either way T6 and VPB are both high quality HDEOs
_________________________
2005 Dodge Ram 1500, 5.7L
[Current Fill: PP 0w-20][Baldwin B2-HPG]

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#2660492 - 06/21/12 04:39 AM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: RattleTrap]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5628
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
First, welcom to the site!

Now for a dose of reality ...
What you are reading there is typical uniformed bias. They are presuming there is direct relationship between inputs and outputs, as if there was a 100% assurance based upon that theorm.

As I've said hundreds (perhaps thousands) of times, inputs are interesting, but results are what matters.

When you run any of those fluids in "normal" comparitive circumstances, you'd find precious little if any statistical difference between their actual abililty to protect the engine from heat, wear, contamination control, etc.

VOAs are predictors; nothing more or less.
UOAs are results, and reveal clear performance capabilities.

I would challenge anyone to show me how the product ranking that the article touts can actaully be replicated in real world results. I'll cut right to the bone; I triple dog dare ya!



Edited by dnewton3 (06/21/12 04:42 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#2660510 - 06/21/12 05:56 AM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: dnewton3]
roadrunner1 Offline


Registered: 04/08/09
Posts: 800
Loc: oh
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
First, welcom to the site!

Now for a dose of reality ...
What you are reading there is typical uniformed bias. They are presuming there is direct relationship between inputs and outputs, as if there was a 100% assurance based upon that theorm.

As I've said hundreds (perhaps thousands) of times, inputs are interesting, but results are what matters.

When you run any of those fluids in "normal" comparitive circumstances, you'd find precious little if any statistical difference between their actual abililty to protect the engine from heat, wear, contamination control, etc.

VOAs are predictors; nothing more or less.
UOAs are results, and reveal clear performance capabilities.

I would challenge anyone to show me how the product ranking that the article touts can actaully be replicated in real world results. I'll cut right to the bone; I triple dog dare ya!



While I , for the most part, agree with most of what you post there is an asterisk needed here.
Having owned a 6.0 powerstroke since early '04, and prior to that 7.3 powerstrokes, lube choices, more specificially add-packs do matter. With the HPOP system these trucks employ many lube choices fall woefully short on going the manufacturers OCI's.

Our own HDEO UOA section is evidence enough to make my point.
I have a file full of UOA's that tend to agree with what will be found in the HDEO section.
In my own experience the Shell Rotella T line is an average oil, nothing special. It works just fine in almost all applications, but when you add in an HPOP system to the equation it falls flat on its face.

The number of people who had been using T 15w-40, and then experienced injector issues are alarming, and then switched to the 5w-40 variant and their problems went away.
These same guys all swear that you cannot use "dino" lube in these trucks, there is nothing further than the truth.

In my own truck I have used 10w-30 for the last several years without issue, stellar UOA's, and going the manufacturers OCI.

I guess this means I have sort of accepted the "triple dog dare". hahaha


Edited by roadrunner1 (06/21/12 06:01 AM)
Edit Reason: sp
_________________________
'07 f350 6.0

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#2660512 - 06/21/12 05:59 AM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: RattleTrap]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46691
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Old data too.

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#2660519 - 06/21/12 06:14 AM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: roadrunner1]
229 Offline


Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 714
Loc: Mid Atlantic
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Eneos

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#2661044 - 06/21/12 05:00 PM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: roadrunner1]
doitmyself Offline


Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4740
Loc: MI
Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
With the HPOP system these trucks employ many lube choices fall woefully short on going the manufacturers OCI's.

The number of people who had been using T 15w-40, and then experienced injector issues are alarming, and then switched to the 5w-40 variant and their problems went away.


Please clarify. First you say that additive packages make a difference in HPOP systems, then you give an example that suggests that viscosity differences affect oil choice for HPOP systems.

Plus, this statement from Stealth Pumps, makes me think there are many other variables that might affect oil longevity in modded engines. So, how safe are we to assume that oil formulation alone is the issue. Do the UOA's divulge any mods? I know nothing of this stuff, just saying.....

Per Stealth Pumps:
"The HUEI injection system that the 7.3L Powerstroke utilizes is a brilliant injection system, with one
flaw. If you change one of the injection system variables such as an aftermarket computer chip
and/or a set of aftermarket injectors the factory HPOP (High Pressure Oil Pump) cannot keep up
with the demand. The problem in making serious horsepower with the 7.3L Powerstroke is the lack
of oil volume supplied to the injectors when one of the injection system variables is pushed past the
stock parameters. Have you ever noticed that 50% to 75% percent throttle feels just as powerful as
putting your foot to the floor? That is because you are losing oil volume to the injectors."


Edited by doitmyself (06/21/12 05:12 PM)

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#2661158 - 06/21/12 06:41 PM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: doitmyself]
roadrunner1 Offline


Registered: 04/08/09
Posts: 800
Loc: oh
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
With the HPOP system these trucks employ many lube choices fall woefully short on going the manufacturers OCI's.

The number of people who had been using T 15w-40, and then experienced injector issues are alarming, and then switched to the 5w-40 variant and their problems went away.


Please clarify. First you say that additive packages make a difference in HPOP systems, then you give an example that suggests that viscosity differences affect oil choice for HPOP systems.

Plus, this statement from Stealth Pumps, makes me think there are many other variables that might affect oil longevity in modded engines. So, how safe are we to assume that oil formulation alone is the issue. Do the UOA's divulge any mods? I know nothing of this stuff, just saying.....

Per Stealth Pumps:
"The HUEI injection system that the 7.3L Powerstroke utilizes is a brilliant injection system, with one
flaw. If you change one of the injection system variables such as an aftermarket computer chip
and/or a set of aftermarket injectors the factory HPOP (High Pressure Oil Pump) cannot keep up
with the demand. The problem in making serious horsepower with the 7.3L Powerstroke is the lack
of oil volume supplied to the injectors when one of the injection system variables is pushed past the
stock parameters. Have you ever noticed that 50% to 75% percent throttle feels just as powerful as
putting your foot to the floor? That is because you are losing oil volume to the injectors."


The point I was trying to make is this; Rotella doesn't seem to hold up as well as some of the other oil choices, and it surely didn't in my application.
My appolgies for not making myself clear in this aspect. In my own UOA's 10w-30 does seem to hold up quite well.

In my application 15w-40 (Deere Plus 50 II) held up quite well with 7,500 mi. OCI, it never sheared out of grade and wear metal counts were always low. The reason I traveled down the avenue I did was after reading several hundred posts here and elsewhere I was looking for improved fuel economy when fuel prices spiked in '08.
I made the switch to Rotella 5w-40 for three consectitive runs and my UOA's were sub-par, increased wear metals and viscosity dropped to a low 30 wt. vs. the 15w-40 Deere lube I had been using for years.

Then after seeing the results Dnewton, among others were having with 10w-30 in truck applications I made the switch and will use this grade as long as I have a 6.0.
Wear metal counts dropped back to where they were prior to my use of 5w-40 and viscosity, although it did shear, has never went as low as it did with the Rotella.

So after trying to explain my story, in my use 10w-30 works very well for me, and I beleive the 6.0 almost prefers a 30wt. vs. a 40wt. Some additive packages seem to hold up much better than others in the HPOP system, I have my own UOA's as exibit A, among
the many others posted in the HDEO section.
I have never investigated the difference in additive packages in the Rotella 15w-40 vs. 5w-40, but for whatever reason the 6.0 guys seem to rave the 5w-40 version.
_________________________
'07 f350 6.0

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#2661245 - 06/21/12 07:58 PM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: RattleTrap]
doitmyself Offline


Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4740
Loc: MI
So, for you the John Deere Plus 50 II 10W30 might be nirvana?

Thanks. I see that there are two issues here, I think. For some, the switch from 15w40 to 5w40 solved the injector issues. But, you noticed that the Rotella 5w40 was giving less than excellent engine wear numbers, oil longevity, etc..

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#2661466 - 06/21/12 11:32 PM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: RattleTrap]
NavyDood Offline


Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 108
Loc: NW of DFW
That is an old article. I really like the TDR website and everything they do over there, but when that article came out I found it very biased since TDR articles are written by its fanbase of ppl or forum sponsors for their quarterly newsletter/mag.
_________________________
- Retired Navy Chief

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#2671120 - 07/02/12 06:43 AM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: roadrunner1]
beanoil Offline


Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1979
Loc: Midwest, Illinois
Originally Posted By: roadrunner1

My appolgies for not making myself clear in this aspect. In my own UOA's 10w-30 does seem to hold up quite well.

In my application 15w-40 (Deere Plus 50 II) held up quite well with 7,500 mi. OCI, it never sheared out of grade and wear metal counts were always low. The reason I traveled down the avenue I did was after reading several hundred posts here and elsewhere I was looking for improved fuel economy when fuel prices spiked in '08.

Then after seeing the results Dnewton, among others were having with 10w-30 in truck applications I made the switch and will use this grade as long as I have a 6.0.
Wear metal counts dropped back to where they were prior to my use of 5w-40 and viscosity, although it did shear, has never went as low as it did with the Rotella.

So after trying to explain my story, in my use 10w-30 works very well for me, and I beleive the 6.0 almost prefers a 30wt. vs. a 40wt. Some additive packages seem to hold up much better than others in the HPOP system, I have my own UOA's as exibit A, among
the many others posted in the HDEO section.
I have never investigated the difference in additive packages in the Rotella 15w-40 vs. 5w-40, but for whatever reason the 6.0 guys seem to rave the 5w-40 version.

What 10w30 specifically are you using? I have available to me, Chevron Delo, Rotella T3, or T5, and Brad Penn. Are you recommending John Deere?
_________________________
beanoil: Tough under heat, real dirty afterwards.

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#2671226 - 07/02/12 09:10 AM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: RattleTrap]
boxcartommie22 Offline


Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 2998
Loc: moutain country
old article..red line 15w40 has 90ppm moly in it now that was number 20 in the article
_________________________
2001 Lincoln Conti,RL,K&N,SS Filter,Lubegard,Archoil
2007 Grand Marquis,RL,K&N,SS Filter,Lubegard,Archoil
2010 Raptor,RL,SS Filter,Lubegard,Archoil

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#2672619 - 07/03/12 01:32 PM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: RattleTrap]
A_Harman Offline


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 4287
Loc: Michigan
Yes, it's an old article. If you want the VPB now that has the same specs as back then, you need to be buying VPB Classic, which is not CJ4 rated.
_________________________
1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck

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#2675461 - 07/06/12 08:04 AM Re: excellent diesel oil comparison tests [Re: RattleTrap]
GBL Offline


Registered: 05/11/12
Posts: 61
Loc: GA
So many opinions on all this. Do the engineers for the manufacturers go thru the same discussions/arguments as to what's best? Is there no consensus amoung them? Are we all floundering around that which has already been gone thru by those who should know so much?

When I bought my 2002 F150 the manual said to use 5W-20 which seemed really pushing the limit for me but I trusted them and used the stuff at OCIs of 5k thru 240k miles without problems before I sold it. At the end it was going thru 1.5 quarts between changes. Not bad, it made a believer out of me. Now my new 2011 F150 Ecoboost's manual says I'm to use 5W-30. Dang, I'd just become a believer in the 5W-20. Seems crazy, but I'll trust them again.

I do a great deal of work for the railroads who don't believe in trying anything new until it's been proven for about 30 years. When I was young it was tough for me to accept this policy, now that I'm older, I'm a believer. It's hard for me to flip flop on all of this and hear such varying opinions. Perhaps, it's not really so since each engine has minor nuances that need to be handled.

I'm ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Anyway, what I'm really struggling to know is what's the best cost/benefit oil for my 2007.5 6.7 Cummins with deletes that I push very hard pulling a 17,000# horse trailer all around the country?

Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to them. Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee: I want the truth!

...me, too.
_________________________
2007.5 6.7 Dodge/Cummins dually w/ 111k miles (mostly towing 16k trailer w/ four legged beasts that eat a lot)
2011 F150 Ecoboost 98k

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